WikiIslam - User contributions [en]

User talk:Axius

2016-06-25T17:37:34Z

Heitri2:

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[[User talk:Axius/Archive]]

== Testimonies and private emails ==

Hi AX. When someone submits a new testimony, could you check to see if they have left an email at the bottom? It is to do with [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Special:Form/newapostate#Notes Notes #1] on the submission form that says:

:''"Consider providing a contact email address at the bottom of your testimony. If an email address is not submitted, then there may be difficulty in getting information altered/removed later on if such a request is made. Your email address will be wiped from the page history before being added to the wiki mainspace, meaning only administrators will be able to view it."''

The best thing to do is delete the email address and then wipe it from the history with an explanation (e.g. "Email (as per Notes #1 on the form)") so we know where to look if they ever contact us. These emails could be very private and I don't think they should be left out in the public for too long. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 01:51, 6 December 2014 (PST)
:Yea you're right they should not be left there for long. I'll try to keep an eye on it. We do database compaction sometimes so that removes the deleted page so maybe an option is to keep the emails locally on the computer or saved in an email account in a draft email, or we just remove the requirement of adding the email, or we ask them to send us an email when they submit their testimony so we have it privately on record. That will be the easiest for us. On another note could you check your email? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 04:42, 6 December 2014 (PST)
::Thanks Ax, I'm reading it now. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 07:13, 6 December 2014 (PST)

== Dsarkosky ==

Hi Ax. That thing about "Porkistani/P*ki Muslims" was a mistake but not about 911. It's a racial slur (akin to the "N" word for blacks) against South Asians. This guy is clearly not an Arab, because an Arab would know the difference between my race and his. Mixing up Arabs with South Asians does happen, but it's usually troglodytes of European ancestry that do it. And it is mostly them who equate "p*ki" with "Muslim". I just thought I'd make you aware because I think America is the exception, and that word is not considered an insult over there. So obviously anything submitted to the site (even comments on talk pages) that contains that word would be going against the policies. Actually, any insults at all against race/ethnicity/nationality (e.g. "Porkistani") is against the policies.

Anyways, that "testimony" as a whole is crazy. Wow. So many calls for genocide in such a few amount of words. And lol at the "You need to eat bacon... to prove that you are no longer a Muslim" line. I'm a vegan, so with that line of thinking, it would mean that I must still be an under-cover Muslim. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 19:42, 3 January 2015 (PST)
:LOL. I just did an IP search and I was right. Whoever submitted that testimony did it from Western Europe. That's a long way from Oman (where he claims to originate) and Hong Kong (where he claims to now live). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 19:49, 3 January 2015 (PST)
::Yea he mixed them up (said it was Pakistanis who did 9/11 when it was mostly people from Saudi arabia). Yea the bacon/pork requirement was strange. Oh I see so the IP did not match the locations. Good catch. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 12:37, 4 January 2015 (PST)

==Mia Khalifa==
Hi Axius, can we have an article on Mia Khalifa? She is in the news.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 10:53, 10 January 2015 (PST)
:If it was appropriate for the site sure, but we would need someone to do it. According to Wikipedia she is/was not a Muslim ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia_Khalifa] unverified) so if its thats true we would probably not have the article. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 18:52, 10 January 2015 (PST)
::Yeah. Apparently, she was born into a Muslim family but is a Christian now. So a page about a porn star who was simply born to Muslims wouldn't be appropriate. There are a lot of Middle-Eastern pornstars, and it's a fair bet that the majority of them are from a Muslim background. This is nothing extraordinary. At best, the Freedom of Speech (links) page should have a link added under the US section. But nothing more. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 01:57, 11 January 2015 (PST)

== Muhammad and Aisha Task ==

Hi Ax. I don't understand why you added [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=WikiIslam:Tasks&curid=7002&diff=111648&oldid=111431 this] task. I think it is a pretty terrible idea. Those two pages have two distinct purposes, so merging them makes no sense. It would in fact make it harder for readers to use to counter Muslim arguments, make the page ridiculously long, AND make our other pedophilia pages redundant (if you want to merge the "Refutation of Modern Apologetics Against Aisha's Age" with the "Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha" page, then why not also merge the [[Aisha_Age_of_Consummation|Aisha's Age of Consummation]]" page with the "Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha" page? It's the exact same situation).

The [[Refutation_of_Modern_Apologetics_Against_Aishas_Age|Refutation of Modern Apologetics Against Aisha's Age]] page refutes only a single, stand-alone apologetic argument. This argument is basically, '''"Some Islamic sources say Aisha was aged 12, 14, 15, 17, 18 and 21 when Muhammad had sex with her"'''. If you look at the [[Responses_to_Apologetics_-_Muhammad_and_Aisha|Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha]] page, this is [[Responses_to_Apologetics_-_Muhammad_and_Aisha#Some_Islamic_sources_say_Aisha_was_aged_12.2C_14.2C_15.2C_17.2C_18_and_21_when_Muhammad_had_sex_with_her|argument number six]]. So basically what your new task is saying is to copy/paste that detailed, long and well-crafted stand-alone article under argument number six. I don't understand why you would even consider that a viable option. That one argument (that the hadith say Aisha was older) is practically as long as the page you want to merge it with, and that page contains 20+ different arguments.

Think about it from a reader's view: that's like a science teacher (WikiIslam) having a creationist student (Muslim) question one single aspect of evolutionary theory (Muhammad's pedophilia), but rather than give a detailed rebuttal to that single objection (Aisha's age according to hadith), the teacher slaps a 1000 page encyclopedia about the evolutionary theory in front of him and tells him to find the answer in there somewhere.

And like I mentioned earlier, merging this article also begs the question; why not merge every page concerning Mo and Aisha into that one page? [[Responses_to_Apologetics_-_Muhammad_and_Aisha#The_hadiths_do_not_say_Muhammad_had_sex_with_Aisha_when_she_was_9._They_have_been_poorly_translated|Argument number 4]] is '''"The hadiths do not say Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was 9. They have been poorly translated"''', so why not delete the "[[The Meaning of Consummate]]" page and copy/paste that into "Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha" too? [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 21:29, 1 March 2015 (PST)
:The only reason I can think of is that both titles have similar words in them ("Refutation/Response" and "Apologetics"). If that's the case, then only a name change is needed to more accurately reflect the topics of the pages. TBH not only does "Refutation of Modern Apologetics Against Aisha's Age" need its name changed, but so does the "Aisha's Age of Consummation" page. I remember you previously said you preferred to keep the title as it is simply because that's an early article. However, the "Aisha's Age of Consummation" page has a misleading title as its content is not really about Aisha's age of consummation. It's about whether or not Mo can be classed as a pedophile. "Refutation of Modern Apologetics Against Aisha's Age" should be renamed "Aisha's Age of Consummation" because that IS the actual topic of the page. And "Aisha's Age of Consummation" should be renamed "Muhammad and Pedophilia" or something like that. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 21:42, 1 March 2015 (PST)
::"Muhammad and the Clinical Definition of Pedophilia" is a good name. I'll rename these pages when I can. There is a fair bit of redirecting that I will also have to do. Also wanted to add that if I am correct about the reason, then as administrators we must base our decisions off more than a cursory glance at the title of a page. A merge of those two pages would have big repercussions, not least to the logical structure and quality of the site. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 21:49, 1 March 2015 (PST)
:::Oh. Yea I totally missed that the title was "Responses to ... ''Aisha's Age''". So it was only the issue of her age for that title. I think whoever was doing the task would have noticed this before they started the task. Thanks for noticing that. I'll look into this again later.
:::Thanks for fixing those redirects. I wish there was a bot that could fix it. I'll make that a task in a new section for things that could be done by bots. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 02:19, 2 March 2015 (PST)
::::Cool. Yeah, sometimes finding where exactly the inline links are within a page can be hard. You have to go over the page text a couple of times before noticing it. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 02:36, 2 March 2015 (PST)
:::::I do a CTRL-F for the link's partial/full name or the page's name. Google chrome has good search highlighting features. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 03:10, 2 March 2015 (PST)
::::::Thanks Ax. I just tried that and it works great. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 16:12, 2 March 2015 (PST)

==Finished Translating Health effects Dress==

Hi! I think I've finished translating the article [[Health Effects of Islamic Dress]] into Spanish as [[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Efectos sobre la Salud de la Vestimenta Islámica]]. Any suggestions will be welcomed for next tasks. Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Charles69|Charles69]] ([[User talk:Charles69|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Charles69|contribs]]) {{#if:| |}} ([[WikiIslam:Signatures#Signing_Posts|Remember to sign your comments]]) 
:Excellent. Thanks! I will wait for Sahab for finalizing this. [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/72_Virgins 72 virgins] is a great choice and any others from the [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Translations#Articles_to_Translate list]
:Sahab, help! I would try to do it but I'll miss some [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/User_talk:Sahab#Translation_steps steps.] --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:34, 18 March 2015 (PDT)
:I'll go for those chicks ;).--[[User:Charles69|Charles69]] ([[User talk:Charles69|talk]]) 05:57, 18 March 2015 (PDT)

== QURAN ERRORS ==

Quran verse describes the sun and the moon in parallel orbits, as Quran verse 36:40 says, "It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming."
'''Quran never ever said that, the earth moves or travels.'''

See Also: http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/Erroneous-Science-and-Contradictions-in-Quran.htm AND http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Qur%27anic_scientific_foreknowledge (THIS SITE EXPLAINS THE CLAIMED FOREKNOWLEDE IS FALSE AND ALSO GIVES REFERENCES TO OTHER SITES)--[[User:AAA|AAA]] ([[User talk:AAA|talk]]) 15:27, 1 June 2015 (PDT)
:We have this article on the topic. Check it out: [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Geocentrism_and_the_Quran].
:Thanks for the links. I did not know about the "heavy clouds" errors in the Quran. I'll add it to our tasks page to review and add if suitable. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 19:34, 1 June 2015 (PDT)

::Islam says that even the almighty Allah can change his mind. It's contradictory because Islam claims Allah knows and creates everything.--[[User:AAA|AAA]] ([[User talk:AAA|talk]]) 10:27, 5 July 2015 (PDT)

== Vacuum ==

*Dr. Keith Moore and the Islamic additions (in Uzbek)

:Hi! How are you doing? Excuse my ignorance, I'm having trouble with the placement of this quote. Please, help[http://s17.postimg.org/5je8jiv7j/quote_move.jpg] Source: [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Doktor_Keyt_Mur_va_Islomiy_embriologiya] --[[User:Vacuum|Vacuum]] ([[User talk:Vacuum|talk]]) 20:18, 13 June 2015 :(PDT)
::Sorry I've been more busy than usual. Give me a few days and I'll look into it. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:09, 14 June 2015 (PDT)
:::I got it. Thank you. --[[User:Vacuum|Vacuum]] ([[User talk:Vacuum|talk]]) 05:53, 15 June 2015 (PDT)

* Ideas

:I think we should create a (hub) page on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia/ Pareidolia] and attach references to Islamic "sign miracles", such as [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Praying_Tree]; [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Trees_Tomatoes_and_Bronchi_Saying_Shahadah]; [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Allah_Written_In_or_On_Various_Things]; --[[User:Vacuum|Vacuum]] ([[User talk:Vacuum|talk]]) 09:45, 16 June 2015 (PDT)
::We have it: [[Pareidolia]]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 02:26, 24 June 2015 (PDT)

== Sun is folded claim ==

Hi again. I went through tafsirs for "The Sun is folded up/it is flat disk" claim which was challenged by somebody on the scientific errors page some time ago. The tafsirs make even more errors on this topic [http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=109&tSoraNo=81&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2] [http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1387&Itemid=137]. So this can go into the QHS article? and link the relevant section of Scientific Errors in Quran to it? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 01:45, 26 July 2015 (PDT)
:You can add it to the Tasks page or a Sandbox page. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 06:47, 26 July 2015 (PDT)

== Spanish translations ==

Hi! I asked this to Sahab before but since he has been inactive, I ask you to check these two articles already finished: [[WikiIslam:Sandbox:Versos coránicos malinterpretados|Misinterpreted Qur'anic Verses]] and [[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Pedofilia en el Corán|Pedophilia in the Qur'an]]. Thanks! [[User:Aelu|Aelu]] ([[User talk:Aelu|talk]]) 09:03, 28 August 2015 (PDT)
:I probably didnt do as good as a job that Sahab does but I think I got it right: [[Pedofilia en el Corán]] and [[Versos coránicos malinterpretados]]. Thank you!
:I noticed these two words spelled differently. I assume thats how its supposed to be: Coránicas [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Art%C3%ADculos_en_espa%C3%B1ol_-_Articles_in_Spanish] 2nd bullet / coránicos [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Versos_cor%C3%A1nicos_malinterpretados] (also note, small capitals is used for the 2nd word). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 17:41, 28 August 2015 (PDT)
::Yeah, they're spelled correctly, and thank you heheh :) -[[User:Aelu|Aelu]] ([[User talk:Aelu|talk]]) 16:24, 29 August 2015 (PDT)

== Italian==

Hi Axius, I've translated a new article, it's the "fastest growing religion".
:Ok. thanks. I think it needs this section [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Le_72_vergini#Vedi_anche Vedi anche] to be updated like other articles. Also it needs the Italian category.

:Also I think this section is not complete [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/La_religione_che_cresce_di_pi%C3%B9#Analisi]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 10:40, 19 September 2015 (PDT)

Hi Axius, I just amended the two articles, but I don't know how to translate the short phrase near the hub content in these articles, in the section "Vedi anche"...
Thank you very much for underlining my errors and oversights.
:Ok. I made a few other [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=La_religione_che_cresce_di_pi%C3%B9&type=revision&diff=112971&oldid=112966 fixes]. I will add these steps to the Check-list. I was able to see the fixes after looking at another previously translated [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Le_72_vergini article] and comparing the main elements (headings, formatting etc).
:I have linked the article in the various places now (main page, Italian articles and added a link from the English article).
:For References, is it "Riferimenti" or "Referenze"? The first term is used here [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Le_72_vergini]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:29, 20 September 2015 (PDT)

Hi, both of the terms could be used, but in this case it's better to use "Riferimenti". I'll use it in future articles.
I've also translated the article of "Taqiyya". but I can't translate the "Lying (Primary Sources)" of that page.
But.. it seems that I've accidentaly deleted (?) the original in english...
:The Italian version is saved and it can be moved into a new title called [[Taqiyya-it]] (following the example of [[Sunnah-fr]]). I have created the new page now.
:For 'Lying (Primary Sources)' we can make a new heading called 'Inglese' and list the EN link there. I did that too. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 16:19, 21 September 2015 (PDT)

== Translation of Pagan origins of Islam ==

Hi, I translate the article "Pagan Origins of Islam" here in my sandbox : http://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Maxime/Sandbox_1, if you can tell me if the article is good or to correct, thanks. --[[User:Maxime|Maxime]] ([[User talk:Maxime|talk]]) 13:22, 19 September 2015 (PDT)
:Looks good, I made a few fixes [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=User%3AMaxime%2FSandbox_1&type=revision&diff=112978&oldid=112956 diff]. I added the translation links and category. I also changed the 'Références' heading after seeing thats the word used in a previous translation. Is that correct, or should it be 'References'?
: Let me know the final Page title and I will move it to the new title and make the various links. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:55, 20 September 2015 (PDT)
::Hi, yes you were right to correct "Reference" to "Références", I made the last corrections to franchify the whole article. It is now ready and the title of translation will be simply "Les origines païennes de l'Islam", thanks. --[[User:Maxime|Maxime]] ([[User talk:Maxime|talk]]) 05:20, 21 September 2015 (PDT)
:::Ok. I created the page and linked it now. Thank you! --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 16:34, 21 September 2015 (PDT)
==Authorise==
Please authorise my edit here: http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Rape_in_Islam&action=history

I added a ref and archived it. |You will find it useful--[[Special:Contributions/92.12.197.254|92.12.197.254]] 11:26, 27 September 2015 (PDT)
:Does that hadith add something new to that page? I see there are other hadiths that mention the same kind of thing (an explanation about 4:24). So could you go over the page and look at the existing sources and compare it to the hadith (Sunan Abu Dawud - Book 12, Hadith 110) you're linking? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:40, 27 September 2015 (PDT)
:::That hadith was missing the source and translation. I gave a reference. Thats all--[[Special:Contributions/92.12.197.254|92.12.197.254]] 10:58, 3 October 2015 (PDT)
::::I've talked [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/User_talk:Sahab#Sunnah.com] to Sahab about sunnah.com and he said we can use it if no other source is available. So I would rather use that instead of quranx.com. We have to use websites that Muslims would be less likely to reject (and those with more authority) so for that reason we should use sunnah.com. I think this is the link for that hadith [http://sunnah.com/abudawud/12/110].
::::I agree it would be nice to add the reference (because USC.edu now is missing some of the hadith pages). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 16:57, 3 October 2015 (PDT)

== Earth shape ==

Muslims have cited the following Qur'anic verse as miraculous, "After that (Allah) spread the Earth out (dahaha: from the verb 'daha')" [Quran 79:30]. This verse has been interpreted by many Muslims as foreshadowing the concept that the figure of the Earth has an oblate ellipsoid shape. Kamel Ben Salem's explanation for this is that "the ancient exegetes had earlier explained the Arabic verb (dahaha) by (has flattened it)" but that "the origin of this verb is found in the word (Ud-hiya)", which means "egg of ostrich", thus "the Earth would look like an ostrich’s egg" which is accurate with scientific data that confirms that the Earth is slightly flat at the poles very similarly to the shape of the egg of an ostrich. Rashad Khalifa alternatively translated the verse as: "he made the earth egg-shaped." However, this Muslim argument for scientific foreknowledge in the Qur'an is built on a popular misconception known as the "Myth of the Flat Earth". Knowledge of a spherical Earth has existed since the ancient Greeks. Hence the argument's attempt to present this piece of information as foreknowledge is inaccurate. Also the Earth is an oblate spheroid whereas an ostrich egg is a '''prolate''' spheroid.

The claim that the term "daha" refers to an "ostrich egg" is also disputed. The premise that the term "ud-hiya" is the root of the word "daha" is inconsistent with the fact that most Arabic words have a triconsonantal root. This premise is also not supported by the classical lexicons of the Arabic language. Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon, for example, reports that the term "daha" is rooted in the triconsonantal root, dal-ha-waw. The term "ud-hiya", on the other hand, is only a cognate of the word "daha". It is also noted in the entry for the term "daha" in Lane's lexicon that the word is used to signify any surface that has been spread out or flattened. Lane's lexicon also provides an example of the usage of the word with the following statement, "also, said of an ostrich, he expanded, and made wide, with his foot, or leg, the place where he was about to deposit his eggs". In a consistent manner, "udhiya" is defined as "The place of the laying of eggs, and of the hatching thereof, of the ostrich in the sand". It is not known whether this example, involving an ostrich and its egg, is the cause of the mistranslation of "daha" as an "ostrich egg".--[[User:AAA|AAA]] ([[User talk:AAA|talk]]) 12:34, 31 October 2015 (PDT)
:Ok, you can put this on a temporary user sandbox page for later use. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:09, 1 November 2015 (PST)

::Here's a source for it: http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/earth_egg.html --[[User:AAA|AAA]] ([[User talk:AAA|talk]]) 08:55, 1 November 2015 (PST)

== Joining the team translator (Indonesia) ==

Hi Axius,

Thank you. Yes, I think that's the approach I need. I apologize for the editing and re-editing unconvinience, I'm trying to improve my lack of vocabularies but the meaning is alike over time. I just want to make the message got better, comprehensively understandable for readers. Next time I'll make sure the edit is fix and final for review.
Anyway, this far I can see a translation into Bahasa Indonesia here but the task is not completed yet for public view. While actually in my priority ofcourse, regarding the number of Indonesian muslims majority don't speak English, please, would you consider opening sub domain for it? I will learn to contribute the translation into Bahasa; Please kindly advice.
Also thanks for all the good works you and the team have done, Wikiislam has been my prime preference all these time.

Sincerely,
Gon
:Ok, no problem. Yea sure, you can edit the page I linked for your testimony. You could edit that page in English where you could write a short account and then you could create another page in Indonesian (bahasa) e.g. [[User:Goncandu/Mengapa saya meninggalkan Islam]] (I used Google translate for 'Why I left Islam') and write your story in much more detail in Bahasa.
:We only have one page in Indonesian ([http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Sanggahan_Terhadap_Apologis_Muslim_Mengenai_Usia_Aisha]) which is sad considering its a big Muslim country, one of the most populous in fact. It is critical to reach people there.
:A sub-domain can opened after 25 translated articles and someone who can take care of the site (more information here [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Frequently_Asked_Questions#I_want_to_become_an_admin_and_open_up_my_own_language.27s_sub-domain._Can_I_start_one.3F]).
:For now just focus on completing the article you're working on, and the testimonies of leaving Islam (if you dont want to write them thats fine too; whatever you want to do) and next choose an article you'd like to translate ([[WikiIslam:Translations#Articles_to_Translate]]) and let me know its title and I can guide you from there. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 09:05, 14 November 2015 (PST)

Hi

I find this labyrinth depressing. It is difficult to navigate. I can't save as I go along translating unlike all common word editors. If this feature is available I sure don't see it. It would be good if translators like me can focus on the translation works only and not spending so much time trying to understand rules and regulations (which is not that clear), functions and searching and clicking everywhere to find things. Maybe it is just me but ... Sorry. I was trying to be honest.
:I'll help you with any questions you have. You can save as you go. I had a question, what article do you want to translate? I will then give you further directions.
:I want to stress that the translation must be accurate and match the english version. This is very important. I'll quote it:
::''One of the key rules to follow when translating these pre-sub-domain articles is that they should always remain absolutely faithful to the original English work, retaining their scholarly tone and information. The reason for accurate translations to begin with is that it allows new editors in that particular language to understand the style, tone, and quality that is expected in all languages.''
: --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:17, 18 November 2015 (PST)

==i don't know how to execute the points 6 and 7 of the translation help guide==

salute axius, sorry to bother you but i only know you and two other members here because you've participated into my page.
anyway i have translated the article "invitation to islam prior to violence" in italian. i have tried to make a page out of it but i am uncertain about the result.
the page is here: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Invito_a_convertirsi_all%27islam_prima_dell%27attacco

but as you can see it still appears that " wikiislam: " in front of the title plus i don't know how to link it to the other versions nor how to insert it into the italian net of articles. [[User:Neceseco|Neceseco]] ([[User talk:Neceseco|talk]]) 06:16, 24 November 2015 (PST)
:Thanks for the translation. I've added the links etc. I havent added the links yet for these two pages in the 'translations' section: [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Pozvani_k_Islamu_pred_pouzitim_nasili], [http://bg.wikiislam.net/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8_%D0%B7%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%BC%D0%B0,_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%82_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE?rdfrom=http%3A%2F%2Fwikiislam.net%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3D%25D0%259F%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B8_%25D0%25B7%25D0%25B0_%25D0%25BF%25D1%2580%25D0%25B8%25D0%25B5%25D0%25BC%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B5_%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0_%25D0%25B8%25D1%2581%25D0%25BB%25D1%258F%25D0%25BC%25D0%25B0%2C_%25D0%25BA%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B8%25D1%2582%25D0%25BE_%25D0%25BF%25D1%2580%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B4%25D1%2585%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B6%25D0%25B4%25D0%25B0%25D1%2582_%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0%25D1%2581%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BB%25D0%25B8%25D0%25B5%25D1%2582%25D0%25BE%26redirect%3Dno]. For adding those links we need to find out what they call 'Italian' in their language and to find that we could see another article in their language.

:The link to the page is:
::<nowiki>* [[Invito_a_convertirsi_all_islam_prima_dell_attacco|Target language]]</nowiki>.

:thank you. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:12, 25 November 2015 (PST)

thank you axius. can you tell me how you fixed the "wikiislam" problem? so that maybe next time i will not bother you? [[User:Neceseco|Neceseco]] ([[User talk:Neceseco|talk]]) 01:06, 26 November 2015 (PST)
:The article just needs to be moved to the main space when its complete. There's a 'move' dropdown near the top right. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 01:36, 26 November 2015 (PST)

==i get blocked every other day?==

sorry to bother you once again, unfortunately i still don't get how to use this site. couldn't there be a chat or a page for problems like this? i don't know how to contact other participants to ask for help nor where to display some proposal. when you answer i don't get any notification and have to go around and search for your response.

anyway: lately i've been blocked frequently, it says to me that some bot users have used my IP address to damage the site. how does it work? is it a dangerous thing for me? how can i avoid it? i want to continue to translate the site.
:We'll look into it. The site's setup has to be fixed. The new owners are working on it. I think I know what the problem is. So I'll let you know once this has been fixed. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 06:56, 11 December 2015 (EST)

== New translation ==

Hi!
I have comleted translation of article Health Effects of Islamic Dress to Polish. I think I have done everything as in instruction. It should be ready to be viewed. Waiting for your feedback
Greetings
Mystery lady
:Ok, I added it. Looks good on first glance. Thanks. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 19:12, 15 February 2016 (EST)

== Timeline - Muhammad - Polish translation ==

Hi,

Some time ago I translated the timeline of Muhammad (https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Sandbox/%C5%BBycie_mahometa_-_chronologia). It was marked as incomplete because of the "Translations" links so I changed them. Now the article is still marked as incomplete. Could you tell me what else I need to do so that it is visible to everybody?
:I think the title needs to be capitalized when you move it to the main space and then link it on a new Polish translations page that follows the format of other language pages [https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Clanky_v_ceskem_jazyce_-_Articles_in_Czech]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 21:28, 31 March 2016 (EDT)

User talk:Axius

2016-06-25T17:37:23Z

Heitri2:

[[Image:Crystal Clear action edit add.png|15px]] {{plainlink|url={{SERVER}}/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Axius&action=edit&section=new '''Leave a message'''}}

[[User talk:Axius/Archive]]

== Testimonies and private emails ==

Hi AX. When someone submits a new testimony, could you check to see if they have left an email at the bottom? It is to do with [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Special:Form/newapostate#Notes Notes #1] on the submission form that says:

:''"Consider providing a contact email address at the bottom of your testimony. If an email address is not submitted, then there may be difficulty in getting information altered/removed later on if such a request is made. Your email address will be wiped from the page history before being added to the wiki mainspace, meaning only administrators will be able to view it."''

The best thing to do is delete the email address and then wipe it from the history with an explanation (e.g. "Email (as per Notes #1 on the form)") so we know where to look if they ever contact us. These emails could be very private and I don't think they should be left out in the public for too long. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 01:51, 6 December 2014 (PST)
:Yea you're right they should not be left there for long. I'll try to keep an eye on it. We do database compaction sometimes so that removes the deleted page so maybe an option is to keep the emails locally on the computer or saved in an email account in a draft email, or we just remove the requirement of adding the email, or we ask them to send us an email when they submit their testimony so we have it privately on record. That will be the easiest for us. On another note could you check your email? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 04:42, 6 December 2014 (PST)
::Thanks Ax, I'm reading it now. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 07:13, 6 December 2014 (PST)

== Dsarkosky ==

Hi Ax. That thing about "Porkistani/P*ki Muslims" was a mistake but not about 911. It's a racial slur (akin to the "N" word for blacks) against South Asians. This guy is clearly not an Arab, because an Arab would know the difference between my race and his. Mixing up Arabs with South Asians does happen, but it's usually troglodytes of European ancestry that do it. And it is mostly them who equate "p*ki" with "Muslim". I just thought I'd make you aware because I think America is the exception, and that word is not considered an insult over there. So obviously anything submitted to the site (even comments on talk pages) that contains that word would be going against the policies. Actually, any insults at all against race/ethnicity/nationality (e.g. "Porkistani") is against the policies.

Anyways, that "testimony" as a whole is crazy. Wow. So many calls for genocide in such a few amount of words. And lol at the "You need to eat bacon... to prove that you are no longer a Muslim" line. I'm a vegan, so with that line of thinking, it would mean that I must still be an under-cover Muslim. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 19:42, 3 January 2015 (PST)
:LOL. I just did an IP search and I was right. Whoever submitted that testimony did it from Western Europe. That's a long way from Oman (where he claims to originate) and Hong Kong (where he claims to now live). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 19:49, 3 January 2015 (PST)
::Yea he mixed them up (said it was Pakistanis who did 9/11 when it was mostly people from Saudi arabia). Yea the bacon/pork requirement was strange. Oh I see so the IP did not match the locations. Good catch. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 12:37, 4 January 2015 (PST)

==Mia Khalifa==
Hi Axius, can we have an article on Mia Khalifa? She is in the news.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 10:53, 10 January 2015 (PST)
:If it was appropriate for the site sure, but we would need someone to do it. According to Wikipedia she is/was not a Muslim ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia_Khalifa] unverified) so if its thats true we would probably not have the article. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 18:52, 10 January 2015 (PST)
::Yeah. Apparently, she was born into a Muslim family but is a Christian now. So a page about a porn star who was simply born to Muslims wouldn't be appropriate. There are a lot of Middle-Eastern pornstars, and it's a fair bet that the majority of them are from a Muslim background. This is nothing extraordinary. At best, the Freedom of Speech (links) page should have a link added under the US section. But nothing more. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 01:57, 11 January 2015 (PST)

== Muhammad and Aisha Task ==

Hi Ax. I don't understand why you added [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=WikiIslam:Tasks&curid=7002&diff=111648&oldid=111431 this] task. I think it is a pretty terrible idea. Those two pages have two distinct purposes, so merging them makes no sense. It would in fact make it harder for readers to use to counter Muslim arguments, make the page ridiculously long, AND make our other pedophilia pages redundant (if you want to merge the "Refutation of Modern Apologetics Against Aisha's Age" with the "Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha" page, then why not also merge the [[Aisha_Age_of_Consummation|Aisha's Age of Consummation]]" page with the "Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha" page? It's the exact same situation).

The [[Refutation_of_Modern_Apologetics_Against_Aishas_Age|Refutation of Modern Apologetics Against Aisha's Age]] page refutes only a single, stand-alone apologetic argument. This argument is basically, '''"Some Islamic sources say Aisha was aged 12, 14, 15, 17, 18 and 21 when Muhammad had sex with her"'''. If you look at the [[Responses_to_Apologetics_-_Muhammad_and_Aisha|Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha]] page, this is [[Responses_to_Apologetics_-_Muhammad_and_Aisha#Some_Islamic_sources_say_Aisha_was_aged_12.2C_14.2C_15.2C_17.2C_18_and_21_when_Muhammad_had_sex_with_her|argument number six]]. So basically what your new task is saying is to copy/paste that detailed, long and well-crafted stand-alone article under argument number six. I don't understand why you would even consider that a viable option. That one argument (that the hadith say Aisha was older) is practically as long as the page you want to merge it with, and that page contains 20+ different arguments.

Think about it from a reader's view: that's like a science teacher (WikiIslam) having a creationist student (Muslim) question one single aspect of evolutionary theory (Muhammad's pedophilia), but rather than give a detailed rebuttal to that single objection (Aisha's age according to hadith), the teacher slaps a 1000 page encyclopedia about the evolutionary theory in front of him and tells him to find the answer in there somewhere.

And like I mentioned earlier, merging this article also begs the question; why not merge every page concerning Mo and Aisha into that one page? [[Responses_to_Apologetics_-_Muhammad_and_Aisha#The_hadiths_do_not_say_Muhammad_had_sex_with_Aisha_when_she_was_9._They_have_been_poorly_translated|Argument number 4]] is '''"The hadiths do not say Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was 9. They have been poorly translated"''', so why not delete the "[[The Meaning of Consummate]]" page and copy/paste that into "Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha" too? [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 21:29, 1 March 2015 (PST)
:The only reason I can think of is that both titles have similar words in them ("Refutation/Response" and "Apologetics"). If that's the case, then only a name change is needed to more accurately reflect the topics of the pages. TBH not only does "Refutation of Modern Apologetics Against Aisha's Age" need its name changed, but so does the "Aisha's Age of Consummation" page. I remember you previously said you preferred to keep the title as it is simply because that's an early article. However, the "Aisha's Age of Consummation" page has a misleading title as its content is not really about Aisha's age of consummation. It's about whether or not Mo can be classed as a pedophile. "Refutation of Modern Apologetics Against Aisha's Age" should be renamed "Aisha's Age of Consummation" because that IS the actual topic of the page. And "Aisha's Age of Consummation" should be renamed "Muhammad and Pedophilia" or something like that. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 21:42, 1 March 2015 (PST)
::"Muhammad and the Clinical Definition of Pedophilia" is a good name. I'll rename these pages when I can. There is a fair bit of redirecting that I will also have to do. Also wanted to add that if I am correct about the reason, then as administrators we must base our decisions off more than a cursory glance at the title of a page. A merge of those two pages would have big repercussions, not least to the logical structure and quality of the site. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 21:49, 1 March 2015 (PST)
:::Oh. Yea I totally missed that the title was "Responses to ... ''Aisha's Age''". So it was only the issue of her age for that title. I think whoever was doing the task would have noticed this before they started the task. Thanks for noticing that. I'll look into this again later.
:::Thanks for fixing those redirects. I wish there was a bot that could fix it. I'll make that a task in a new section for things that could be done by bots. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 02:19, 2 March 2015 (PST)
::::Cool. Yeah, sometimes finding where exactly the inline links are within a page can be hard. You have to go over the page text a couple of times before noticing it. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 02:36, 2 March 2015 (PST)
:::::I do a CTRL-F for the link's partial/full name or the page's name. Google chrome has good search highlighting features. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 03:10, 2 March 2015 (PST)
::::::Thanks Ax. I just tried that and it works great. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 16:12, 2 March 2015 (PST)

==Finished Translating Health effects Dress==

Hi! I think I've finished translating the article [[Health Effects of Islamic Dress]] into Spanish as [[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Efectos sobre la Salud de la Vestimenta Islámica]]. Any suggestions will be welcomed for next tasks. Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Charles69|Charles69]] ([[User talk:Charles69|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Charles69|contribs]]) {{#if:| |}} ([[WikiIslam:Signatures#Signing_Posts|Remember to sign your comments]]) 
:Excellent. Thanks! I will wait for Sahab for finalizing this. [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/72_Virgins 72 virgins] is a great choice and any others from the [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Translations#Articles_to_Translate list]
:Sahab, help! I would try to do it but I'll miss some [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/User_talk:Sahab#Translation_steps steps.] --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:34, 18 March 2015 (PDT)
:I'll go for those chicks ;).--[[User:Charles69|Charles69]] ([[User talk:Charles69|talk]]) 05:57, 18 March 2015 (PDT)

== QURAN ERRORS ==

Quran verse describes the sun and the moon in parallel orbits, as Quran verse 36:40 says, "It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming."
'''Quran never ever said that, the earth moves or travels.'''

See Also: http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/Erroneous-Science-and-Contradictions-in-Quran.htm AND http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Qur%27anic_scientific_foreknowledge (THIS SITE EXPLAINS THE CLAIMED FOREKNOWLEDE IS FALSE AND ALSO GIVES REFERENCES TO OTHER SITES)--[[User:AAA|AAA]] ([[User talk:AAA|talk]]) 15:27, 1 June 2015 (PDT)
:We have this article on the topic. Check it out: [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Geocentrism_and_the_Quran].
:Thanks for the links. I did not know about the "heavy clouds" errors in the Quran. I'll add it to our tasks page to review and add if suitable. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 19:34, 1 June 2015 (PDT)

::Islam says that even the almighty Allah can change his mind. It's contradictory because Islam claims Allah knows and creates everything.--[[User:AAA|AAA]] ([[User talk:AAA|talk]]) 10:27, 5 July 2015 (PDT)

== Vacuum ==

*Dr. Keith Moore and the Islamic additions (in Uzbek)

:Hi! How are you doing? Excuse my ignorance, I'm having trouble with the placement of this quote. Please, help[http://s17.postimg.org/5je8jiv7j/quote_move.jpg] Source: [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Doktor_Keyt_Mur_va_Islomiy_embriologiya] --[[User:Vacuum|Vacuum]] ([[User talk:Vacuum|talk]]) 20:18, 13 June 2015 :(PDT)
::Sorry I've been more busy than usual. Give me a few days and I'll look into it. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:09, 14 June 2015 (PDT)
:::I got it. Thank you. --[[User:Vacuum|Vacuum]] ([[User talk:Vacuum|talk]]) 05:53, 15 June 2015 (PDT)

* Ideas

:I think we should create a (hub) page on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia/ Pareidolia] and attach references to Islamic "sign miracles", such as [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Praying_Tree]; [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Trees_Tomatoes_and_Bronchi_Saying_Shahadah]; [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Allah_Written_In_or_On_Various_Things]; --[[User:Vacuum|Vacuum]] ([[User talk:Vacuum|talk]]) 09:45, 16 June 2015 (PDT)
::We have it: [[Pareidolia]]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 02:26, 24 June 2015 (PDT)

== Sun is folded claim ==

Hi again. I went through tafsirs for "The Sun is folded up/it is flat disk" claim which was challenged by somebody on the scientific errors page some time ago. The tafsirs make even more errors on this topic [http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=109&tSoraNo=81&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2] [http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1387&Itemid=137]. So this can go into the QHS article? and link the relevant section of Scientific Errors in Quran to it? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 01:45, 26 July 2015 (PDT)
:You can add it to the Tasks page or a Sandbox page. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 06:47, 26 July 2015 (PDT)

== Spanish translations ==

Hi! I asked this to Sahab before but since he has been inactive, I ask you to check these two articles already finished: [[WikiIslam:Sandbox:Versos coránicos malinterpretados|Misinterpreted Qur'anic Verses]] and [[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Pedofilia en el Corán|Pedophilia in the Qur'an]]. Thanks! [[User:Aelu|Aelu]] ([[User talk:Aelu|talk]]) 09:03, 28 August 2015 (PDT)
:I probably didnt do as good as a job that Sahab does but I think I got it right: [[Pedofilia en el Corán]] and [[Versos coránicos malinterpretados]]. Thank you!
:I noticed these two words spelled differently. I assume thats how its supposed to be: Coránicas [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Art%C3%ADculos_en_espa%C3%B1ol_-_Articles_in_Spanish] 2nd bullet / coránicos [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Versos_cor%C3%A1nicos_malinterpretados] (also note, small capitals is used for the 2nd word). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 17:41, 28 August 2015 (PDT)
::Yeah, they're spelled correctly, and thank you heheh :) -[[User:Aelu|Aelu]] ([[User talk:Aelu|talk]]) 16:24, 29 August 2015 (PDT)

== Italian==

Hi Axius, I've translated a new article, it's the "fastest growing religion".
:Ok. thanks. I think it needs this section [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Le_72_vergini#Vedi_anche Vedi anche] to be updated like other articles. Also it needs the Italian category.

:Also I think this section is not complete [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/La_religione_che_cresce_di_pi%C3%B9#Analisi]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 10:40, 19 September 2015 (PDT)

Hi Axius, I just amended the two articles, but I don't know how to translate the short phrase near the hub content in these articles, in the section "Vedi anche"...
Thank you very much for underlining my errors and oversights.
:Ok. I made a few other [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=La_religione_che_cresce_di_pi%C3%B9&type=revision&diff=112971&oldid=112966 fixes]. I will add these steps to the Check-list. I was able to see the fixes after looking at another previously translated [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Le_72_vergini article] and comparing the main elements (headings, formatting etc).
:I have linked the article in the various places now (main page, Italian articles and added a link from the English article).
:For References, is it "Riferimenti" or "Referenze"? The first term is used here [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Le_72_vergini]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:29, 20 September 2015 (PDT)

Hi, both of the terms could be used, but in this case it's better to use "Riferimenti". I'll use it in future articles.
I've also translated the article of "Taqiyya". but I can't translate the "Lying (Primary Sources)" of that page.
But.. it seems that I've accidentaly deleted (?) the original in english...
:The Italian version is saved and it can be moved into a new title called [[Taqiyya-it]] (following the example of [[Sunnah-fr]]). I have created the new page now.
:For 'Lying (Primary Sources)' we can make a new heading called 'Inglese' and list the EN link there. I did that too. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 16:19, 21 September 2015 (PDT)

== Translation of Pagan origins of Islam ==

Hi, I translate the article "Pagan Origins of Islam" here in my sandbox : http://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Maxime/Sandbox_1, if you can tell me if the article is good or to correct, thanks. --[[User:Maxime|Maxime]] ([[User talk:Maxime|talk]]) 13:22, 19 September 2015 (PDT)
:Looks good, I made a few fixes [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=User%3AMaxime%2FSandbox_1&type=revision&diff=112978&oldid=112956 diff]. I added the translation links and category. I also changed the 'Références' heading after seeing thats the word used in a previous translation. Is that correct, or should it be 'References'?
: Let me know the final Page title and I will move it to the new title and make the various links. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:55, 20 September 2015 (PDT)
::Hi, yes you were right to correct "Reference" to "Références", I made the last corrections to franchify the whole article. It is now ready and the title of translation will be simply "Les origines païennes de l'Islam", thanks. --[[User:Maxime|Maxime]] ([[User talk:Maxime|talk]]) 05:20, 21 September 2015 (PDT)
:::Ok. I created the page and linked it now. Thank you! --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 16:34, 21 September 2015 (PDT)
==Authorise==
Please authorise my edit here: http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Rape_in_Islam&action=history

I added a ref and archived it. |You will find it useful--[[Special:Contributions/92.12.197.254|92.12.197.254]] 11:26, 27 September 2015 (PDT)
:Does that hadith add something new to that page? I see there are other hadiths that mention the same kind of thing (an explanation about 4:24). So could you go over the page and look at the existing sources and compare it to the hadith (Sunan Abu Dawud - Book 12, Hadith 110) you're linking? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:40, 27 September 2015 (PDT)
:::That hadith was missing the source and translation. I gave a reference. Thats all--[[Special:Contributions/92.12.197.254|92.12.197.254]] 10:58, 3 October 2015 (PDT)
::::I've talked [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/User_talk:Sahab#Sunnah.com] to Sahab about sunnah.com and he said we can use it if no other source is available. So I would rather use that instead of quranx.com. We have to use websites that Muslims would be less likely to reject (and those with more authority) so for that reason we should use sunnah.com. I think this is the link for that hadith [http://sunnah.com/abudawud/12/110].
::::I agree it would be nice to add the reference (because USC.edu now is missing some of the hadith pages). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 16:57, 3 October 2015 (PDT)

== Earth shape ==

Muslims have cited the following Qur'anic verse as miraculous, "After that (Allah) spread the Earth out (dahaha: from the verb 'daha')" [Quran 79:30]. This verse has been interpreted by many Muslims as foreshadowing the concept that the figure of the Earth has an oblate ellipsoid shape. Kamel Ben Salem's explanation for this is that "the ancient exegetes had earlier explained the Arabic verb (dahaha) by (has flattened it)" but that "the origin of this verb is found in the word (Ud-hiya)", which means "egg of ostrich", thus "the Earth would look like an ostrich’s egg" which is accurate with scientific data that confirms that the Earth is slightly flat at the poles very similarly to the shape of the egg of an ostrich. Rashad Khalifa alternatively translated the verse as: "he made the earth egg-shaped." However, this Muslim argument for scientific foreknowledge in the Qur'an is built on a popular misconception known as the "Myth of the Flat Earth". Knowledge of a spherical Earth has existed since the ancient Greeks. Hence the argument's attempt to present this piece of information as foreknowledge is inaccurate. Also the Earth is an oblate spheroid whereas an ostrich egg is a '''prolate''' spheroid.

The claim that the term "daha" refers to an "ostrich egg" is also disputed. The premise that the term "ud-hiya" is the root of the word "daha" is inconsistent with the fact that most Arabic words have a triconsonantal root. This premise is also not supported by the classical lexicons of the Arabic language. Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon, for example, reports that the term "daha" is rooted in the triconsonantal root, dal-ha-waw. The term "ud-hiya", on the other hand, is only a cognate of the word "daha". It is also noted in the entry for the term "daha" in Lane's lexicon that the word is used to signify any surface that has been spread out or flattened. Lane's lexicon also provides an example of the usage of the word with the following statement, "also, said of an ostrich, he expanded, and made wide, with his foot, or leg, the place where he was about to deposit his eggs". In a consistent manner, "udhiya" is defined as "The place of the laying of eggs, and of the hatching thereof, of the ostrich in the sand". It is not known whether this example, involving an ostrich and its egg, is the cause of the mistranslation of "daha" as an "ostrich egg".--[[User:AAA|AAA]] ([[User talk:AAA|talk]]) 12:34, 31 October 2015 (PDT)
:Ok, you can put this on a temporary user sandbox page for later use. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:09, 1 November 2015 (PST)

::Here's a source for it: http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/earth_egg.html --[[User:AAA|AAA]] ([[User talk:AAA|talk]]) 08:55, 1 November 2015 (PST)

== Joining the team translator (Indonesia) ==

Hi Axius,

Thank you. Yes, I think that's the approach I need. I apologize for the editing and re-editing unconvinience, I'm trying to improve my lack of vocabularies but the meaning is alike over time. I just want to make the message got better, comprehensively understandable for readers. Next time I'll make sure the edit is fix and final for review.
Anyway, this far I can see a translation into Bahasa Indonesia here but the task is not completed yet for public view. While actually in my priority ofcourse, regarding the number of Indonesian muslims majority don't speak English, please, would you consider opening sub domain for it? I will learn to contribute the translation into Bahasa; Please kindly advice.
Also thanks for all the good works you and the team have done, Wikiislam has been my prime preference all these time.

Sincerely,
Gon
:Ok, no problem. Yea sure, you can edit the page I linked for your testimony. You could edit that page in English where you could write a short account and then you could create another page in Indonesian (bahasa) e.g. [[User:Goncandu/Mengapa saya meninggalkan Islam]] (I used Google translate for 'Why I left Islam') and write your story in much more detail in Bahasa.
:We only have one page in Indonesian ([http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Sanggahan_Terhadap_Apologis_Muslim_Mengenai_Usia_Aisha]) which is sad considering its a big Muslim country, one of the most populous in fact. It is critical to reach people there.
:A sub-domain can opened after 25 translated articles and someone who can take care of the site (more information here [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Frequently_Asked_Questions#I_want_to_become_an_admin_and_open_up_my_own_language.27s_sub-domain._Can_I_start_one.3F]).
:For now just focus on completing the article you're working on, and the testimonies of leaving Islam (if you dont want to write them thats fine too; whatever you want to do) and next choose an article you'd like to translate ([[WikiIslam:Translations#Articles_to_Translate]]) and let me know its title and I can guide you from there. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 09:05, 14 November 2015 (PST)

Hi

I find this labyrinth depressing. It is difficult to navigate. I can't save as I go along translating unlike all common word editors. If this feature is available I sure don't see it. It would be good if translators like me can focus on the translation works only and not spending so much time trying to understand rules and regulations (which is not that clear), functions and searching and clicking everywhere to find things. Maybe it is just me but ... Sorry. I was trying to be honest.
:I'll help you with any questions you have. You can save as you go. I had a question, what article do you want to translate? I will then give you further directions.
:I want to stress that the translation must be accurate and match the english version. This is very important. I'll quote it:
::''One of the key rules to follow when translating these pre-sub-domain articles is that they should always remain absolutely faithful to the original English work, retaining their scholarly tone and information. The reason for accurate translations to begin with is that it allows new editors in that particular language to understand the style, tone, and quality that is expected in all languages.''
: --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:17, 18 November 2015 (PST)

==i don't know how to execute the points 6 and 7 of the translation help guide==

salute axius, sorry to bother you but i only know you and two other members here because you've participated into my page.
anyway i have translated the article "invitation to islam prior to violence" in italian. i have tried to make a page out of it but i am uncertain about the result.
the page is here: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Invito_a_convertirsi_all%27islam_prima_dell%27attacco

but as you can see it still appears that " wikiislam: " in front of the title plus i don't know how to link it to the other versions nor how to insert it into the italian net of articles. [[User:Neceseco|Neceseco]] ([[User talk:Neceseco|talk]]) 06:16, 24 November 2015 (PST)
:Thanks for the translation. I've added the links etc. I havent added the links yet for these two pages in the 'translations' section: [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Pozvani_k_Islamu_pred_pouzitim_nasili], [http://bg.wikiislam.net/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8_%D0%B7%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%BC%D0%B0,_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%82_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE?rdfrom=http%3A%2F%2Fwikiislam.net%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3D%25D0%259F%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B8_%25D0%25B7%25D0%25B0_%25D0%25BF%25D1%2580%25D0%25B8%25D0%25B5%25D0%25BC%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B5_%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0_%25D0%25B8%25D1%2581%25D0%25BB%25D1%258F%25D0%25BC%25D0%25B0%2C_%25D0%25BA%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B8%25D1%2582%25D0%25BE_%25D0%25BF%25D1%2580%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B4%25D1%2585%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B6%25D0%25B4%25D0%25B0%25D1%2582_%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0%25D1%2581%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BB%25D0%25B8%25D0%25B5%25D1%2582%25D0%25BE%26redirect%3Dno]. For adding those links we need to find out what they call 'Italian' in their language and to find that we could see another article in their language.

:The link to the page is:
::<nowiki>* [[Invito_a_convertirsi_all_islam_prima_dell_attacco|Target language]]</nowiki>.

:thank you. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:12, 25 November 2015 (PST)

thank you axius. can you tell me how you fixed the "wikiislam" problem? so that maybe next time i will not bother you? [[User:Neceseco|Neceseco]] ([[User talk:Neceseco|talk]]) 01:06, 26 November 2015 (PST)
:The article just needs to be moved to the main space when its complete. There's a 'move' dropdown near the top right. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 01:36, 26 November 2015 (PST)

==i get blocked every other day?==

sorry to bother you once again, unfortunately i still don't get how to use this site. couldn't there be a chat or a page for problems like this? i don't know how to contact other participants to ask for help nor where to display some proposal. when you answer i don't get any notification and have to go around and search for your response.

anyway: lately i've been blocked frequently, it says to me that some bot users have used my IP address to damage the site. how does it work? is it a dangerous thing for me? how can i avoid it? i want to continue to translate the site.
:We'll look into it. The site's setup has to be fixed. The new owners are working on it. I think I know what the problem is. So I'll let you know once this has been fixed. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 06:56, 11 December 2015 (EST)

== New translation ==

Hi!
I have comleted translation of article Health Effects of Islamic Dress to Polish. I think I have done everything as in instruction. It should be ready to be viewed. Waiting for your feedback
Greetings
Mystery lady
:Ok, I added it. Looks good on first glance. Thanks. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 19:12, 15 February 2016 (EST)

== Timeline - Muhammad - Polish translation ==

Hi,

Some time ago I translated the timeline of Muhammad (https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Sandbox/%C5%BBycie_mahometa_-_chronologia). It was marked as incomplete because of the "Translations" links so I changed them. Now the article is still marked as incomplete. Could you tell me what else I need to do so that it is visible to everybody?
:I think the title needs to be capitalized when you move it to the main space and then link it on a new Polish translations page that follows the format of other language pages [https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Clanky_v_ceskem_jazyce_-_Articles_in_Czech]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 21:28, 31 March 2016 (EDT)

== Remove me from your page, please. ==

Hello.

Could you please remove my nickname from this page : https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User_talk:Axius

Webcitation just failed caching my link. My other links'cache are ok.

Oh. Yea it failed mine too for that same link. --Axius (talk | contribs) 05:23, 14 March 2015 (PDT)

Heitri2. It does that on pages because they respect the "norobot" txt or something. On the other hand, Archive.is archives the page regardless, so that site can be used instead. We mention both services here. And really, this information should be known to editors before they start editing links in pages. --Sahab (talk) 15:44, 14 March 2015 (PDT)

Could you also erase this message once it is done?

Thanks in advance.

User talk:Axius

2016-06-24T17:08:42Z

Heitri2: /* Remove me from your page, please. */ new section

[[Image:Crystal Clear action edit add.png|15px]] {{plainlink|url={{SERVER}}/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Axius&action=edit&section=new '''Leave a message'''}}

[[User talk:Axius/Archive]]

== Testimonies and private emails ==

Hi AX. When someone submits a new testimony, could you check to see if they have left an email at the bottom? It is to do with [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Special:Form/newapostate#Notes Notes #1] on the submission form that says:

:''"Consider providing a contact email address at the bottom of your testimony. If an email address is not submitted, then there may be difficulty in getting information altered/removed later on if such a request is made. Your email address will be wiped from the page history before being added to the wiki mainspace, meaning only administrators will be able to view it."''

The best thing to do is delete the email address and then wipe it from the history with an explanation (e.g. "Email (as per Notes #1 on the form)") so we know where to look if they ever contact us. These emails could be very private and I don't think they should be left out in the public for too long. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 01:51, 6 December 2014 (PST)
:Yea you're right they should not be left there for long. I'll try to keep an eye on it. We do database compaction sometimes so that removes the deleted page so maybe an option is to keep the emails locally on the computer or saved in an email account in a draft email, or we just remove the requirement of adding the email, or we ask them to send us an email when they submit their testimony so we have it privately on record. That will be the easiest for us. On another note could you check your email? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 04:42, 6 December 2014 (PST)
::Thanks Ax, I'm reading it now. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 07:13, 6 December 2014 (PST)

== Dsarkosky ==

Hi Ax. That thing about "Porkistani/P*ki Muslims" was a mistake but not about 911. It's a racial slur (akin to the "N" word for blacks) against South Asians. This guy is clearly not an Arab, because an Arab would know the difference between my race and his. Mixing up Arabs with South Asians does happen, but it's usually troglodytes of European ancestry that do it. And it is mostly them who equate "p*ki" with "Muslim". I just thought I'd make you aware because I think America is the exception, and that word is not considered an insult over there. So obviously anything submitted to the site (even comments on talk pages) that contains that word would be going against the policies. Actually, any insults at all against race/ethnicity/nationality (e.g. "Porkistani") is against the policies.

Anyways, that "testimony" as a whole is crazy. Wow. So many calls for genocide in such a few amount of words. And lol at the "You need to eat bacon... to prove that you are no longer a Muslim" line. I'm a vegan, so with that line of thinking, it would mean that I must still be an under-cover Muslim. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 19:42, 3 January 2015 (PST)
:LOL. I just did an IP search and I was right. Whoever submitted that testimony did it from Western Europe. That's a long way from Oman (where he claims to originate) and Hong Kong (where he claims to now live). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 19:49, 3 January 2015 (PST)
::Yea he mixed them up (said it was Pakistanis who did 9/11 when it was mostly people from Saudi arabia). Yea the bacon/pork requirement was strange. Oh I see so the IP did not match the locations. Good catch. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 12:37, 4 January 2015 (PST)

==Mia Khalifa==
Hi Axius, can we have an article on Mia Khalifa? She is in the news.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 10:53, 10 January 2015 (PST)
:If it was appropriate for the site sure, but we would need someone to do it. According to Wikipedia she is/was not a Muslim ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia_Khalifa] unverified) so if its thats true we would probably not have the article. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 18:52, 10 January 2015 (PST)
::Yeah. Apparently, she was born into a Muslim family but is a Christian now. So a page about a porn star who was simply born to Muslims wouldn't be appropriate. There are a lot of Middle-Eastern pornstars, and it's a fair bet that the majority of them are from a Muslim background. This is nothing extraordinary. At best, the Freedom of Speech (links) page should have a link added under the US section. But nothing more. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 01:57, 11 January 2015 (PST)

== Muhammad and Aisha Task ==

Hi Ax. I don't understand why you added [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=WikiIslam:Tasks&curid=7002&diff=111648&oldid=111431 this] task. I think it is a pretty terrible idea. Those two pages have two distinct purposes, so merging them makes no sense. It would in fact make it harder for readers to use to counter Muslim arguments, make the page ridiculously long, AND make our other pedophilia pages redundant (if you want to merge the "Refutation of Modern Apologetics Against Aisha's Age" with the "Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha" page, then why not also merge the [[Aisha_Age_of_Consummation|Aisha's Age of Consummation]]" page with the "Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha" page? It's the exact same situation).

The [[Refutation_of_Modern_Apologetics_Against_Aishas_Age|Refutation of Modern Apologetics Against Aisha's Age]] page refutes only a single, stand-alone apologetic argument. This argument is basically, '''"Some Islamic sources say Aisha was aged 12, 14, 15, 17, 18 and 21 when Muhammad had sex with her"'''. If you look at the [[Responses_to_Apologetics_-_Muhammad_and_Aisha|Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha]] page, this is [[Responses_to_Apologetics_-_Muhammad_and_Aisha#Some_Islamic_sources_say_Aisha_was_aged_12.2C_14.2C_15.2C_17.2C_18_and_21_when_Muhammad_had_sex_with_her|argument number six]]. So basically what your new task is saying is to copy/paste that detailed, long and well-crafted stand-alone article under argument number six. I don't understand why you would even consider that a viable option. That one argument (that the hadith say Aisha was older) is practically as long as the page you want to merge it with, and that page contains 20+ different arguments.

Think about it from a reader's view: that's like a science teacher (WikiIslam) having a creationist student (Muslim) question one single aspect of evolutionary theory (Muhammad's pedophilia), but rather than give a detailed rebuttal to that single objection (Aisha's age according to hadith), the teacher slaps a 1000 page encyclopedia about the evolutionary theory in front of him and tells him to find the answer in there somewhere.

And like I mentioned earlier, merging this article also begs the question; why not merge every page concerning Mo and Aisha into that one page? [[Responses_to_Apologetics_-_Muhammad_and_Aisha#The_hadiths_do_not_say_Muhammad_had_sex_with_Aisha_when_she_was_9._They_have_been_poorly_translated|Argument number 4]] is '''"The hadiths do not say Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was 9. They have been poorly translated"''', so why not delete the "[[The Meaning of Consummate]]" page and copy/paste that into "Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha" too? [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 21:29, 1 March 2015 (PST)
:The only reason I can think of is that both titles have similar words in them ("Refutation/Response" and "Apologetics"). If that's the case, then only a name change is needed to more accurately reflect the topics of the pages. TBH not only does "Refutation of Modern Apologetics Against Aisha's Age" need its name changed, but so does the "Aisha's Age of Consummation" page. I remember you previously said you preferred to keep the title as it is simply because that's an early article. However, the "Aisha's Age of Consummation" page has a misleading title as its content is not really about Aisha's age of consummation. It's about whether or not Mo can be classed as a pedophile. "Refutation of Modern Apologetics Against Aisha's Age" should be renamed "Aisha's Age of Consummation" because that IS the actual topic of the page. And "Aisha's Age of Consummation" should be renamed "Muhammad and Pedophilia" or something like that. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 21:42, 1 March 2015 (PST)
::"Muhammad and the Clinical Definition of Pedophilia" is a good name. I'll rename these pages when I can. There is a fair bit of redirecting that I will also have to do. Also wanted to add that if I am correct about the reason, then as administrators we must base our decisions off more than a cursory glance at the title of a page. A merge of those two pages would have big repercussions, not least to the logical structure and quality of the site. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 21:49, 1 March 2015 (PST)
:::Oh. Yea I totally missed that the title was "Responses to ... ''Aisha's Age''". So it was only the issue of her age for that title. I think whoever was doing the task would have noticed this before they started the task. Thanks for noticing that. I'll look into this again later.
:::Thanks for fixing those redirects. I wish there was a bot that could fix it. I'll make that a task in a new section for things that could be done by bots. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 02:19, 2 March 2015 (PST)
::::Cool. Yeah, sometimes finding where exactly the inline links are within a page can be hard. You have to go over the page text a couple of times before noticing it. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 02:36, 2 March 2015 (PST)
:::::I do a CTRL-F for the link's partial/full name or the page's name. Google chrome has good search highlighting features. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 03:10, 2 March 2015 (PST)
::::::Thanks Ax. I just tried that and it works great. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 16:12, 2 March 2015 (PST)

== About my modifications ==

Webcitation just failed caching my link. My other links'cache are ok.
:Oh. Yea it failed mine too for that same link. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:23, 14 March 2015 (PDT)

::Heitri2. It does that on pages because they respect the "norobot" txt or something. On the other hand, Archive.is archives the page regardless, so that site can be used instead. We mention both services [[WikiIslam:Citing_Sources#Archived_Links|here]]. And really, this information should be known to editors before they start editing links in pages. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 15:44, 14 March 2015 (PDT)

==Finished Translating Health effects Dress==

Hi! I think I've finished translating the article [[Health Effects of Islamic Dress]] into Spanish as [[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Efectos sobre la Salud de la Vestimenta Islámica]]. Any suggestions will be welcomed for next tasks. Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Charles69|Charles69]] ([[User talk:Charles69|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Charles69|contribs]]) {{#if:| |}} ([[WikiIslam:Signatures#Signing_Posts|Remember to sign your comments]]) 
:Excellent. Thanks! I will wait for Sahab for finalizing this. [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/72_Virgins 72 virgins] is a great choice and any others from the [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Translations#Articles_to_Translate list]
:Sahab, help! I would try to do it but I'll miss some [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/User_talk:Sahab#Translation_steps steps.] --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:34, 18 March 2015 (PDT)
:I'll go for those chicks ;).--[[User:Charles69|Charles69]] ([[User talk:Charles69|talk]]) 05:57, 18 March 2015 (PDT)

== QURAN ERRORS ==

Quran verse describes the sun and the moon in parallel orbits, as Quran verse 36:40 says, "It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming."
'''Quran never ever said that, the earth moves or travels.'''

See Also: http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/Erroneous-Science-and-Contradictions-in-Quran.htm AND http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Qur%27anic_scientific_foreknowledge (THIS SITE EXPLAINS THE CLAIMED FOREKNOWLEDE IS FALSE AND ALSO GIVES REFERENCES TO OTHER SITES)--[[User:AAA|AAA]] ([[User talk:AAA|talk]]) 15:27, 1 June 2015 (PDT)
:We have this article on the topic. Check it out: [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Geocentrism_and_the_Quran].
:Thanks for the links. I did not know about the "heavy clouds" errors in the Quran. I'll add it to our tasks page to review and add if suitable. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 19:34, 1 June 2015 (PDT)

::Islam says that even the almighty Allah can change his mind. It's contradictory because Islam claims Allah knows and creates everything.--[[User:AAA|AAA]] ([[User talk:AAA|talk]]) 10:27, 5 July 2015 (PDT)

== Vacuum ==

*Dr. Keith Moore and the Islamic additions (in Uzbek)

:Hi! How are you doing? Excuse my ignorance, I'm having trouble with the placement of this quote. Please, help[http://s17.postimg.org/5je8jiv7j/quote_move.jpg] Source: [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Doktor_Keyt_Mur_va_Islomiy_embriologiya] --[[User:Vacuum|Vacuum]] ([[User talk:Vacuum|talk]]) 20:18, 13 June 2015 :(PDT)
::Sorry I've been more busy than usual. Give me a few days and I'll look into it. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:09, 14 June 2015 (PDT)
:::I got it. Thank you. --[[User:Vacuum|Vacuum]] ([[User talk:Vacuum|talk]]) 05:53, 15 June 2015 (PDT)

* Ideas

:I think we should create a (hub) page on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia/ Pareidolia] and attach references to Islamic "sign miracles", such as [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Praying_Tree]; [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Trees_Tomatoes_and_Bronchi_Saying_Shahadah]; [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Allah_Written_In_or_On_Various_Things]; --[[User:Vacuum|Vacuum]] ([[User talk:Vacuum|talk]]) 09:45, 16 June 2015 (PDT)
::We have it: [[Pareidolia]]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 02:26, 24 June 2015 (PDT)

== Sun is folded claim ==

Hi again. I went through tafsirs for "The Sun is folded up/it is flat disk" claim which was challenged by somebody on the scientific errors page some time ago. The tafsirs make even more errors on this topic [http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=109&tSoraNo=81&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2] [http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1387&Itemid=137]. So this can go into the QHS article? and link the relevant section of Scientific Errors in Quran to it? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 01:45, 26 July 2015 (PDT)
:You can add it to the Tasks page or a Sandbox page. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 06:47, 26 July 2015 (PDT)

== Spanish translations ==

Hi! I asked this to Sahab before but since he has been inactive, I ask you to check these two articles already finished: [[WikiIslam:Sandbox:Versos coránicos malinterpretados|Misinterpreted Qur'anic Verses]] and [[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Pedofilia en el Corán|Pedophilia in the Qur'an]]. Thanks! [[User:Aelu|Aelu]] ([[User talk:Aelu|talk]]) 09:03, 28 August 2015 (PDT)
:I probably didnt do as good as a job that Sahab does but I think I got it right: [[Pedofilia en el Corán]] and [[Versos coránicos malinterpretados]]. Thank you!
:I noticed these two words spelled differently. I assume thats how its supposed to be: Coránicas [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Art%C3%ADculos_en_espa%C3%B1ol_-_Articles_in_Spanish] 2nd bullet / coránicos [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Versos_cor%C3%A1nicos_malinterpretados] (also note, small capitals is used for the 2nd word). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 17:41, 28 August 2015 (PDT)
::Yeah, they're spelled correctly, and thank you heheh :) -[[User:Aelu|Aelu]] ([[User talk:Aelu|talk]]) 16:24, 29 August 2015 (PDT)

== Italian==

Hi Axius, I've translated a new article, it's the "fastest growing religion".
:Ok. thanks. I think it needs this section [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Le_72_vergini#Vedi_anche Vedi anche] to be updated like other articles. Also it needs the Italian category.

:Also I think this section is not complete [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/La_religione_che_cresce_di_pi%C3%B9#Analisi]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 10:40, 19 September 2015 (PDT)

Hi Axius, I just amended the two articles, but I don't know how to translate the short phrase near the hub content in these articles, in the section "Vedi anche"...
Thank you very much for underlining my errors and oversights.
:Ok. I made a few other [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=La_religione_che_cresce_di_pi%C3%B9&type=revision&diff=112971&oldid=112966 fixes]. I will add these steps to the Check-list. I was able to see the fixes after looking at another previously translated [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Le_72_vergini article] and comparing the main elements (headings, formatting etc).
:I have linked the article in the various places now (main page, Italian articles and added a link from the English article).
:For References, is it "Riferimenti" or "Referenze"? The first term is used here [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Le_72_vergini]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:29, 20 September 2015 (PDT)

Hi, both of the terms could be used, but in this case it's better to use "Riferimenti". I'll use it in future articles.
I've also translated the article of "Taqiyya". but I can't translate the "Lying (Primary Sources)" of that page.
But.. it seems that I've accidentaly deleted (?) the original in english...
:The Italian version is saved and it can be moved into a new title called [[Taqiyya-it]] (following the example of [[Sunnah-fr]]). I have created the new page now.
:For 'Lying (Primary Sources)' we can make a new heading called 'Inglese' and list the EN link there. I did that too. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 16:19, 21 September 2015 (PDT)

== Translation of Pagan origins of Islam ==

Hi, I translate the article "Pagan Origins of Islam" here in my sandbox : http://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Maxime/Sandbox_1, if you can tell me if the article is good or to correct, thanks. --[[User:Maxime|Maxime]] ([[User talk:Maxime|talk]]) 13:22, 19 September 2015 (PDT)
:Looks good, I made a few fixes [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=User%3AMaxime%2FSandbox_1&type=revision&diff=112978&oldid=112956 diff]. I added the translation links and category. I also changed the 'Références' heading after seeing thats the word used in a previous translation. Is that correct, or should it be 'References'?
: Let me know the final Page title and I will move it to the new title and make the various links. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:55, 20 September 2015 (PDT)
::Hi, yes you were right to correct "Reference" to "Références", I made the last corrections to franchify the whole article. It is now ready and the title of translation will be simply "Les origines païennes de l'Islam", thanks. --[[User:Maxime|Maxime]] ([[User talk:Maxime|talk]]) 05:20, 21 September 2015 (PDT)
:::Ok. I created the page and linked it now. Thank you! --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 16:34, 21 September 2015 (PDT)
==Authorise==
Please authorise my edit here: http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Rape_in_Islam&action=history

I added a ref and archived it. |You will find it useful--[[Special:Contributions/92.12.197.254|92.12.197.254]] 11:26, 27 September 2015 (PDT)
:Does that hadith add something new to that page? I see there are other hadiths that mention the same kind of thing (an explanation about 4:24). So could you go over the page and look at the existing sources and compare it to the hadith (Sunan Abu Dawud - Book 12, Hadith 110) you're linking? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:40, 27 September 2015 (PDT)
:::That hadith was missing the source and translation. I gave a reference. Thats all--[[Special:Contributions/92.12.197.254|92.12.197.254]] 10:58, 3 October 2015 (PDT)
::::I've talked [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/User_talk:Sahab#Sunnah.com] to Sahab about sunnah.com and he said we can use it if no other source is available. So I would rather use that instead of quranx.com. We have to use websites that Muslims would be less likely to reject (and those with more authority) so for that reason we should use sunnah.com. I think this is the link for that hadith [http://sunnah.com/abudawud/12/110].
::::I agree it would be nice to add the reference (because USC.edu now is missing some of the hadith pages). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 16:57, 3 October 2015 (PDT)

== Earth shape ==

Muslims have cited the following Qur'anic verse as miraculous, "After that (Allah) spread the Earth out (dahaha: from the verb 'daha')" [Quran 79:30]. This verse has been interpreted by many Muslims as foreshadowing the concept that the figure of the Earth has an oblate ellipsoid shape. Kamel Ben Salem's explanation for this is that "the ancient exegetes had earlier explained the Arabic verb (dahaha) by (has flattened it)" but that "the origin of this verb is found in the word (Ud-hiya)", which means "egg of ostrich", thus "the Earth would look like an ostrich’s egg" which is accurate with scientific data that confirms that the Earth is slightly flat at the poles very similarly to the shape of the egg of an ostrich. Rashad Khalifa alternatively translated the verse as: "he made the earth egg-shaped." However, this Muslim argument for scientific foreknowledge in the Qur'an is built on a popular misconception known as the "Myth of the Flat Earth". Knowledge of a spherical Earth has existed since the ancient Greeks. Hence the argument's attempt to present this piece of information as foreknowledge is inaccurate. Also the Earth is an oblate spheroid whereas an ostrich egg is a '''prolate''' spheroid.

The claim that the term "daha" refers to an "ostrich egg" is also disputed. The premise that the term "ud-hiya" is the root of the word "daha" is inconsistent with the fact that most Arabic words have a triconsonantal root. This premise is also not supported by the classical lexicons of the Arabic language. Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon, for example, reports that the term "daha" is rooted in the triconsonantal root, dal-ha-waw. The term "ud-hiya", on the other hand, is only a cognate of the word "daha". It is also noted in the entry for the term "daha" in Lane's lexicon that the word is used to signify any surface that has been spread out or flattened. Lane's lexicon also provides an example of the usage of the word with the following statement, "also, said of an ostrich, he expanded, and made wide, with his foot, or leg, the place where he was about to deposit his eggs". In a consistent manner, "udhiya" is defined as "The place of the laying of eggs, and of the hatching thereof, of the ostrich in the sand". It is not known whether this example, involving an ostrich and its egg, is the cause of the mistranslation of "daha" as an "ostrich egg".--[[User:AAA|AAA]] ([[User talk:AAA|talk]]) 12:34, 31 October 2015 (PDT)
:Ok, you can put this on a temporary user sandbox page for later use. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:09, 1 November 2015 (PST)

::Here's a source for it: http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/earth_egg.html --[[User:AAA|AAA]] ([[User talk:AAA|talk]]) 08:55, 1 November 2015 (PST)

== Joining the team translator (Indonesia) ==

Hi Axius,

Thank you. Yes, I think that's the approach I need. I apologize for the editing and re-editing unconvinience, I'm trying to improve my lack of vocabularies but the meaning is alike over time. I just want to make the message got better, comprehensively understandable for readers. Next time I'll make sure the edit is fix and final for review.
Anyway, this far I can see a translation into Bahasa Indonesia here but the task is not completed yet for public view. While actually in my priority ofcourse, regarding the number of Indonesian muslims majority don't speak English, please, would you consider opening sub domain for it? I will learn to contribute the translation into Bahasa; Please kindly advice.
Also thanks for all the good works you and the team have done, Wikiislam has been my prime preference all these time.

Sincerely,
Gon
:Ok, no problem. Yea sure, you can edit the page I linked for your testimony. You could edit that page in English where you could write a short account and then you could create another page in Indonesian (bahasa) e.g. [[User:Goncandu/Mengapa saya meninggalkan Islam]] (I used Google translate for 'Why I left Islam') and write your story in much more detail in Bahasa.
:We only have one page in Indonesian ([http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Sanggahan_Terhadap_Apologis_Muslim_Mengenai_Usia_Aisha]) which is sad considering its a big Muslim country, one of the most populous in fact. It is critical to reach people there.
:A sub-domain can opened after 25 translated articles and someone who can take care of the site (more information here [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Frequently_Asked_Questions#I_want_to_become_an_admin_and_open_up_my_own_language.27s_sub-domain._Can_I_start_one.3F]).
:For now just focus on completing the article you're working on, and the testimonies of leaving Islam (if you dont want to write them thats fine too; whatever you want to do) and next choose an article you'd like to translate ([[WikiIslam:Translations#Articles_to_Translate]]) and let me know its title and I can guide you from there. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 09:05, 14 November 2015 (PST)

Hi

I find this labyrinth depressing. It is difficult to navigate. I can't save as I go along translating unlike all common word editors. If this feature is available I sure don't see it. It would be good if translators like me can focus on the translation works only and not spending so much time trying to understand rules and regulations (which is not that clear), functions and searching and clicking everywhere to find things. Maybe it is just me but ... Sorry. I was trying to be honest.
:I'll help you with any questions you have. You can save as you go. I had a question, what article do you want to translate? I will then give you further directions.
:I want to stress that the translation must be accurate and match the english version. This is very important. I'll quote it:
::''One of the key rules to follow when translating these pre-sub-domain articles is that they should always remain absolutely faithful to the original English work, retaining their scholarly tone and information. The reason for accurate translations to begin with is that it allows new editors in that particular language to understand the style, tone, and quality that is expected in all languages.''
: --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:17, 18 November 2015 (PST)

==i don't know how to execute the points 6 and 7 of the translation help guide==

salute axius, sorry to bother you but i only know you and two other members here because you've participated into my page.
anyway i have translated the article "invitation to islam prior to violence" in italian. i have tried to make a page out of it but i am uncertain about the result.
the page is here: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Invito_a_convertirsi_all%27islam_prima_dell%27attacco

but as you can see it still appears that " wikiislam: " in front of the title plus i don't know how to link it to the other versions nor how to insert it into the italian net of articles. [[User:Neceseco|Neceseco]] ([[User talk:Neceseco|talk]]) 06:16, 24 November 2015 (PST)
:Thanks for the translation. I've added the links etc. I havent added the links yet for these two pages in the 'translations' section: [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Pozvani_k_Islamu_pred_pouzitim_nasili], [http://bg.wikiislam.net/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8_%D0%B7%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%BC%D0%B0,_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%82_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE?rdfrom=http%3A%2F%2Fwikiislam.net%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3D%25D0%259F%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B8_%25D0%25B7%25D0%25B0_%25D0%25BF%25D1%2580%25D0%25B8%25D0%25B5%25D0%25BC%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B5_%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0_%25D0%25B8%25D1%2581%25D0%25BB%25D1%258F%25D0%25BC%25D0%25B0%2C_%25D0%25BA%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B8%25D1%2582%25D0%25BE_%25D0%25BF%25D1%2580%25D0%25B5%25D0%25B4%25D1%2585%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B6%25D0%25B4%25D0%25B0%25D1%2582_%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B0%25D1%2581%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BB%25D0%25B8%25D0%25B5%25D1%2582%25D0%25BE%26redirect%3Dno]. For adding those links we need to find out what they call 'Italian' in their language and to find that we could see another article in their language.

:The link to the page is:
::<nowiki>* [[Invito_a_convertirsi_all_islam_prima_dell_attacco|Target language]]</nowiki>.

:thank you. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:12, 25 November 2015 (PST)

thank you axius. can you tell me how you fixed the "wikiislam" problem? so that maybe next time i will not bother you? [[User:Neceseco|Neceseco]] ([[User talk:Neceseco|talk]]) 01:06, 26 November 2015 (PST)
:The article just needs to be moved to the main space when its complete. There's a 'move' dropdown near the top right. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 01:36, 26 November 2015 (PST)

==i get blocked every other day?==

sorry to bother you once again, unfortunately i still don't get how to use this site. couldn't there be a chat or a page for problems like this? i don't know how to contact other participants to ask for help nor where to display some proposal. when you answer i don't get any notification and have to go around and search for your response.

anyway: lately i've been blocked frequently, it says to me that some bot users have used my IP address to damage the site. how does it work? is it a dangerous thing for me? how can i avoid it? i want to continue to translate the site.
:We'll look into it. The site's setup has to be fixed. The new owners are working on it. I think I know what the problem is. So I'll let you know once this has been fixed. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 06:56, 11 December 2015 (EST)

== New translation ==

Hi!
I have comleted translation of article Health Effects of Islamic Dress to Polish. I think I have done everything as in instruction. It should be ready to be viewed. Waiting for your feedback
Greetings
Mystery lady
:Ok, I added it. Looks good on first glance. Thanks. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 19:12, 15 February 2016 (EST)

== Timeline - Muhammad - Polish translation ==

Hi,

Some time ago I translated the timeline of Muhammad (https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Sandbox/%C5%BBycie_mahometa_-_chronologia). It was marked as incomplete because of the "Translations" links so I changed them. Now the article is still marked as incomplete. Could you tell me what else I need to do so that it is visible to everybody?
:I think the title needs to be capitalized when you move it to the main space and then link it on a new Polish translations page that follows the format of other language pages [https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Clanky_v_ceskem_jazyce_-_Articles_in_Czech]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 21:28, 31 March 2016 (EDT)

== Remove me from your page, please. ==

Hello.

Could you please remove my nickname from this page : https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User_talk:Axius

Webcitation just failed caching my link. My other links'cache are ok.

Oh. Yea it failed mine too for that same link. --Axius (talk | contribs) 05:23, 14 March 2015 (PDT)

Heitri2. It does that on pages because they respect the "norobot" txt or something. On the other hand, Archive.is archives the page regardless, so that site can be used instead. We mention both services here. And really, this information should be known to editors before they start editing links in pages. --Sahab (talk) 15:44, 14 March 2015 (PDT)

Could you also erase this message once it is done?

Thanks in advance.

User talk:Heitri2

2016-06-24T17:05:17Z

Heitri2: Blanked the page

User talk:Heitri2

2016-06-24T17:05:07Z

Heitri2: /* Link fixed */

== Edits ==

I can tell you that this [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Taurat&curid=4415&diff=111836&oldid=111832] wouldnt be right because the word corruption is in brackets by only one translator. The Arabic supposedly only says 'guard it/guardian' as you can see from the translation link, which could mean things other than corruption. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 10:07, 14 March 2015 (PDT)

:Ok. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Heitri2|Heitri2]] ([[User talk:Heitri2|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Heitri2|contribs]]) {{#if:10:20, 14 March 2015‎| 10:20, 14 March 2015‎|}} ([[WikiIslam:Signatures#Signing_Posts|Remember to sign your comments]]) 
::Currently there is no one available to check your edits. Could you please postpone main space editing for now until your previous edits have been checked and approved? thanks. You can keep a list of edits on a user sandbox page. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:10, 14 March 2015 (PDT)

:::Ok. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Heitri2‎|Heitri2‎]] ([[User talk:Heitri2‎|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Heitri2‎|contribs]]) {{#if:14:11, 14 March 2015‎ | 14:11, 14 March 2015‎ |}} ([[WikiIslam:Signatures#Signing_Posts|Remember to sign your comments]]) 

::::Hi Heitri2. When each of your edits require another editor to follow you around and correct them, then that's a fair indication that you're doing it wrong. [[WikiIslam:Policies_and_Guidelines#Contributions|WikiIslam:Policies and Guidelines]] states:

::::{{Quote||It is the responsibility of each individual editor to make sure that their own edits are of a high standard. Edits should not be made with the expectation that someone else will fix the problems those edits may have caused (e.g. spelling, punctuation, formatting, broken links/redirects etc.).}}

::::I will go through each of you edits when I have the time, but so far I'm not pleased. When archiving links, you do not just exchange one link for the other. The fact that links are dead in those pages suggests they're older articles that were completed before our newer templates were created. If you are going to update pages, you should be updating them with those newer templates. You should also check additions once you've made them, to ensure that you did not cause bigger problems as a result of your edit (for example, what seems to have happened with your edits on [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Misinterpreted_Qur%27anic_Verses&diff=prev&oldid=111835 Misinterpreted Qur'anic Verses]). You would know all this if you had read the relevant help/policies pages. In this case: [[Template:External link]] and [[WikiIslam:Citing Sources]].

::::Then you should already know that using something like the ''DailyCaller'' as a reference is strongly against the site's policies (see [[WikiIslam:Reliable Sources]]), or that your comments should be properly indented and signed (see [[WikiIslam:Indentation]] and [[WikiIslam:Signatures]]).

::::Please read and follow the directions on [[WikiIslam:Message to New Users]] before making any further contributions. If this was read to begin with, there probably wouldn't be so many issues with your edits. Thanks. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 16:40, 14 March 2015 (PDT)

:::::A perfect example of what happens when editors rush to add things without even reading the page properly [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Misinterpreted_Qur%27anic_Verses&diff=prev&oldid=111835#Let_there_be_no_compulsion_in_religion_.282:256.29]. The "No Compulsion" section clearly says, '''''"Ibn Kathir in the version of his tafsir abridged by Sheikh Muhammad Nasib Ar-Rafa‘i, has this to say (note that this portion has not been translated by Safiur Rahman Mubarakpuri who is responsible for the abridged version of Tafsir Ibn Kathir widely available on the internet):"''''' before going on to quote what was left out of the '''abridged version of Tafsir Ibn Kathir widely available on the internet'''. So why on earth did you decide to copy/paste a massive block of text from '''the abridged version of Tafsir Ibn Kathir widely available on the internet''' (that is essentially Muslim apologetics) directly beneath the quote that proves the very same thing you quoted is disingenuous in the way it presents its information?

:::::Okay, I will be reverting your edits to our French articles because I don't understand French and I'm not comfortable at all with leaving unchecked edits made by you on this site. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 17:15, 14 March 2015 (PDT)

Ok. Also, I found the uncensored version in a muslim website but in French : http://ddata.over-blog.com/4/22/62/75/Tafsir/2.-La-Vache.pdf ; from http://bibliotheque-islamique-coran-sunna.over-blog.com/article-le-commentaire-tafsir-complet-du-coran-d-ibn-kathir-sourate-1-a-30-121170381.html (p. 344 of the PDF ; 373 of the book, here http://i.imgur.com/GarjI5v.png ). It probably won't be useful but... maybe, who knows ?

User talk:Heitri2

2015-03-15T12:44:02Z

Heitri2:

==Link fixed==
hi Heitri2. Note that in this edit [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Taurat&diff=111824&oldid=95301] of yours the link change you made was not working and it was working before [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Taurat&diff=prev&oldid=95301]. If you make a link change, could you please click on it to verify that its working? Thanks.

I have'nt checked your other edits yet but I checked another and that link was working, but I need to tell you about some templates we have for these links like, cite web, cite web quotebox and external link. Our templates for references are not in perfect shape so I need to tell you about that. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 04:58, 14 March 2015 (PDT)

== Edits ==

I can tell you that this [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Taurat&curid=4415&diff=111836&oldid=111832] wouldnt be right because the word corruption is in brackets by only one translator. The Arabic supposedly only says 'guard it/guardian' as you can see from the translation link, which could mean things other than corruption. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 10:07, 14 March 2015 (PDT)

:Ok. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Heitri2|Heitri2]] ([[User talk:Heitri2|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Heitri2|contribs]]) {{#if:10:20, 14 March 2015‎| 10:20, 14 March 2015‎|}} ([[WikiIslam:Signatures#Signing_Posts|Remember to sign your comments]]) 
::Currently there is no one available to check your edits. Could you please postpone main space editing for now until your previous edits have been checked and approved? thanks. You can keep a list of edits on a user sandbox page. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:10, 14 March 2015 (PDT)

:::Ok. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Heitri2‎|Heitri2‎]] ([[User talk:Heitri2‎|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Heitri2‎|contribs]]) {{#if:14:11, 14 March 2015‎ | 14:11, 14 March 2015‎ |}} ([[WikiIslam:Signatures#Signing_Posts|Remember to sign your comments]]) 

::::Hi Heitri2. When each of your edits require another editor to follow you around and correct them, then that's a fair indication that you're doing it wrong. [[WikiIslam:Policies_and_Guidelines#Contributions|WikiIslam:Policies and Guidelines]] states:

::::{{Quote||It is the responsibility of each individual editor to make sure that their own edits are of a high standard. Edits should not be made with the expectation that someone else will fix the problems those edits may have caused (e.g. spelling, punctuation, formatting, broken links/redirects etc.).}}

::::I will go through each of you edits when I have the time, but so far I'm not pleased. When archiving links, you do not just exchange one link for the other. The fact that links are dead in those pages suggests they're older articles that were completed before our newer templates were created. If you are going to update pages, you should be updating them with those newer templates. You should also check additions once you've made them, to ensure that you did not cause bigger problems as a result of your edit (for example, what seems to have happened with your edits on [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Misinterpreted_Qur%27anic_Verses&diff=prev&oldid=111835 Misinterpreted Qur'anic Verses]). You would know all this if you had read the relevant help/policies pages. In this case: [[Template:External link]] and [[WikiIslam:Citing Sources]].

::::Then you should already know that using something like the ''DailyCaller'' as a reference is strongly against the site's policies (see [[WikiIslam:Reliable Sources]]), or that your comments should be properly indented and signed (see [[WikiIslam:Indentation]] and [[WikiIslam:Signatures]]).

::::Please read and follow the directions on [[WikiIslam:Message to New Users]] before making any further contributions. If this was read to begin with, there probably wouldn't be so many issues with your edits. Thanks. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 16:40, 14 March 2015 (PDT)

:::::A perfect example of what happens when editors rush to add things without even reading the page properly [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Misinterpreted_Qur%27anic_Verses&diff=prev&oldid=111835#Let_there_be_no_compulsion_in_religion_.282:256.29]. The "No Compulsion" section clearly says, '''''"Ibn Kathir in the version of his tafsir abridged by Sheikh Muhammad Nasib Ar-Rafa‘i, has this to say (note that this portion has not been translated by Safiur Rahman Mubarakpuri who is responsible for the abridged version of Tafsir Ibn Kathir widely available on the internet):"''''' before going on to quote what was left out of the '''abridged version of Tafsir Ibn Kathir widely available on the internet'''. So why on earth did you decide to copy/paste a massive block of text from '''the abridged version of Tafsir Ibn Kathir widely available on the internet''' (that is essentially Muslim apologetics) directly beneath the quote that proves the very same thing you quoted is disingenuous in the way it presents its information?

:::::Okay, I will be reverting your edits to our French articles because I don't understand French and I'm not comfortable at all with leaving unchecked edits made by you on this site. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 17:15, 14 March 2015 (PDT)

Ok. Also, I found the uncensored version in a muslim website but in French : http://ddata.over-blog.com/4/22/62/75/Tafsir/2.-La-Vache.pdf ; from http://bibliotheque-islamique-coran-sunna.over-blog.com/article-le-commentaire-tafsir-complet-du-coran-d-ibn-kathir-sourate-1-a-30-121170381.html (p. 344 of the PDF ; 373 of the book, here http://i.imgur.com/GarjI5v.png ). It probably won't be useful but... maybe, who knows ?

User talk:Heitri2

2015-03-14T21:11:10Z

Heitri2: /* Edits */

Allah le meilleur trompeur

2015-03-14T21:04:09Z

Heitri2:

[[File:Quran 3-54.png|290px|right|thumb]]
Le Coran déclare souvent ouvertement que [[Allah]] est le meilleur trompeur, la racine du mot présent dans les versets que nous allons analyser est "Makr" qui signifie en clair "tromperie".

==Introduction==
Récapitulons, le Coran décrit très franchement Allah comme le "meilleur dupeur", la racine de mot "Makr" utilisé dans ces versets est bien "tromperie/duperie". Les traductions littérales présentes ici proviennent d'un [[websites|site web musulman]]. Il en conviendra de noter que la majorité du Coran a d'ailleurs très faussement traduit ce terme comme nous allons le voir dans les versets suivants.

Même si il y a beaucoup de versets utilisant le même mot (Makir) en référence à Allah<ref>[http://www.irreduciblefifth.force9.co.uk/burhan/b.x.311.htm Quran root browser - م ك ر - m-k-r]</ref>, cette article se concentrera exclusivement sur les versets où c'est Allah lui-même qui se décrit comme le meilleur dupeur.

==Définitions==

{{Quote|[http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/tromper/79915 Définitions : tromper] Dictionnaire de français Larousse|'''<big>tromper</big>'''

'''''verbe transitif''

(ancien français ''se tromper de'', se moquer de, de trompe)

*Abuser de la confiance de quelqu'un, se jouer de lui en usant de mensonges, de dissimulation
*Être infidèle à quelqu'un, avoir une aventure amoureuse, sexuelle avec un(e) autre
*Induire quelqu'un en erreur, lui faire prendre quelque chose, quelqu'un pour ce qu'ils ne sont pas
*Faire faire à quelqu'un une erreur de jugement, d'appréciation
*Échapper à quelqu'un, à sa vigilance, son attention, les déjouer par ruse, feinte
*Décevoir, ne pas répondre à un sentiment, un espoir
*Détourner, par une diversion, l'attention d'un désir, un état pénible}}

== Coran ==

Dans les versets du Coran qui vont suivre, c'est Allah lui-même qui se révèle être le meilleur trompeur.

=== Coran 3:54 ===

{{quote |{{Qtt|3|54}}|
'''Arabe:''' ومكروا ومكر الله والله خير الماكرين

'''Translittération:''' Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena

'''Littéral:''' Ils ont voulu tromper/tricher contre Dieu, alors que Dieu préparait aussi sa tromperie/tricherie contre eux et assurément Dieu est le meilleur des trompeurs/tricheurs.<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://iknowledge.islamicnature.com/quran/surah/3/lang/englishliteral/|2=2011-08-25}} 3. Ali-Imran - The Family Of 'Imran (سورة آل عمران) - Revealed in Madinah (English: Literal)] - IslamicNature, accessed August 25, 2011</ref>}}

=== Coran 7:99 ===

{{quote |{{Qtt|7|99}}|
'''Arabe:''' افامنوا مكر الله فلايامن مكر الله الا القوم الخاسرون

'''Translittération:''' Afaaminoo makra Allahi fala ya/manu makra Allahi illa alqawmu alkhasiroona

'''Littéral:''' Sont-ils à l'abri du complot/(de la) tromperie de Dieu ? Alors que personne ne devrait se sentir à l'abri du complot/(de la) tromperie de Dieu excepté les malheureux.<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://iknowledge.islamicnature.com/quran/surah/7/lang/englishliteral/|2=2011-08-25}} 7. Al-A'raf - The Heights (سورة الأعراف) - Revealed in Makkah (English: Literal)] - IslamicNature, accessed August 25, 2011</ref>}}

=== Coran 8:30 ===

{{quote |{{Qtt|8|30}}|
'''Arabe:''' واذ يمكر بك الذين كفروا ليثبتوك او يقتلوك او يخرجوك ويمكرون ويمكر الله والله خير الماكرين

'''Translittération:''' Wa-ith yamkuru bika allatheena kafaroo liyuthbitooka aw yaqtulooka aw yukhrijooka wayamkuroona wayamkuru Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena

'''Littéral:''' Et rappelle-toi le moment où les mécréants complotaient/rusaient contre toi/ essayer de te duper pour t'emprisonner, ou te tuer, ou t'expulser de leur terre, certes ils ont comploté/rusé/essayer de te tromper, mais Dieu est le meilleur des comploteurs/ruseurs/dupeurs.<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://iknowledge.islamicnature.com/quran/surah/8/lang/englishliteral/|2=2011-08-25}} 8. Al-Anfal - Spoils Of War (سورة الأنفال) - Revealed in Madinah (English: Literal)] - IslamicNature, accessed August 25, 2011</ref>}}

=== Coran 10:21 ===

{{quote |{{Qtt|10|21}}|
'''Arabe:''' واذا اذقنا الناس رحمة من بعد ضراء مستهم اذا لهم مكر في اياتنا قل الله اسرع مكرا ان رسلنا يكتبون ماتمكرون

'''Translittération:''' Wa-itha athaqna alnnasa rahmatan min baAAdi darraa massat-hum itha lahum makrun fee ayatina quli Allahu asraAAu makran inna rusulana yaktuboona ma tamkuroona

'''Littéral:''' Et si Nous faisons goûter aux gens/éprouvons les gens de Notre miséricorde après qu'une calamité/un malheur les ait touché, voila qu'ils manigancent/rusent/complotent contre nos versets. Dis : "Dieu est plus habile dans la ruse/l'intrigue, et Nos messagers écrivent ce que vous avez accompli comme tricherie/tromperie/intrigue."<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://iknowledge.islamicnature.com/quran/surah/10/lang/englishliteral/|2=2011-08-25}} 10. Yunus - Jonah (سورة يونس) - Revealed in Makkah (English: Literal)] - IslamicNature, accessed August 25, 2011</ref>}}

=== Coran 13:42 ===

{{quote |{{Qtt|13|42}}|
'''Arabe:''' وقد مكر الذين من قبلهم فلله المكر جميعا يعلم ماتكسب كل نفس وسيعلم الكفار لمن عقبى الدار

'''Translittération:''' Waqad makara allatheena min qablihim falillahi almakru jameeAAan yaAAlamu ma taksibu kullu nafsin wasayaAAlamu alkuffaru liman AAuqba alddari

'''Littéral (traductions française):''' Rappelle-toi les anciens peuples qui avaient triché/essayaient de tromper/conspiré (contre Nos messagers), alors que c'est à Allah qu'appartient toute la tricherie/la tromperie/le complot. Il sait que ce chaque âme gagne/acquiert, et les mécréants sauront à qui est réservé la demeure finale/la bonne fin.<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://iknowledge.islamicnature.com/quran/surah/13/lang/englishliteral/|2=2011-08-25}} 13. Ar-Ra'd - The Thunder (سورة الرعد) - Revealed in Makkah (English: Literal)] - IslamicNature, accessed August 25, 2011</ref>}}

Le mot makir est toujours utilisé péjorativement mais jamais cadré dans un contexte positif. En effet il est souvent utilisé pour décrire quelqu'un de sournois et de malhonnête. C'est à cause de la façon dont un "makir" vous dupe - il planifie un dessein pour vous égarer grâce à la fourberie - qu'il est totalement inapproprié pour Allah de se décrire tel quel, spécialement lorsque l'on sait que les deux des 99 attributs divins qu'on lui donne sont الحق : Al-Haqq (La Vérité) et الوكيل : Al-Wakīl (Le Tuteur : Celui qui garantit, administre, se charge et résolut toute chose et toute affaire, à qui on peut se confier, qui offre un soutien inébranlable).

==Définition littérale de Makr==
Cette section cite de nombreuses sources académiques anglaises pour étudier en profondeur le mot ''Makr''

===Lane's Lexicon===

Le Edward William Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon est le dictionnaire anglais le plus révéré et le plus fiable de la langue arabe. Du "Lane's Lexicon" (la version originale complète peut être lue [[:File:Makr Lane-Lexicon-page Vol 7-pg. 256.jpg|ici]]):

{{Quote|1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.studyquran.co.uk/14_MIIM.htm|2=2013-07-21}} Lane's Lexicon (anglais): "Miim"]|2='''Miim-Kaf-Ra''' Traduction = le fait de pratiquer la tromperie, la fraude ou le contournement, commettre une évasion ou une fuite, de comploter, de conspirer, d'exercer dans le domaine de l'art ou dans l'artisanat ou dans la ruse, être dans la politique, savoir planifier un stratagème (original : to practice deceit or guile or circumvention, practice evasion or elusion, to plot, to excercise art or craft or cunning, act with policy, practice strategem).

''makara'' vb. (1){{br}}
perf. act. 3:54, 3:54, 7:123, 13:42, 14:46, 16:26, 16:45, 27:50, 40:45, 71:22{{br}}
impf. act. 6:123, 6:123, 6:124, 8:30, 8:30, 8:30, 10:21, 12:102, 16:127, 27:70, 35:10{{br}}
n.vb. 7:99, 7:99, 7:123, 10:21, 10:21, 12:31, 13:33, 13:42, 14:46, 14:46, 14:46, 27:50, 27:50, 27:51, 34:33, 35:10, 35:43, 35:43, 71:22{{br}}
pcple. act. 3:54, 8:30

[[:File:Makr Lane-Lexicon-page Vol 7-pg. 256.jpg|LL, V7, p: 256]]}}

===Hans Wehr===

Le dictionnaire Hans Wehr est considéré comme le dictionnaire académique de norme de la langue arabe pour les chercheurs et étudiants anglophones, il confirme aussi ces définitions du mot :

{{Quote|[[:File:Hans Wehr dictionary - page 917.jpg|Hans Wehr dictionary (anglais), page 917]]|'''1ère forme makara u (Makr)''' le fait de tromper, illusionner, tricher, duper, faire tromper, trahir. III : essayer de tromper

'''2ème forme makr''' rouerie, finesse, sournoiserie, ruse, double jeu, tromperie, astuce

'''3ème forme makra''' ruse, artifice, stratagème, escroquer, astuce, esquive

'''4ème forme makkār et 5ème forme makǔr''' ruse, sournois, astucieux, rusé, habile, malin, sournois; fourbe, personne rusé, imposteur, escroc

'''6ème forme mākir pluriel et 7ème forme makara''' sournois, ruse, rusé}}

===Arabic Lexicon===

{{Quote|1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://lexicons.sakhr.com/openme.aspx?fileurl=/html/1088382.html|2=2013-07-21}} Arabic Lexicon on ''Al-Makr'']|2=[[File:Arabic-lexicon for Al-Makr.gif]]}}

{{Quote|1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://lexicons.sakhr.com/openme.aspx?fileurl=/html/3076064.html|2=2013-07-21}} Arabic Lexicon on ''Makir'']|2=[[File:Arabic-lexicon for Makir.gif]]}}

===Divers autres dictionnaires===

Les significations du terme arabe d'autres dictionnaires et sources anglaises ont été compilé ci-dessous avec leurs traductions françaises :
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Dictionary
! width = 100px | Word
! Meaning
|-
| [http://translate.google.com/ Google Translate]
| ماكر (Makir)
| ''sly, cunning, deceitful [http://translate.google.com/ en voir plus ici]
(t : sournois, ruseur, trompeur)''
|-
| [http://translation.babylon.com/Arabic Babylon.com]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''n. calculating, cunning, astuteness, craftiness, foxiness, craft, slyness, archness, deceit, double-dealing, artifice, deception, wiliness, artfulness, furtiveness, ploy, trick, guile, ruse, roguery
(t : le calcul, la ruse, l'astuce, l'ingéniosité, la finesse, l'artisanat, le fait d'être rusé, le malice, la tromperie, le double-jeu, l'artifice, la duperie, le fait d'être astucieux, l'adresse, le fait d'être furtif, un stratagème, le passe-passe; un tour (=jouer un tour de magie, un tour à quelqu'un), la fourberie, le subterfuge, la friponnerie) ''
|-
| [http://www.Stars21.com TranStar]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''wiliness'' (means: "Full of wiles") [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wiliness Merriam-Webster]
(t : signification: = "rempli de ruses")
|-
| [http://qamoose.arabeyes.org/dict_main.cgi ArabEyes.com]
| المكر (Al-Makr)
| ''deception
(t : tromperie)''
|-
| [http://www.ebnmasr.net/wtranslate/ Ibn Masr]
| المكر (Al-Makr)
| ''deception
(t = tromperie)''
|-
| [http://www.systranet.com/?text=%D9%85%D9%83%D8%B1&lp=ar_en SYSTRAnet.com]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''deception
(t : tromperie)''
|-
| [http://free.translated.net/ Translated.net]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''deception
(t : tromperie)''
|-
| [http://freetranslation.paralink.com/ ImTranslator.com]
| المكر (Al-Makr)
| ''deviousness
(t : tortuosité)''
|-
| [http://freetranslation.paralink.com/ ImTranslator.com]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''wiliness
(t = astucieux)''
|-
| [http://online.ectaco.co.uk/main.jsp?do=e-services-dictionaries-word_translate1&direction=1&status=translate&lang1=23&lang2=ar&refid=-1&source=deception Ectaco]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''deception
(t = tromperie)''
|}

== Traductions erronées ==

Ce qui va suivre sont les traductions anglaises (retranscrites en français) des versets sélectionnés. Comme mentionné au-dessus, makir n'est jamais utilisé dans un sens positif - il désigne une personne rusée, sournoise qui utilise la tromperie pour parvenir à ses fins.

On peut voir que la plupart des traducteurs ont donné au mot "makir" (dont l'une de ces significations est complot) le sens de "plan infaillible, stratagème sûr". Alors que cela crée une abstraction avec le contexte et la connotation du mot présent dans les versets que nous allons vérifier. Makir ne veut tout simplement pas dire "planificateur". Le seul et unique fait que makir peut être traduit par complot/intrigue/programme sournois (scheme en anglais) et que cela peut renvoyer (scheme) au sens de plan/complot ne peut pas permettre le fait de traduire "makir" en tant que planificateur/comploteur. C'est de la malhonnêteté de la part des traducteurs.

Il faut se rendre compte que ce mot est utilisé en même temps pour décrire Allah et les mécréants. Dans la plupart des cas les traducteurs rendent le mot accordé à Allah plus bénigne pour éviter de révéler, conformément au Coran, ce que Allah dit vraiment sur lui même.

=== Coran 3:54 ===

{{quote ||
'''Yusuf Ali:''' Et les mécréants ont comploté et planifié, mais Allah a planifié aussi, et le meilleur des planificateurs est assurément Allah.<ref name="iw3-54">{{quran-ia|3|54}} (anglais)</ref>}}

{{quote ||
'''Pickthal:''' Et ils (les mécréants) ont comploté, et Allah a aussi comploté (contre eux) : et Allah est le meilleur des comploteurs.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Arberry:''' Et ils ont manigancé, et Dieu aussi a manigancé, et Dieu est le meilleur d'entre ceux qui manigancent. <ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Shakir:''' Et ils ont planifié et Allah aussi a planifié et Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Sarwar:''' Les mécréants ont comploté et Dieu a planifié, mais Dieu est un bien meilleur planificateur.<ref name="iw3-54"/> }}

{{quote ||
'''Khalifa:''' Ils complotèrent et intriguèrent, mais DIEU fit de même, et DIEU est le meilleur Stratège.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Hilali/Khan:''' Et ils (les mécréants) ont comploté (pour tuer 'Īsā (Jésus)), mais Allah a planifié aussi. Et Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''H/K/Saheeh:''' Et les mécréants ont planifié, mais Allah a planifié. Assurément Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Malik:''' Les mécréants parmi les enfants d’Israël ont mené un complot contre Jésus alors qu'Allah avait établit un plan pour l'élever vers Lui, vraiment Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''QXP:''' Les opposants ont construit quelques plans, mais Allah en fit autant. Et Allah est le Vertueux des planificateurs. (Ils ont comploté pour arrêter et crucifier Jésus mais Allah l'a protégé).<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Maulana Ali:''' Et (les Juifs) ont planifié et Allah aussi a planifié. Certainement Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Free Minds:''' Ils ont mis au point certaines machinations et Dieu en fit de même, mais Dieu est le meilleur comploteur.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Qaribullah:''' Ils ont manigancé, et Allah a manigancé. Et Allah est le Meilleur des Comploteurs.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''George Sale:''' Et les Juifs ont manigancé un stratagème contre lui; mais Dieu de son côté a aussi manigancé un stratagème contre eux; et Dieu est le meilleur stratège.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''JM Rodwell:''' Et les juifs ont comploté, et Dieu a comploté: Mais de ces deux-là c'est bien sûr Dieu le meilleur comploteur.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Asad:''' Et les mécréants ont conspirer [contre jésus]; mais Dieu a anéanti complètement leur intrigue; Dieu est vraiment transcendant sur les intrigues.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Palmer:''' Et ils (les Juifs) étaient rusés, mais Dieu aussi était rusé, et Dieu est le meilleur de ces ruseurs.<ref>[http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated&layout=auto&searchstring=003:054 Quran Browser - Quran 3:54 (anglais)]</ref>}}

=== Coran 7:99 ===

{{quote ||
'''Yusuf Ali:''' Est-ce qu'ils se sentent à l'abri contre le plan d'Allah ? -Alors que personne ne devrait se sentir à l'abri du Plan d'Allah excpeté ceux damnés à péri. <ref name="iw7-99"> {{quran-ia|7|99}} (anglais)</ref>}}

{{quote ||
'''Pickthal:''' Est-ce qu'ils se sentent en sécurité contre l'intrigue d'Allah ? Personne ne devrait se sentir protégé contre le plan d'Allah, périront ceux qui le seront.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Arberry:''' Est-ce qu'ils se sentent en tranquillité contre le stratagème de Dieu ? Personne ne se sent serein contre le stratagème de Dieu mise à part les gens perdus.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Shakir:''' Quoi ! Est-ce qu'ils se sentent en sécurité contre le plan d'Allah ? Personne ne devrait se sentir en sécurité contre le plan d'Allah excepté les gens destinés à périr.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Sarwar:''' Est-ce qu'ils croient qu'ils se suffisent à eux-même contre la rétribution de Dieu ? Alors qu'aucun homme ne devrait avoir une telle attitude excepté ceux qui sont perdus.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Khalifa:''' Ont-ils pris les plans de Dieu pour acquis ? Personne ne peut prendre les plans de Dieu pour acquis excepté les perdants.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Hilali/Khan:''' Se sentent-ils en sûreté contre le Plan d'Allah. Personne ne devrait se sentir en sûreté contre le Plan d'Allah excepté les gens qui sont perdus.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''H/K/Saheeh:''' Sont-ils dans l'assurance contre le plan d'Allah ? Mais personne ne devrait sous-estimer le plan d'Allah excepté les gens perdus.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Malik:''' Est-ce que ces gens sont calmes à la vue du plan d'Allah ? En vérité, seuls ceux qui sont condamnés à la destruction se sentent calmes face au plan d'Allah.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''QXP:''' Est-ce qu'ils ne ressentent aucune peur de l'avenue de la Loi Divine ? Est-ce qu'ils pensent que la Loi Divine leur garantit une sécurité inconditionnelle? Seuls les perdants n'ont pas peur de l'avenue de la Loi de la Rétribution d'Allah.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Maulana Ali:''' Sont-ils protégés du plan d'Allah? Mais personne ne devrait se sentir protégé du plan d'Allah excepté les gens qui périssent.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Free Minds:''' Est-ce qu'ils sont rassurés de l'intrigue de Dieu? Personne ne devrait être rassuré du complot de Dieu excepté les personnes qui sont perdus.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Qaribullah:''' (en réponse à votre manigance) est-ce qu'ils se sentent à l'abri de la manigance de Dieu? Personne ne devrait se sentir à l'abri de la manigance de Dieu excepté les nations perdues.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''George Sale:''' Se sont-ils sentis intouchables face au stratagème de Dieu? Mais personne ne devrait se sentir intouchable au stratagème de Dieu excepté les qui gens qui périssent.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''JM Rodwell:''' Est-ce qu'ils se sont sentis en sécurité contre le tribunal rigoureux de Dieu? Mais personne ne devrait se sentir en sécurité contre le tribunal rigoureux de Dieu, sauvez ceux qui périssent.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Asad:''' Peuvent-ils se sentir calme face à la grande manigance de Dieu? Alors que personne ne devrait se sentir calme face à la grand manigance de Dieu, sauvez les personnes qui sont déjà perdus.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Palmer:''' Se sentent-ils à l'abri de la ruse de Dieu? Personne ne devrait se sentir à l'abri contre la ruse de Dieu excepté les gens qui vont perdre.<ref>[http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated&layout=auto&searchstring=007:099 Quran Browser - Quran 7:99 (anglais)]</ref>}}

=== Coran 8:30 ===

{{quote ||
'''Yusuf Ali:''' Rappelle-toi comment les Non-croyants ont comploté contre toi, pour te mettre sous caution, ou de te tuer, ou de t'expulser (de chez toi). Ils ont comploté et planifié, et Allah a planifié aussi; mais le meilleur des planificateurs est Allah<ref name="iw8-30">{{quran-ia|8|33}} (anglais)</ref>}}

{{quote ||
'''Pickthal:''' Et quand ceux qui ont mécru ont comploté contre toi (Ô Mohammed) pour te blesser mortellement, ou te tuer ou t'expulser; ils ont comploté, mais Allah (aussi) a comploté; et Allah est le meilleur des comploteurs.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Arberry:''' Et quand les non-croyants étaient en train de manigancé contre toi, pour t'emprisonner, ou t'abattre, ou t'expulser, ils étaient en train de manigancé, et Dieu était en train de manigancé; et Dieu est le meilleur de ceux qui manigancent.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Shakir:''' Et quand ceux qui ont mécru manigançaient des intrigues contre toi pour te saisir ou te tuer ou te chasser de leur terre; et ils manigançaient des plans et Allah aussi a conçu un plan; et Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Sarwar:''' Les incroyants planifièrent de t'emprisonner, te tuer ou de t'expulser (Mohammed) de la ville. Ils organisèrent des plans mais Allah aussi planifia et les plans de Dieu sont les meilleurs.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Khalifa:''' Les mécréants complotent et intriguent pour te neutraliser, ou te tuer, ou te bannir. Cependant, ils complotent et intriguent, mais DIEU fait de même. DIEU est le meilleur stratège.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Hilali/Khan:''' Et (rappelle-toi) quand les incroyants complotaient contre toi (Ô Mohammed PBSL) pour t'emprisonner, ou te tuer, ou t'éjecter (de chez toi, La Mecque); ils étaient en train de comploté et Allah aussi était en train de comploté, et Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''H/K/Saheeh:''' Et [rappelle-toi, Ô Mohammed], quand ceux qui ont mécru ont comploté contre toi pour porter atteinte à ta liberté, ou te tuer ou t'expulser [de La Mecque]. Mais ils ont planifié, et Allah a planifié. Et Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Malik:''' Rappelle-toi, comment les infidèles ont comploté contre toi. Ils ont cherché à te rendre captif ou te tuer ou t'exiler. Ils ont planifié et Allah a aussi planifié - Parmi tous les planificateurs, Allah est le meilleur de tous.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''QXP:''' Rappelle-toi (Ô Mohammed), quand les dénégateurs étaient en train de comploter pour t'arrêter, ou te tuer, ou t'expulser. C'était leur plan, mais la Loi de la Justice d'Allah est indéfectible. Allah est le Meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Maulana Ali:''' Et ceux qui ont mécru ont manigancé des intrigues contre toi afin de te capturer ou de de mettre fin à ta vie ou t'expulser loin de leur terre - et ils ont manigancé et Allah aussi, a mis au point un plan; et Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Free Minds:''' Et les dénégateurs complotent contre toi pour t'arrêter, ou te tuer, ou t'expulser. Et ils complotent, et Dieu complote, et Dieu est le meilleur des comploteurs.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Qaribullah:''' Et quand les incroyants ont comploté contre toi (Prophète Mohammed). Ils ont cherché parmi leurs multiples manigances : à te capturer, te tuer, ou t'expulser. Ils ont comploté et Allah (pour leur rétribution) a aussi comploté. Allah est le meilleur dans le complot.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''George Sale:''' Et remémore-toi quand les infidèles ont comploté contre toi, pour te retenir prisonnier, ou te tuer, ou te bannir de la terre. Ils ont comploté-mais Dieu a comploté: et de tous les comploteurs Dieu en est le meilleur!<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''JM Rodwell:''' And remémore-toi quand les infidèles ont comploté contre toi, pour te retenir prisonnier, ou te tuer, ou te bannir de la terre. Ils ont comploté-mais Dieu a comploté: et de tous les comploteurs Dieu en est le meilleur!<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Asad:''' ET [rappelle-toi, Ô Prophète,] comment ceux qui étaient obstinés à renier la vérité étaient en train de conspirer contre toi, dans le but de te priver de ta liberté [pour précher], ou te tuer, ou t'expulser loin de leur terre: c'est ainsi qu'ils ont [toujours] conspirer:'° mais Dieu a complètement annihilé leur conspiration- Dieu est au dessus de toutes les conspirations.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Palmer:''' Et quand ceux qui doutaient préparaient leurs ruses afin de t'emprisonner, ou de t'assassiner, ou de te renvoyer de leur terre; ils étaient rusés, mais Dieu est encore plus rusé, Dieu est au-dessus de tous ces ruseurs.<ref>[http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated&layout=auto&searchstring=008:030 Quran Browser - Quran 8:30 (anglais)]</ref> }}

=== Coran 10:21 ===

{{quote ||
'''Yusuf Ali:''' Et quand Nous faisons goûter aux gens une partie de notre Miséricorde après que l'adversité les ait touchés, et voici ! Ils s'adonnent à comploter contre Nos Signes! Dis: "Le plan d'Allah vous viendra soudainement" En vérité, Nos messagers enregistrent tous vos complots auxquels vous vous adonnés.<ref name="iw10-21">{{quran-ia|10|21}} (anglais)</ref>}}

{{quote ||
'''Pickthal:''' Et quand Nous faisons goûter aux hommes de notre miséricorde après que l'adversité les ait affligés, voici qu'ils organisent quelques complots contre Nos révélations. Dis : Allah est plus rapide dans sa planification. Prenez garde! Nos messagers mettent par écrit ce qu'ils complotent.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Arberry:''' Quand Nous laissons les gens goûter de nos miséricordes après qu'un temps dur les ait visités, et voila qu'ils ont fait une manigance contre nos signes. Dis : 'Dieu est plus rapide dans son dispositif; sûrement Nos messagers mettent par écrit ce que vous avez préparé comme dispositif.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Shakir:''' Et quand Nous faisons goûter aux gens la miséricorde après qu'une affliction les ait touchés, et voila qu'ils manigancent des plans contre Notre message. Dis: Allah est plus habile à faire des plans; certainement Nos messagers inscrivent ce que vous planifiez.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Sarwar:''' Quand les gens se voient octroyés de miséricorde après avoir souffert d'épreuve, ils commencent à comploter contre Nos révélations. Dis, "Dieu est plus rapide dans Ses plans." Nos messagers angéliques enregistrent tout ce que vous complotez.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Khalifa:''' Quand nous comblons les gens de miséricorde, après que de l’adversité les ait affligés, ils intriguent immédiatement contre nos révélations ! Dis : « Les intrigues de DIEU sont de loin plus efficaces. Car nos messagers enregistrent tout ce que vous intriguez. »<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Hilali/Khan:''' Et quand Nous accordons aux hommes de goûter de notre miséricorde après que certaines tribulations les ait affligés, par la suite! Ils s'engagent à comploter contre Nos Ayat (preuves, évidences, versets, leçons, signes, révélations, etc.)! Dis : "Allah est plus rapide en planification!" Sûrement, Nos Messagers (anges) enregistrent tout ce que vous complotez.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''H/K/Saheeh:''' Et quand nous offrons aux gens un don de notre miséricorde après que la difficulté les ait touchés, ainsi subséquemment,ils conspirent contre Nos versets. Dis, "Allah est prompt dans sa stratégie." Effectivement Nos messagers consignent ce que vous avez conspirer.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Malik:''' Et quand nous montrons notre miséricorde aux hommes après que certaines calamités les ait affligés, ils commencent à comploter contre Nos révélations! Informe-leur "Allah est plus agile dans la manigance que vous; en effet Nos anges enregistrent tous les complots que vous administrez.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''QXP:''' Et quand nous attribuons à un peuple notre Miséricorde après avoir endurés une dur période, ils commencent à comploter, à titre de défi, Nos Commandements. Dis, "Allah est plus prompt dans sa planification. Nos messagers mettent par écrit ce que vous complotez.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Maulana Ali:''' Et quand Nous répandons sur les gens notre miséricorde après que l'angoisse les ait touchés, regardez comment ils manigancent leurs plans contre Nos messagers. Dis: Allah est encore plus vif à planifier. En effet Nos messagers écrivent ce que dont quoi vous complotez.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Free Minds:''' Et quand nous prodiguons de notre grâce sur un peuple qui suit un préjudice les ayant atteint, ils se prennent dans la conspiration sournoise contre Nos révélations! Dis: "Dieu est plus rapide dans la conspiration;" Nos messagers consignent vos plans secrets.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Qaribullah:''' Quand nous laissons les gens goûter de (Notre) miséricorde après qu'ils ont été affligés par un moment angoissant, ils manigancent contre Nos versets. Dis: 'Allah est encore plus spontané dans sa manigance.' En effet, Nos Messagers (les anges) inscrivent tout ce que vous manigancez.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''George Sale:''' Et quand Nous procurons aux hommes de La Mecque de notre miséricorde, après qu'une affliction soit tombé sur eux, regardez-les, ils manigancent un stratagème contre nos signes. Annonce-leur, que Dieu est plus apte à exécuter son stratagème, que vous. En toute vérité nos messagers écrivent bien ce qu'ils manigancent contre leur propre gré.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''JM Rodwell:''' Et subséquemment après qu'un trouble se soit abattu sur un peuple, nous leur attribuons de notre clémence, et bien voila qu'après cela ils complotent sciemment contre nos signes pensant être caché de la vue de Dieu! DIS: Le plus impétueux des complots est bien celui d'Allah! En vérité, nos messagers notent bien ce que vous complotez.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Asad:''' Et [c'est ainsi que] quoique [de Nos] miséricordes nous laissons à [ce peuple], voici que de peu de temps après ils tournent le dos pour réfléchir sur des faux arguments allant à l'encontre de Nos messagers. "Dis "Dieu est rapide [et plus que vous] dans son imprévisible manigance!" Ne vous y détrompez-pas, nos messagers (célèstes) sont en train d'enregsitrer tout ce que pouvez manigancer.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Palmer:''' Et quand, par miséricorde, nous laissons aux gens goûter de notre clémence après que la détresse les ait envahis, il n'en faut que très peu pour qu'ils se mettent à concevoir un stratagème contre nos signes! Dis, 'Dieu est plus brute dans son stratagème.' Cela est la vérité, nos messagers prennent notes des stratagèmes que vous utilisez.<ref>[http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated&layout=auto&searchstring=010:021 Quran Browser - Quran 10:21 (anglais)]</ref> }}

=== Coran 13:42 ===

{{quote ||
'''Yusuf Ali:''' Ceux d'avant eux ont aussi manigancé des complots; mais sur toutes choses Allah est maître de planification, il sait ce que chaque âme acquiert et bientôt les incroyants sauront qui aura la bonne fin.<ref name="iw13-42">{{quran-ia|13|42}} (anglais)</ref>}}

{{quote ||
'''Pickthal:''' Ceux qui ont vécu avant eux ont comploté; mais tous les complots reviennent à Allah. Il sait ce que chaque âme gagne. Les mécréants sauront bientôt à qui est destiné le demeure des bienheureux.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Arberry:''' Les peuples antérieurs ont manigancé; mais l'organisation universelle appartient à Dieu. Il sait ce que chaque âme sème. Les non-croyants sauront sûrement à qui est réservé la Demeure Finale.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Shakir:''' Et ceux qui les ont précédé ont effectivement fait des plans, mais la planification de toute chose appartient à Allah; il sait ce que chaque a acquis pour elle-même, et les non-croyants recevront bientôt la vérité au sujet de la récompense de la meilleur demeure.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Sarwar:''' D'aucuns des gens qui vivaient avant eux ont comploté des plans sataniques mais Dieu est le Maître de tous les plans. Il sait tout ce que les âmes font. Les infidèles apprendront bientôt qui accédera à la fin heureuse.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Khalifa:''' D’autres avant eux ont intrigué, mais à DIEU appartient l’intrigue ultime. Il sait ce que chacun fait. Les mécréants sauront qui sont les ultimes gagnants.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Hilali/Khan:''' Et en toute vérité, les peuples antérieurs à eux ont manigancé des complots, mais la planification de toute chose revient à Allah. Il sait ce que chaque personne fait de bien ou de mal, et les mécréants sauront plus tard qui héritera de la bonne fin (destination finale).<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''H/K/Saheeh:''' Et ceux qui vivaient avant eux ont comploté, mais à Allah appartient le plan complet. Il sait ce que chaque âme sème, et les mécréants sauront pour qui est la demeure finale.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''QXP:''' Maintenant ceux qui vivaient avant ce peuple, ont aussi manigancé des intrigues, mais la plus Subtile manigance est celle d'Allah. Il sait ce que chaque "Individu" a acquis. Les dénégateurs sauront bientôt à qui appartient le Futur.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Maulana Ali:''' Et ceux avant eux qui avaient planifié, alors que la planification de toute chose est à Allah. Il sait ce que chaque gagne pour son propre intérêt. Et les mécréants sauront à la fin pour qui est la bonne fin, la bonne demeure.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Free Minds:''' Et les peuples antérieurs à eux ont intrigué, mais à Dieu appartient toutes les intrigues. Il sait ce que chaque âme acquiert et les dénégateurs en viendront à connaître pour qui est la meilleur demeure.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Qaribullah:''' Ceux qui ont péri avant eux ont manigancé, alors qu'Allah a l'organisation universelle sur l'ensemble. Il sait ce que chaque âme commet. Les incroyants sauront sans doute pour qui est l'ultime demeure.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''George Sale:''' Et leurs prédécesseurs jadis ont manigancé sournoisement des complots contre nos prophètes; mais Dieu est la maître de toutes manigances subtiles. Il sait ce que chaque âme a laissé derrière elle. Et les infidèles vont dans peu de temps connaître la vérité, et à qui sera réservé la récompense du paradis.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''JM Rodwell:''' Ceux qui ont vécu avant eux ont fait des complots: mais la manigance est sous la garde de Dieu: He sait le labeur de chacun, et les infidèles sauront pour qui est la récompense de la demeure finale.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Asad:''' Maintenant ceux qui ont vécu avant eux étaient pécheurs aussi, et ils manigançaient beaucoup autour du blasphème"-mais la plus subtile manigance est celle de Dieu, qui est connaisseur de tout ce que les humains méritent en fonction de leurs action: 12 et les renieurs de la vérité [quand le temps viendra] viendront à connaître pour qui est destinée l'autre vie.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Palmer:''' Et ceux des prédécesseurs avant eux étaient rusés aussi; mais Dieu est la maître même de la ruse! Il sait ce que chaque âme avance pour elle-même; et ceux qui ont une maladie au cœur sauront pour qui est la récompense de la demeure finale.<ref>[http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated&layout=auto&searchstring=013:042 Quran Browser - Quran 13:42 (anglais)]</ref> }}

==== Analyse ====

Les traductions de Yusuf Ali, Sarwar Hilali/Khan et Malik ont favorisé leur malhonnêteté dans la traduction du mot "makir" en lui donnant des significations divergentes dans deux endroits différents (du même verset). Quand le mot relate le fait des non-croyants, il est formulé de cette façon : 'comploté et planifié' mais si ce même mot est en rapport direct avec Allah, seulement une des deux déclarations reste : celle de 'planifié'. Cela implique que les intentions et les planifications d'Allah sont bénignes mais ceux des incroyants cachent toujours une connotations péjoratives. Cette traduction casse complètement les bases de la définition et du sens du mot "makir", mais si ils insistent vraiment à utiliser la "traduction" en "plan" alors dans ce cas ils devraient concorder les deux mots dans la même seule et unique connotation, ou encore utiliser les termes 'sournois/trompeur/planificateur' en place et lieu de juste 'planificateur' afin de transmettre le sens voulu.

Arberry et Qaribullah utilise le mot "manigancé", Rodwell le mot "comploté", Sale donne 'manigancé un stratagème' et Shakir, HK/Saheeh, QXP et Maulana Ali utilisent tous le mot "planifié" en référence aux non-croyants mais aussi à Allah. Comme indiqué précédemment, utiliser n'importes lesquels de ces mots (proches de planificateur) est malhonnête parce que les traducteurs ont complètement éviter le contexte et le sens propre du mot en question. Juste le fait que "makir" qui peut être traduit par stratagème peut vouloir aussi dire plan/complot/manigance, ne peut absolument pas permettre de traduire "makir" comme plan/complot/manigance. Cela se nomme de la non sequitur :

De cette manière, Pickthal, Khalifa, Free Minds et Shakir sont les meilleurs traductions, parce qu'ils ont correctement traduit makir dans la version anglaise- qui peut vouloir dire intrigue/dispositif sournois (scheme en anglais). Néanmoins ils ont laissé un espace blanc dans leur texte et on peut voir qu'ils n'ont pas retranscris le plein sens du mot. En anglais, bien que le mot 'intrigue/dispositif sournois(scheme)' a souvent une connotation négative, il est vrai que ce n'est pas toujours le cas. En revanche "makir" est conséquemment utilisé dans un contexte négatif.
Palmer quand à lui rend la définition de "rusé", peut-être précise, mais toujours le même problème.

== Apologétiques ==

===Jamal Badawi ===

Même si le docteur Badawi admet que le mot "makir" a une connotation négative, il cherche à justifier son usage dans le Coran quand il est en référence à Allah, en clamant qu'en tant qu'il a tout autre sens que quand des des mortels en désignent d'autres. L'article suivant provient du Live Q & A d'une conférence tenue le 16 Avril, 2007, sur le site readingislam.com. La question et la réponses sont les suivantes:

{{quote |1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20070624054812/http://www.readingislam.com/livedialogue/Browse.asp?hGuestID=8P66WT|2=2011-04-10}} Ask About Islam Q&A Session] Dr. Jamal Badawi, Reading Islam (anglais), April 16, 2007|2='''Question:''' Le coran fait souvent référence au MAKR d'Allah. Comment est-ce possible de désigner Dieu comme MAKIR ? Wa yamkuruna wa yamkuru Allah.

'''Réponse:''' Le terme que nous utilisons dans notre langage humaine n'a pas la même signification que celui qu'on utilise pour désigner Allah. Par exemple, des termes comme "entendre" et "voir" ont une signification totalement différentes lorsqu'on l'on parle d'Allah, comme il l'a ni yeux ni oreilles comme nous. (Coran 42/11)

Également, le terme arabe 'makr" pour les humains connote la conspiration ; pour Allah, en se réferrant à Lui cela signifie "plan".
En conclusion, cela veut dire que les hommes conspirent, mais qu'Allah a son propre plan pour contrecarrer leurs stratagèmes maléfiques.}}
Dr. Badawi s'appuie sur la sourate 42, verset 11 pour confirmer son dire :
{{Quote|{{Quran|42|11}}| Le Créateur des cieux et de la terre; ils vous a constitué des épouses issues de vous-même, et de même pour les bestiaux, pour que vous vous multipliez. Car rien ne Lui ressemble; et il est Celui qui Entend, il est le Clairvoyant. }}

Quand nous lisons ce verset, il est évident qu'il est en rapport direct avec les caractéristiques physiques; le Coran annonce que comme nous avons été crées par pairs (mâle et femelle), et qu'Allah n'a pas cette spécificité et qu'il n'a pas de partenaire alors rien ne lui ressemble. Vérifions avec une partie du tafsir d'ibn Kathir :

{{quote |1=[http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2109&Itemid=98 Allah is the Protector, Ruler and Creator (42:11)] Tafsir 'ibn Kathir (anglais)|2= [فَاطِرَ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ]

(Le Créateur des cieux et de la terre.) veut dire, le Fabricateur (littéralement : le Faiseur) des cieux et de la terre et de tout ce qu'il y a entre eux.

[جَعَلَ لَكُمْ مِّنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ أَزْوَاجًا]

(Il a fait pour vous des épouses issues de vous-mêmes) veut dire, de votre propre espèce/genre. Comme une bénédiction et une faveur venant de Lui, Il vous a partagé entre hommes et femmes.

[وَمِنَ الاٌّنْعَـمِ أَزْوجاً]

(et les bestiaux sont aussi par couples (littéralement : ont aussi leurs conjointes).) veut dire, et Il a crée pour vous une multitude (littéralement : huit) de couples d'animaux (différents).

[يَذْرَؤُكُمْ فِيهِ]

(Par cette manière Il vous a crées) veut dire, de cette façon Il vous a crée, hommes et femmes, génération après génération d'homme et d'animaux.

[لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَىْءٌ]

(Il n'y a rien qui soit comme Lui) veut dire, il n'y a rien (dans la création) qui soit comme le Créateur de ces couples, c'est ainsi qu'Il est Unique, qu'Il se suffit à Lui-même (littéralement : Auto-Suffisant), '''Qui n'a ni semblable ni égal.'''}}

Par conséquent le passage 42:11 du Coran déclare qu'Allah n'a pas de semblable parmi ce qu'il a crée sur cette Terre car Allah a crée toutes choses par couples. Dès lors qu'Allah n'a pas d'égal, il n'a pas de partenaire. Cela explique que parmi sa création 'il n'a pas de semblable'. Affirmer que "voir" et "entendre" ont des significations différentes quand ils concernant Allah est, encore une fois, en réalité une référence aux caractéristiques physiques (les 5 sens dans ce cas) et ne portent aucun intérêt sur la signification de ces mots.

C'est une erreur que le Dr. Badawi a faite en nous soumettant ces versets comme une évidence, que ces mots ont un sens différent quand ils font références à Allah étant donné que ces versets parlent clairement de la création physique et non sur la signification des mots comme ils devraient être définis quand Allah les utilise pour se décrire lui-même.

Même si nous voyons clairement que la déclaration de Badawi n'a aucunes base légitimes, celle-ci peut être éprouvée fausse :

1. Combien de mots ont de significations différentes quand ils sont en rapport avec Allah ? Nous avons déjà vu que Badawi a pris un mot avec un sens négatif et l'a tourné dans un sens positif, clamant qu'il signifiait 'révérence'. Cela veut dire que tous les mots négatifs décrivant Allah doivent être tournés dans un sens positif, même si on redéfini complètement le mot ? N'est-ce pas un cas de ''plaidoirie spéciale'' (''Special pleading'') <ref name="special">[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading Special pleading (logical fallacy)] - Wikipedia</ref>

2. Qui décide quel mot a une signification différente quand il se réfère à Allah ? C'est juste un moyen de cacher et de justifier les attributs négatifs d'Allah et par ce moyen d'égarer ceux qui n'ont pas une très grande connaissance sur l'Islam, le Coran et la langue arabe.

3. Le Coran nous dit: {{Quote|{{Quran|16|103}}| Et effectivement nous savons qu'ils disent : C'est seulement un mortel qui lui apprend. La langue de ceux qui le reprochent est vraiment incomplète, '''cette langue est de l'arabe très clair.''' }}

Si le Coran dit lui-même qu'il est d'un arabe clair, cela implique donc que la signification de ces mots sont comme on les comprend, et ne devraient pas être appliqué dans un cadre différent pour Allah. Si ''makir'' a un sens différent quand Allah l'utilise pour se référer à lui-même, alors cette partie du Coran (16:103) est absolument fausse. Est-ce que le Coran a tort ici ?

4. Dr.Badawi clame que "makir" a une définition différente quand il se réfère à Allah - donc le langage arabe courant n'est pas correct. D'ailleurs, le Coran déclare: {{Quote|{{Quran|3|7}}| Il est celui qui vous révélé le Livre, certains de ces versets sont clairs, ils sont la base du Livre, et d'autres sont allégoriques ; puis ceux qui ont de la perversité en eux abusent des parties allégoriques afin de détourner et chercher à imposer leur propre interprétation. Mais personne n'en a l'interprétation sauf Allah, et ceux qui sont enracinés dans la science répliquent: Nous croyons en ce Noble Coran, tout vient de notre Seigneur; et seuls les doués d'intelligence se rappellent. }}

Le Coran dit que certaines personnes essaient d'égarer en donnant leurs propres interprétations sur des passages du Coran. Dr.Badawi ne fait-il pas la même chose ? Si la "vérité" [quand elle se réfère à Allah] est inconnue de beaucoup, quel évidence a le Dr.Badawi pour nous la donner en support de sa "vérité" hétérodoxe ?

===Islam Q&A===

Islam Q&A déclare que les mots "comploter/tromper peuvent être présentes pour décrire Allah mais seulement dans un contexte positif :

{{Quote|1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/39803/|2=2011-04-10}} Est-ce qu'Allah peut être décrit comme un comploteur etc?] Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 39803|2='''Question:''' Est-ce qu'Allah peut être décrit comme un comploteur, un trompeur, un traître comme dans ses versets (traduction rapprochée):
“Ils ont comploté et Allah a comploté aussi”
[al-Anfaal 8:30]
“En vérité, les hypocrites ont cherché à tromper Allah, mais Il est Celui qui les trompe”
[al-Nisa’ 4:142]?. 

'''Réponse:''' Que la louange soit à Allah.

Les attributs d'Allah sont tous des attributs de perfection, le décrivant de la meilleure manière qu'il soit et avec une signification parfaite. Allah dit (traduction rapprochée):

“Et pour Allah est la meilleur description. et Il est le Tout-Puissant, le Très-Juste”

[al-Nahl 16:60]

“A Lui appartient la meilleur description (c'est à dire que personne n'a le droit d'être adoré excepté Lui, et il n'y a rien qui lui ressemble) dans les cieux et la terre. Et Il est le Tout-Puissant, le Très-Juste”

[al-Room 30:27]

Al-Sa'di a dit dans son Tafsir (en commentaire) - p. 718, 1065:

La meilleur description signifie les plus parfaits attributs.

Les attributs sont de trois types:

1 - '''Les attributs de perfection - dans lesquels il n'y a pas la moindre imperfection. Ces attributs s'appliquent à Allah dans le sens absolu et ne sont pas limités ou restreints d'aucune manière que ce soit.''' Par exemple, celles-ci peuvent contenir Sa connaissance, Son pouvoir, Son attention, Sa clairvoyance, Sa miséricorde, etc...

2 - '''Les attributs qui impliquent de l'imperfection ou des lacunes. Ceux-ci ne peuvent jamais s'attribuer à Allah, comme''' dormir, être incapable, '''commettre le mal ou oppresser, trahir''', etc.

3 - Les attributs qui peuvent être parfaits ou imparfaits, dépendamment du contexte. Ils ne peuvent pas être attribuer à Allah dans un sens absolu, et ils ne peuvent pas être rejeté dans la description d'Allah dans un sens absolu. '''Si le contexte fait ressortir de la perfection, cela est approprié pour Allah, dans le cas contraire, cela est inapproprié. Les exemples qui incluent : complotage, tromperie et moquerie.'''

'''Comploter contre, tricher ou se moquer de l'ennemi sont des attributs de perfection, car ils indiquent une connaissance entière, de même que du pouvoir et de la puissance, et ainsi de suite.'''

'''Mais comploter contre les croyants sincères est une marque d'imperfection.'''

Par conséquent ces caractéristiques ne sont pas attribuées à Allah dans un sens, plutôt ils sont mentionnés dans un tel contexte pour indiquer qu'ils sont des attributs de perfection.

Allah dit (traduction rapprochée):

'''“En vérité, les hypocrites ont cherché à tromper Allah, mais Il est Celui qui les a trompé”
[al-Nisa’ 4:142]'''

Il trompe ainsi les hypocrites.

Et Il dit (traduction rapprochée):

“Et (rappelle-toi) quand les mécréants ont comploté contre toi (Ô Mohammed) pour t'emprisonner, ou te tuer, ou te faire sortir (de chez toi, c'est à dire La Mecque); ils ont comploté mais Allah aussi a comploté, et Allah est le Meilleur d'entre ceux qui complotent”

[al-Anfaal 8:30]

C'est un complot contre les ennemis d'Allah qui eux aussi étaient en train de comploter contre le Messager d'Allah (que la paix et la bénédiction soient sur lui).

Allah dit sur les hypocrites (traduction rapprochée)

“Et quand ils ont rencontré ceux qui ont cru, ils ont dit ‘Nous croyons,’ mais quand ils sont seuls avec leurs djinns (démons - polythéistes, hypocrites), alors là ils disent: ‘Vraiment, nous sommes de tout cœur avec vous, en vérité, nous ne faisions que nous moquer.’

C'est Allah qui se moque d'eux et les laisse s'amplifier dans le mal aveuglément”

[al-Baqarah 2:14-15]

C'est de la moquerie contre les hypocrites.

'''Ces attributs doivent être perçus comme indicateurs de perfection dans ce contexte. Ce pourquoi nous disons qu'Allah se moque des hypocrites et les trompe, et qu'Il complote contre ses ennemis, et ainsi de suite. Mais il n'est pas admis de décrire Allah comme moqueur ou trompeur dans un terme général, parce que cela n'indique pas de perfection.'''

Cheikh Ibn 'Uthaymin (qu'Allah le préserve) a reçu une question: Est-ce qu'Allah peut être décrit comme comploteur et nommé dans ce terme?

Il a répondu:

Allaah cannot be described as plotting except in a limited sense; He cannot be described as such in absolute terms. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
Allah ne peut pas être réduit comme un comploteur excepté dans un contexte bien précis; Il ne peut pas être décrit ainsi dans un sens absolu. Allah dit (traduction rapprochée)

“Est-ce qu'il se sentent en sécurité contre le Plan d'Allah? Personne ne devrait se sentir à l'abri du Plan d'Allah à part les gens qui sont les perdus”

[al-A’raaf 7:99]

Le verset indique qu'Allah a un plan ou un complot, qui était de les rendre confus sans qu'ils ne le sachent. Cela s'apparente à un hadith rapporté par Bukhari: “La guerre c'est la tromperie.”

'''Si la question suivante se pose: Comment Allah peut être décrit comme un comploteur quand cela semble être quelque chose de condamnable?'''

'''La réponse est que la tromperie dans les bonnes circonstances peut être quelque chose de louable qui accentue la force du comploteur, et montre qu'il est supérieur à ses ennemis. Mais Allah ne peut être décrit comme comploteur dans un sens absolu, et l'on ne peut dire "Allah est un comploteur." Plutôt l'attribut est mentionné dans un contexte qui le rend positif, comme ces versets (traduction rapprochée):'''

'''“ils étaient dans leur complot mais Allah aussi comploté”'''

'''[al-Anfaal 8:30]'''

'''“ils ont donc comploté un complot, et Nous avons planifié un plan, qu'ils n'ont pas vu venir”'''

'''[al-Naml 27:50]'''

Et l'on ne peut pas dire dans un sens absolu que ces termes ne peuvent pas être en références à Allah, ils Lui sont seulement attribués quand le contexte le permet qu'il soit donc positif, et lors de contexte non positif, ces termes ne peuvent Le décrire. En conclusion Allah ne devrait pas être appelé par un mot qui peut faire ressortir un côté négatif, donc nous ne pouvons dire que l'un des noms d'Allah est "le Comploteur". Comploter est l'une de ses actions, mais cela appartient à la Volonté d'Allah.

Fatwa Cheikh Ibn 'Uthaymin, 1/170.

Il a été aussi demandé: Est-ce qu'Allah peut être décrit comme un tricheur, ou un trompeur, comme dans ces versets (traduction rapprochée):

“En vérité, les hypocrites ont cherché à tromper Allah, mais Il est Celui qui les a trompé”
[al-Nisa’ 4:142]?

Il a répondu

'''Concernant la trahison, c'est quelque chose qui ne pourrait jamais être affilé à Allah car ce terme est honteux dans toutes les conditions, et c'est une forme de comploterie dans une relation honnête, ce qui est condamnable.''' Allah dit (traduction rapprochée):

“Mais si ils ont essayé de te trahir (Ô Mohammed), ils avaient déjà essayé de trahir Allah avant. Il t'a donc donner pouvoir sur eux. Et Allah est l'Omniscient, le le Plus-Sage”

[al-Anfaal 8:71]

Alors qu'il n'est pas dit : Donc Il les a trahis.

Pour ce qui est de la tromperie, elle est comparable à la tromperie. Allah peut être défini de la sorte quand c'est quelque chose de positive, mais pas le défini dans un sens général. Allah dit (traduction rapprochée):

“En vérité, les hypocrites ont essayé de tromper Allah, mais Il est Celui qui les a trompés”
[al-Nisa’ 4:142]

Fatwa Cheikh Ibn 'Uthayminn, 1/171

Et Allah sait mieux.}}

Comme l'érudit Jamal Badawi, c'est encore un cas de ''plaidoirie spéciale'' (''Special pleading'') <ref name="special"/>. Il rajoute un sens au texte qui n'est pas là, dans le but de protéger volontairement un certain ensemble de croyances que IslamQ&A tient : dont :

# Allah est Dieu
# Allah est parfait
# que la 'perfection' est synonyme de 'bien'
# que 'perfection' est synonyme de 'vérité'
# qu'Allah ne ment et ne trompe jamais

Cependant quand nous regardons ces versets en question, le même mot est appliqué aux non-croyants et aussi à Allah. Donc vous devez accepter le fait que dès lors qu'Allah est parfait, la signification du mot change selon son sujet. Mais il n'y a aucunes évidences que ce soit le cas. En aucun cas le Coran indique implicitement ou même implique que les mots prennent d'autres sens quand ils se réfèrent à Allah, il n'existe aussi aucun hadith à cet effet. C'est un clair coups de "plaidoirie spéciale", inventé par les Musulmans pour excuser le fait que le mot exact que leur dieu déclare et qu'il est le meilleur trompeur.

Si n'importe quel personne se vante d'être parfait, mais dévoile un trait d'imperfection (tromperie, comploterie etc...) on sait déjà deux choses sur lui :
# c'est un menteur
# il n'est pas parfait

Allah nous avoue dans le Coran qu'il est le meilleur dupeur - nous avons sa propre admission qu'il est imparfait et menteur.

=== Harun Yahya ===

Harun Yahya inclut ''Al-Makir'' dans sa liste des 99 plus beaux noms d'Allah:

{{ quote |[http://www.harunyahya.com/books/faith/names/names04.php#16 Names of Allah/ No. 16 (Al-Makir)] Harun Yayha (anglais)| '''AL-MAKIR'''
'''Le planificateur'''

:'''Quand ceux des incroyants étaient en train de comploter pour t'emprisonner ou te tuer ou t'expulser: ils étaient en train de comploter et Allah était en train de comploter mais Allah est le Meilleur des Planificateurs. (Sourate al-Anfal, 8:30)'''

Ceux qui ont complotés contre la religion de la vérité pendant toute leur vie à essayer d'en éloigner les gens pour leurs propres désirs égoïstes (avidité pour leur pouvoir, intérêts personnels, et ainsi de suite). Dans l'au-delà, on leur dira: “'''Non, c'était de votre sournoise intrigue de nous commander de rejeter Dieu et de lui assigner des égales, vous y travailliez nuit et jour'''.” (Surah Saba', 34:33) Et là c'est un point très important que nous avons besoin de nous rappeler:

:'''Ceux avant eux ont comploté, mais toute la planification appartient à Allah. Il sait ce que châque acquiert, et les non-croyants suaront qui aura l'Ultime Demeure. (Sourate ar-Ra‘d, 13:42)'''

Comme relaté dans le verset au-dessus, “toute la planification appartient à Allah.” Finalement, contre tous les complots des incroyants', Allah a préparé le meilleur plan. Allah attire notre attention sur l'impasse dont se retrouvera les non-croyants:
:'''Ils ont concocté leurs complots, mais ces derniers étaient inscrit auprès d'Allah même si leurs complots étaient assez puissants pour faire écrouler les montagnes.'''(Sourate Ibrahim, 14:46)'''

Comme ce verset le relate, Allah protège tous les croyants de leurs complots. Cela est aisé pour Allah. Ceux qui dirigent leurs complots contre Ses Messagers et croyants tombent de haut et ils subiront les conséquences désastreuses qui en découlent, comme approuvé par le Coran “… '''Allah est plus rapide en planification'''...” (Sourate Yunus, 10:21)

Pas de doute, Allah a crée (dans le sens : a laissé surgir) tous les malheurs dans un but prédestiné et pour la bien ultime. Il laisse les incroyants' comploté contre les croyants pour les éprouver. A la suite de cela, Il étend son aide et son assistance sur ses serviteurs qui savent distinguer le bien de la tentation dans les événements qu'Il a crée, afin que tout cela se retourne à leur avantage.}}

Avec la même perspective que le docteur Badawi a interprété "makir", Harun Yahya a essayé de faire tourner le sens de ce mot quand le sujet est Allah. Plutôt inquiétant, le premer verset cité au dessus (Coran 8:30) a actuellement été incorrectement cité par Yahya sur son passage dans son site web. La traduction donnée, qui blâme le peuple transgresseur de comploteur, mais Allah de planificateur, n'existe encore pas. Ce n'est sûrement pas une erreur ou un oubli de Yahya, la cause étant qu'on peut trouver autre part sur site<ref>[http://www.harunyahya.com/books/faith/school/school2.php The School of Yusuf - Harun Yahya]</ref><ref>[http://www.harunyahya.com/ysf03.php The Prophet Yusuf - Harun Yahya]</ref> que le verset a été cité correctement;Allah et le peuple ont les deux l'étiquette de de "comploteur". Encore une fois dans sa citation du Coran 13:42, Yahya a mal cité le verset - étiquetant les incroyants de "comploteur" mais Allah de "planificateur".

Ces déformations ont été délibérément exposées sur cette page vu que Harun Yahya a volontairement attribué le nom ''Al Makir'' directement à Allah, mais clamant que ça voulait simplement dire "Le planificateur". Dans le but de tricher sur la connotation du mot afin qu'elle soit positive, traduire le même mot différemment dans les passages 8:30 et 13:42 du Coran étaient nécessaires pour peindre Allah comme une bonne personne, et les non croyants (comme mentionné dans les versets) comme des insidieux. Si ils avaient établi la vérité - le fait que 'comploteur' désigne aussi bien Allah que les incroyants, cela impliquerait alors que Allah complote dans le même type de légitimité et d'activité que les non-croyants. Par conséquent Allah serait présenté sous un mauvais point de vue, ainsi que les Musulmans - car ils sont ceux qui lui sont soumis (comme relayé par Mohammed).

=== Allah trompe seulement ses ennemis ===

Tandis que les réclamations des musulmans comme 'vous ne prenez pas en compte le contexte' sont couramment illégitimes, en se basant sur cette accusation apologétique, notre travail a du mérite. Compte tenu du contexte des versets fournies au-dessus, il est clair que ces apologétiques rétorquent qu'Allah trompe seulement ses ennemis. Au contraire, ce dont le verset nous informe est une déclaration qui ne peut être plus explicite - ''Allah est le meilleur trompeur''. Cette phrase ne suggère pas une autre déclaration de la sorte : 'Allah est meilleur en tromperie que ses ennemis". Ensuite, dans ces versets, nous avons la (supposé) omniscience (celui qui sait tout) d'Allah, qui nous dit d'emblée qu'il est le meilleur trompeur. Avec son attribut d'omniscience, il serait avertit de toute personne meilleur que lui en tromperie.

Si quelqu'un d'omniscient vous confie qu'il est le meilleur trompeur, et que vous acceptez ça (en tant que musulman) comment pouvez-vous lui annoncer que vous lui faites confiance et que vous êtes surs qu'il ne vous trompera pas? Après tout, si il s'auto-critique comme étant le "meilleur" à la tromperie, si il décide de vous tromper, il serait très peu probable que vous soyez en mesure de détecter sa tromperie si vous vous laisse guider par ses mots dans votre vie. Qui d'autre comme ange-gardien peut confirmer la véracité de ces dires dans le Coran? Dans le pire des cas si il vous disiez qu'il était honnête avec vous, vous sauriez déjà que vous devrez rester sceptique à le croire puisqu'il a déjà avoué être le "meilleur trompeur" - il pourrait se cacher une autre tromperie.

De plus, il y a des versets dans le Coran qui nous montrent qu'Allah ne s'engage pas dans la tromperie seulement contre ses ennemis, comme indiqué ci-dessus dans les versets.

==== Allah trompe aussi les Musulmans ====

{{quote | {{cite quran|8|43|end=44|style=ref}} | Quand Allah te les avait montrés peux nombreux; et Il a voulu te les montrer dans ce nombre sinon tu aurais certainement disputé sur ce sujet et ta poitrine se serait resserré, mais Allah t'as sauvé de tout cela; effectivement Il est le Connaisseur du contenu des poitrines.

Et quand Allah te les avait montrés, quand tu étais sur le front du combat, peux nombreux à tes yeux et Il a vous a fait apparaître aussi peu nombreux à leurs yeux, c'est ainsi qu'Allah a parfait un événement qui était déjà prédestiné, et à Allah retourne toutes les affaires .}}

Dans les versets ci-dessus, on peut percevoir qu'Allah affirme d'avoir trompé Mohammed lui-même, dans un rêve, en illusionnant les forces ennemis moines nombreuses qu'ils ne l'étaient, afin de l'intriguer lui, Mohamed ainsi que ses disciples car il ne voulait pzd que les Musulmans soient intimidés (et désertent le combat). Voici par exemple le tafsir d'Ibn Kathir à ce sujet:

{{quote |1=[http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=8&tid=20236 Some Details of the Battle of Badr (Quelques détails de la bataille de Badr) (8:43)] Tafsir 'ibn Kathir (anglais)|2=[إِذْ يُرِيكَهُمُ اللَّهُ فِى مَنَامِكَ قَلِيلاً وَلَوْ أَرَاكَهُمْ كَثِيراً لَّفَشِلْتُمْ وَلَتَنَـزَعْتُمْ فِى الاٌّمْرِ وَلَـكِنَّ اللَّهَ سَلَّمَ إِنَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِذَاتِ الصُّدُورِ - وَإِذْ يُرِيكُمُوهُمْ إِذِ الْتَقَيْتُمْ فِى أَعْيُنِكُمْ قَلِيلاً وَيُقَلِّلُكُمْ فِى أَعْيُنِهِمْ لِيَقْضِىَ اللَّهُ أَمْراً كَانَ مَفْعُولاً وَإِلَى اللَّهِ تُرْجَعُ الأُمُورُ ]

(43. (Et rappelle-toi) quand Allah te les avait montrés peux nombreux dans ton rêve, si Il te les avait montrés le nombre qu'ils étaient, tu aurais été surement découragé''', et tu aurais certainement disputer dans ta décision. Mais Allah vous a sauvé. En effet, Il est le Grand Connaisseur de ce cache les poitrines.) (44. Et (rappelle-toi) quand vous les avait rencontrés, '''Il vous les avait montrés peux nombreux dans votre regard and Il vous a fait apparaître peux nombreux dans leurs yeux, ceci afin qu'Allah accomplisse un décret déjà ordonné''', et à Allah reviennent toutes les affaires (pour la décision).)

Mujahid a rapporté, "dans un rêve, Allah a montré au Prophète ses ennemis peu nombreux. Le prophète a relayé cette nouvelle à ses Compagnons et cela leur résolution a été renforcée.'' La même informations a été rapporté par Ibn Ishaq et quelques autres. Allah a dit

[وَلَوْ أَرَاكَهُمْ كَثِيراً لَّفَشِلْتُمْ]

(Si Il vous les avait montrés nombreux comme ils l'étaient, vous auriez surement été découragé,) vous vous seriez lâchement abstenu de les rencontrer et vous seriez rentré dans la dispute,

[وَلَـكِنَّ اللَّهَ سَلَّمَ]

(Mais Allah vous sa sauvés), de tout ça, quand Il vous les a fait voir peu nombreux

[إِنَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِذَاتِ الصُّدُورِ]

(Certainement, Il est le Grand-Connaisseur du contenu des poitrines.) [8:43]

Allah sait ce que votre poitrine et votre conscience cachent,

[يَعْلَمُ خَآئِنَةَ الاٌّعْيُنِ وَمَا تُخْفِى الصُّدُورُ ]

(Allah voit les les mauvais regards, et tout ce que votre poitrine cache) [40:19].

La déclaration d'Allah

[وَإِذْ يُرِيكُمُوهُمْ إِذِ الْتَقَيْتُمْ فِى أَعْيُنِكُمْ قَلِيلاً]

(Et (rappelez-vous) quand vous les avait rencontrés, '''Il vous les a montrés peu nombreux à vos yeux) démontre la compassion d'Allah envers les croyants. Allah a rendu l'apparence des mécréants peu nombreux à leurs yeux, afin qu'ils ne soient pas découragés et soient à même de les rencontrer'''. Abu Ishaq As-Subai'i a dit, que Abu 'Ubaydah a rapporté que 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud a dit, "Ils ont été rendu peu nombreux à vos yeux durant la bataille de Badr, au point où je dis à un homme à côté de moi, 'Penses-tu qu'ils soient une soixantaine' Il a dit, 'Plutôt, ils sont une centaine.' D'ailleurs, quand nous avons capturé l'un d'entre eux, nous lui avons demandé leur nombre et il a dit, 'Nous étions mille.''' Ibn Abi Hatim et Ibn Jarir l'ont enregistré. Allah a dit par la suite,

[وَيُقَلِّلُكُمْ فِى أَعْيُنِهِمْ]

(Et Il vous a fait apparaître peu nombreux à leurs yeux,) Allah dit,

[وَإِذْ يُرِيكُمُوهُمْ إِذِ الْتَقَيْتُمْ]

(Et (rappelez-vous) quand vous les avait rencontré. Il vous les a montrés....), Il a encouragé chacun des deux groupes contre l'autre, accordé par 'Ikrimah, comme rapport& par Ibn Abi Hatim.

}}

Kathir relève pour lui plutôt dans cet événement de la "compassion" de la part d'Allah pour avoir montrer les adversaires de Mohammed 'moins nombreux' alors qu'ils étaient nombreux, cela n'empêche pas le fait qu'Allah a trompé les musulmans de cette manière - c'était une tromperie évidente et simple. Si nous vous disons que vous êtes condamnés à 3 ans sous les barreaux grâce à votre déclaration sous serment, mais nous savons (et dissimulons) la vérité que vous y resterez actuellement 6 ans, ce n'est pas ce qu'on appelle de la compassion, c'est juste de la tromperie pur et dur. Dans le même ordre d'idée, on peut clairement manifester qu'Allah a délibérément tromper les Musulmans dans ces versets pour leur faire ce qu'Il a envie qu'ils fassent, ([[The Meaning of Qatal|ici se battre]]). Cette exemple seul réfute toutes les réclamations "qu'Allah trompe trompe seulement ses ennemis" alors que nous pouvons savoir qu'Allah a trompé Mohammed - uswa hasana - à partir de là il n'est effectivement pas improbable qu'Allah trompera et a trompé d'autres Musulmans avant et après cette événement.

==== Allah a crée lui-même le Christianisme grâce à la tromperie====

Selon l'Islam, [[Jesus|Jésus]] n'est pas [[God|Dieu]], et il n'a ''pas'' été crucifié, malgré tout, l'une des plus grandes religions a prit ses bases de la mort de Jésus' sur la croix et de sa résurrection ultérieure. C'est le cœur même du Christianisme. Allah néanmoins, revendique sans le moindre doute dans le Coran que Jésus n'a jamais été crucifié (et n'est même pas mort) et il n'est du tout le fils de Dieu, impliquant que les Chrétiens sont vraiment égarés dans leurs croyances. Mais pourquoi alors les Chrétiens croient qu'il a été crucifié ? Parce que Allah admet qu'il a crée ce trompe-l’œil :

{{quote | {{cite quran|4|157|end=158|style=ref}}|et à cause leur parole : "Nous avons vraiment tué le Christ, Jésus, fils de Marie, le Messager d'Allah"... Or, ils ne l'ont ni tué ni crucifié; '''mais ce n'était qu'un faux semblant!''' Et ceux qui ont discuté sur son sujet sont vraiment dans l'incertitude : ils n'en ont aucune connaissance certaine, ils ne font que suivre des conjectures et ils ne l'ont certainement pas tué.
mais Allah l'a élevé vers Lui. Et Allah est Puissant et Sage.. }}

Donc nous savons qu'Allah reconnaît avoir crée ce mirage (pour les gens) que Jésus n'a pas été crucifié sur la croix (et en est mort), mais qu'Allah l'a élevé vers lui (il l'a monté au ciel). Encore une fois Allah admet de tromper les gens. Pour les 6 siècles qui sont passés, Allah s'est assis et a admiré tous ces gens qui se sont convertis et ont soutenu le Christianisme; une religion qui est née de la tromperie d'Allah, mais il n'a pas bouger un doigt pour remettre les choses en place pendant ces 600 ans, et plus tard il envoya Mohammed avec le Coran - pour arranger le désordre qu'Il a lui-même crée.

Revoyons un autre point essentiel maintenant; Allah a envoyé Jésus pour réparer les erreurs qui ont été introduites dans le Judaïsme, mais Allah annule toutes les corrections que Jésus était censé amener en illusionnant sa crucifixion et en l'élevant au ciel. Cela annule tout l'objectif même de l'envoi de Jésus et laisse les contemporains de cette époque non avec la seule religion véridique d'Allah, mais deux religions : Judaïsme et Christianisme qui implique (parmi d'autres choses) de suivre le message de Jésus, qu'Allah lui-même a corrompu en montant Jésus vers les cieux. Alors pour les 600 ans, la pure religion d'Allah ne pouvait pas être trouvée et répandue sur cette Terre et maintenant (merci à la tromperie d'Allah) Il a amené deux religions concurrentes pour tromper les gens et les éloigner du "droit chemin". Cela n'a aucun sens.

==== Conclusion ====

Pour conclure on peut voir que ces objections (sur le contexte) sont impertinentes car la déclaration de ces versets est définitive (ne dépend pas du contexte) et à partir du Coran lui-même, nous remarquons qu'Allah n'a pas de problème à tromper :
* "Les ennemis de L'Islam"
* Les musulmans
* Les personnes innocentes - qui ont vécu pendant ces 600 ans d'écart entre l'Evangile et la venue du Coran

==Réponses aux apologétiques==
#'''''"Selon le site corpus de l'arabe coranique, 'Makr' signifie 'Planificateur'"''''' Le site corpus d'arabe coranique déclare en même temps que ''Idriboohunna'' dans le Coran en 4:34 veut dire "[[Beat_your_Wives_or_Separate_from_Them_-_Quran_4-34|séparez-vous d'elle]]" (c.-à-d. les maris de leurs époux) plutôt que "frappez-les" pour la peur de la désobéissance. Cependant, ''Idriboohunna'' (أضربوهن) signifie "frappez-les" (du pluriel féminin). ''Adriboo Anhunna'' (اضربوا عنهن) est la phrase qui se traduit par délaissez or séparez-vous d'elle. Ce sont des phrases totalement différentes avec des sens complètement opposés, et les tentatives pour combiner les deux est une façon moderne utilisée par quelques musulmans occidentaux. Pour sa crédibilité, le site a reconnu cette erreur en corrigeant cette fausse traduction flagrante, et ils ont ainsi montré qu'ils étaient une source douteuse pour la langue arabe. En tout cas, le Edward William Lane's ''Arabic-English Lexicon (Lexique arabe-anglais)'' (le dictionnaire anglais le plus révéré et le plus fiable de la langue arabe), ''Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic (le dictionnaire Hans Wehr de l'écriture arabe moderne'', and the ''Arabic Lexicon (le lexique arabe)'' sont tous en désaccord avec le site corpus de l'arabe coranique (Quranic Arabic Corpus website's) pour la définition du mot. Et une seule de ces sources est plus fiable que le site web. A ajouter à la pile de ces sources confirmées, Dr. Jamal Badawi et Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajjid qui sont deux arabophones de naissance et des personnes respectables (sur le thème de l'Islam). Bien qu'ils essayent de justifier l'utilisation de ce mot, ils admettent tous deux que makr veut dire trompeur.

{{Core POTB}}

==Voir aussi==

* [[Les articles en francais - Articles in French|Les articles en français (Articles in French)]]

'''En anglais'''

{{Hub4|Lying|Lying}}
{{Hub4|Allah|Allah}}

{{Translation-links-francais|[[Allah_the_Best_Deceiver|anglaise]]}}

== Liens externes (en anglais)==

* [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/allah_best_deceiver.htm|2=2011-11-24}} Allah the greatest deceiver of them all]
* [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/cornelius/makr.html|2=2011-11-24}} Allah: Truthful or Deceiver?]
* [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/deceptive_god.htm|2=2011-11-24}} Deceptive God, Incompetent Messiah]

'''Ressources'''

* [http://www.ghazali.org/books/wehr-cowan-76.pdf Hans-Wehr Dictionary - mkr (page 917)] ''(40MB PDF file)''
* [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume7/00000256.pdf|2=2011-11-24}} Lane's Lexicon - mkr - Volume 7, Page 256]
* [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.studyquran.co.uk/14_MIIM.htm|2=2011-11-24}} Lane's Lexicon online summary - Mim-Kaf-Ra]

== Références ==
{{Reflist|30em}}

[[Category:Français (French)]]

Allah, the Best Deceiver (Qur'an 3:54)

2015-03-14T21:01:47Z

Heitri2: /* Jamal Badawi */ updated the tafsir link

[[File:Quran 3-54.png|290px|right|thumb]]
The [[Qur'an]] openly states many times that [[Allah]] is the 'best deceiver'. The root word used in these verses is ''Makr'' which means ''deception''.
==Introduction==

The Qur'an openly states many times that Allah is the 'best deceiver'. The root word used in these verses is ''Makr'' which means ''deception''. The literal translations presented here, referenced from a Muslim [[websites|website]], make this very clear. However, the majority of Qur'anic translations [[Mistranslated Verses|erroneously translate]] this term; as can be seen in the following quotes and analysis.

Although there are many places in the Qur'an that use the same word (makir) in reference to Allah,<ref>[http://www.irreduciblefifth.force9.co.uk/burhan/b.x.311.htm Quran root browser - م ك ر - m-k-r]</ref> this article will focus only on the verses in which Allah describes himself as the 'best deceiver'.

===Definitions===

{{quote |1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.yourdictionary.com/deceive|2=2011-04-10}} Deceive definition] Webster's New World College Dictionary|2='''<big>de·ceive</big>''' (dē sēv′, di-)

'''''transitive verb'' deceived -·ceived′, deceiving -·ceiv′·ing'''
#to make (a person) believe what is not true; delude; mislead
#Archaic to be false to; betray
#Archaic to while away (time)

Etymology: ME ''deceiven'' < OFr ''deceveir'' < L ''decipere'', to ensnare, ''deceive'' < de-, from + ''capere'', to take.

'''''intransitive verb'''''
to use deceit; '''lie'''

'''Related Forms:'''
:• '''deceivable de·ceiv′·able ''adjective'''''
:• '''deceiver de·ceiv′er ''noun'''''
:• '''deceivingly de·ceiv′·ingly ''adverb'''''}}

== Qur'an ==

In the following Qur'an verses, Allah reveals to us that he is the "best deceiver".

=== Qur'an 3:54 ===

{{quote |{{Qtt|3|54}}|
'''Arabic:''' ومكروا ومكر الله والله خير الماكرين

'''Transliteration:''' Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena

'''Literal:''' And they cheated/deceived and God cheated/deceived, and God (is) the best (of) the cheaters/deceivers.<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://iknowledge.islamicnature.com/quran/surah/3/lang/englishliteral/|2=2011-08-25}} 3. Ali-Imran - The Family Of 'Imran (سورة آل عمران) - Revealed in Madinah (English: Literal)] - IslamicNature, accessed August 25, 2011</ref>}}

=== Qur'an 7:99 ===

{{quote |{{Qtt|7|99}}|
'''Arabic:''' افامنوا مكر الله فلايامن مكر الله الا القوم الخاسرون

'''Transliteration:''' Afaaminoo makra Allahi fala ya/manu makra Allahi illa alqawmu alkhasiroona
'''Literal:''' Did they secure God's scheme/deceit ? So no(one) trusts God's scheme/deceit except the nation the losers.<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://iknowledge.islamicnature.com/quran/surah/7/lang/englishliteral/|2=2011-08-25}} 7. Al-A'raf - The Heights (سورة الأعراف) - Revealed in Makkah (English: Literal)] - IslamicNature, accessed August 25, 2011</ref>}}

=== Qur'an 8:30 ===

{{quote |{{Qtt|8|30}}|
'''Arabic:''' واذ يمكر بك الذين كفروا ليثبتوك او يقتلوك او يخرجوك ويمكرون ويمكر الله والله خير الماكرين

'''Transliteration:''' Wa-ith yamkuru bika allatheena kafaroo liyuthbitooka aw yaqtulooka aw yukhrijooka wayamkuroona wayamkuru Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena
'''Literal:''' And when those who disbelieved deceive/scheme at you to affix/affirm you, or kill you, or bring you out, and they scheme/deceive , and God deceives/schemes and God (is) best (of) the deceivers/schemers.<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://iknowledge.islamicnature.com/quran/surah/8/lang/englishliteral/|2=2011-08-25}} 8. Al-Anfal - Spoils Of War (سورة الأنفال) - Revealed in Madinah (English: Literal)] - IslamicNature, accessed August 25, 2011</ref>}}

=== Qur'an 10:21 ===

{{quote |{{Qtt|10|21}}|
'''Arabic:''' واذا اذقنا الناس رحمة من بعد ضراء مستهم اذا لهم مكر في اياتنا قل الله اسرع مكرا ان رسلنا يكتبون ماتمكرون

'''Transliteration:''' Wa-itha athaqna alnnasa rahmatan min baAAdi darraa massat-hum itha lahum makrun fee ayatina quli Allahu asraAAu makran inna rusulana yaktuboona ma tamkuroona
'''Literal:''' And if We made the people taste/experience mercy from after calamity/disastrous distress touched them, then for them (is) cheatery/deceit/schemes in Our verses/evidences . Say: "God (is) quicker/faster (in) cunning/scheming , that Our messengers write what you cheat/ deceive/scheme."<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://iknowledge.islamicnature.com/quran/surah/10/lang/englishliteral/|2=2011-08-25}} 10. Yunus - Jonah (سورة يونس) - Revealed in Makkah (English: Literal)] - IslamicNature, accessed August 25, 2011</ref>}}

=== Qur'an 13:42 ===

{{quote |{{Qtt|13|42}}|
'''Arabic:''' وقد مكر الذين من قبلهم فلله المكر جميعا يعلم ماتكسب كل نفس وسيعلم الكفار لمن عقبى الدار

'''Transliteration:''' Waqad makara allatheena min qablihim falillahi almakru jameeAAan yaAAlamu ma taksibu kullu nafsin wasayaAAlamu alkuffaru liman AAuqba alddari
'''Literal:''' And those from before them had cheated/deceived/schemed, so to God (is) all the cheatery/deceit/scheme. He knows what every self gains/acquires , and the disbelievers will know to whom (is) the house's/home's end/turn (result).<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://iknowledge.islamicnature.com/quran/surah/13/lang/englishliteral/|2=2011-08-25}} 13. Ar-Ra'd - The Thunder (سورة الرعد) - Revealed in Makkah (English: Literal)] - IslamicNature, accessed August 25, 2011</ref>}}

The word makir is always used disparagingly, and never in a positive context. It is often used to describe someone sly and dishonest. This is because of the way a makir deceives - they set out to cheat you by deception. It is highly inappropriate for Allah to use this word to describe himself; especially when two of his names are الحق (the truth) and الوكيل (the dependable).

==Literal Meaning of Makr==
This section quotes numerous academic sources to study the meaning of ''Makr''.

===Lane's Lexicon===

Edward William Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon is the most revered and scholarly English dictionary of the Arabic language. From Lane's Lexicon (the full entry can be viewed [[:File:Makr Lane-Lexicon-page Vol 7-pg. 256.jpg|here]]):

{{Quote|1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.studyquran.co.uk/14_MIIM.htm|2=2013-07-21}} Lane's Lexicon: "Miim"]|2='''Miim-Kaf-Ra''' = To practice deceit or guile or circumvention, practice evasion or elusion, to plot, to excercise art or craft or cunning, act with policy, practice strategem.

''makara'' vb. (1){{br}}
perf. act. 3:54, 3:54, 7:123, 13:42, 14:46, 16:26, 16:45, 27:50, 40:45, 71:22{{br}}
impf. act. 6:123, 6:123, 6:124, 8:30, 8:30, 8:30, 10:21, 12:102, 16:127, 27:70, 35:10{{br}}
n.vb. 7:99, 7:99, 7:123, 10:21, 10:21, 12:31, 13:33, 13:42, 14:46, 14:46, 14:46, 27:50, 27:50, 27:51, 34:33, 35:10, 35:43, 35:43, 71:22{{br}}
pcple. act. 3:54, 8:30

[[:File:Makr Lane-Lexicon-page Vol 7-pg. 256.jpg|LL, V7, p: 256]]}}

===Hans Wehr===

The Hans Wehr dictionary is regarded as the standard scholarly dictionary of Arabic for English-speaking students and scholars of the language. It also confirms the meaning of the term:

{{Quote|[[:File:Hans Wehr dictionary - page 917.jpg|Hans Wehr dictionary, page 917]]|[[File:Hans Wehr dictionary - page 917.jpg|300px]]}}

===Arabic Lexicon===

{{Quote|1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://lexicons.sakhr.com/openme.aspx?fileurl=/html/1088382.html|2=2013-07-21}} Arabic Lexicon on ''Al-Makr'']|2=[[File:Arabic-lexicon for Al-Makr.gif]]}}

{{Quote|1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://lexicons.sakhr.com/openme.aspx?fileurl=/html/3076064.html|2=2013-07-21}} Arabic Lexicon on ''Makir'']|2=[[File:Arabic-lexicon for Makir.gif]]}}

===Miscellaneous Dictionaries===

Meanings from other dictionaries and sources have been compiled below:
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Dictionary
! width = 100px | Word
! Meaning
|-
| [http://translate.google.com/ Google Translate]
| ماكر (Makir)
| ''sly, cunning, deceitful'' ([http://translate.google.com/ read more])
|-
| [http://translation.babylon.com/Arabic Babylon.com]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''n. calculating, cunning, astuteness, craftiness, foxiness, craft, slyness, archness, deceit, double-dealing, artifice, deception, wiliness, artfulness, furtiveness, ploy, trick, guile, ruse, roguery''
|-
| [http://www.Stars21.com TranStar]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''wiliness'' (means: "Full of wiles" [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wiliness Merriam-Webster])
|-
| [http://qamoose.arabeyes.org/dict_main.cgi ArabEyes.com]
| المكر (Al-Makr)
| ''deception''
|-
| [http://www.ebnmasr.net/wtranslate/ Ibn Masr]
| المكر (Al-Makr)
| ''deception''
|-
| [http://www.systranet.com/?text=%D9%85%D9%83%D8%B1&lp=ar_en SYSTRAnet.com]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''deception''
|-
| [http://free.translated.net/ Translated.net]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''deception''
|-
| [http://freetranslation.paralink.com/ ImTranslator.com]
| المكر (Al-Makr)
| ''deviousness''
|-
| [http://freetranslation.paralink.com/ ImTranslator.com]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''wiliness''
|-
| [http://online.ectaco.co.uk/main.jsp?do=e-services-dictionaries-word_translate1&direction=1&status=translate&lang1=23&lang2=ar&refid=-1&source=deception Ectaco]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''deception''
|}

== Deceptive Translators ==

The following are the English translations of the selected verses. As mentioned above, makir is never used in a positive sense - it denotes a shifty, sly person who uses deception as a means to their ends.

We see that most of the translators have taken makir (with one of its possible translations 'scheme') to mean 'a systematic plan of action', and have translated makir to mean 'planner' or 'plotter'. However this completely disregards the accepted connotations of the word and the context of the given verses. Makir does not mean planner. Just because makir can be translated as scheme, and scheme can mean plan/plot, this does not mean that you can translate makir as planner/plotter. This is dishonesty on the part of those translators.

Since the same word is used for both the unbelievers and Allah, in most cases the translators have opted for the more benign (and incorrect) translation in order to avoid revealing what, according to the Qur'an, Allah has truly said about himself.

=== Qur'an 3:54 ===

{{quote ||
'''Yusuf Ali:''' And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah. <ref name="iw3-54">{{quran-ia|3|54}}</ref>}}

{{quote ||
'''Pickthal:''' And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Arberry:''' And they devised, and God devised, and God is the best of devisers. <ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Shakir:''' And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners. <ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Sarwar:''' The unbelievers plotted and God planned, but God is a much better planner;<ref name="iw3-54"/> }}

{{quote ||
'''Khalifa:''' They plotted and schemed, but so did GOD, and GOD is the best schemer.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Hilali/Khan:''' And they (disbelievers) plotted (to kill Iesa (Jesus) ), and Allah planned too. And Allah is the Best of the planners. <ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''H/K/Saheeh:''' And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners. <ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Malik:''' The unbelievers among the children of Israel plotted against Jesus and Allah also devised a plan to raise him up, and Allah is the best in planning. <ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''QXP:''' The opponents made some plans, but so did Allah. And Allah is the Virtuous of planners. (They schemed to arrest and crucify Jesus but Allah assured him). <ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Maulana Ali:''' And (the Jews) planned and Allah (also) planned. And Allah is the best of planners. <ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Free Minds:''' And they schemed and God schemed, but God is the best schemer. <ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Qaribullah:''' They devised, and Allah devised. And Allah is the Best Devisor. <ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''George Sale:''' And the Jews devised a stratagem against him; but God devised a stratagem against them; and God is the best deviser of stratagems. <ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''JM Rodwell:''' And the Jews plotted, and God plotted: But of those who plot is God the best. <ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Asad:''' And the unbelievers schemed [against Jesus]; but God brought their scheming to nought: for God is above all schemers. <ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Palmer:''' But they (the Jews) were crafty, and God was crafty, for God is the best of crafty ones! <ref>[http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated&layout=auto&searchstring=003:054 Quran Browser - Quran 3:54]</ref>}}

=== Qur'an 7:99 ===

{{quote ||
'''Yusuf Ali:''' Did they then feel secure against the plan of Allah?- but no one can feel secure from the Plan of Allah, except those (doomed) to ruin! <ref name="iw7-99"> {{quran-ia|7|99}}</ref>}}

{{quote ||
'''Pickthal:''' Are they then secure from Allah's scheme? None deemeth himself secure from Allah's scheme save folk that perish. <ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Arberry:''' Do they feel secure against God's devising? None feels secure against God's devising but the people of the lost. <ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Shakir:''' What! do they then feel secure from Allah's plan? But none feels secure from Allah's plan except the people who shall perish. <ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Sarwar:''' Did they consider themselves secure from the retribution of God? No one can have such attitude except those who are lost. <ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Khalifa:''' Have they taken GOD's plans for granted? None takes GOD's plans for granted except the losers. <ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Hilali/Khan:''' Did they then feel secure against the Plan of Allah. None feels secure from the Plan of Allah except the people who are the losers. <ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''H/K/Saheeh:''' Then did they feel secure from the plan of Allah? But no one feels secure from the plan of Allah except the losing people. <ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Malik:''' Do these people feel secure against the plan of Allah? In fact, only those people feel secure from the plan of Allah who are doomed to destruction. <ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''QXP:''' Do they feel secure from the subtle progression of the Divine Laws? Do they think that the Divine Law grants them unconditional security? Only the losers feel secure from the subtle progression of Allah's Law of Requital. <ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Maulana Ali:''' Are they secure from Allah’s plan? But none feels secure from Allah’s plan except the people who perish. <ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Free Minds:''' Have they become sure about God's scheming? None are sure about God's scheming except the people who are losers. <ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Qaribullah:''' (In reply to your devising) do they feel secure from the devising of Allah? None feels secure from the devising of Allah except the loosing nation. <ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''George Sale:''' Were they therefore secure from the stratagem of God? But none will think himself secure from the stratagem of God, except the people who perish. <ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''JM Rodwell:''' Did they, therefore, deem themselves secure from the deep counsel of God? But none deem themselves secure from the deep counsel of God, save those who perish. <ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Asad:''' Can they, then, ever feel secure from God's deep devising? But none feels secure from God's deep devising save people who are [already] lost.' <ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Palmer:''' were they secure from the craft of God? none feel secure from the craft of God except a people that shall lose. <ref>[http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated&layout=auto&searchstring=007:099 Quran Browser - Quran 7:99]</ref>}}

=== Qur'an 8:30 ===

{{quote ||
'''Yusuf Ali:''' Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah. <ref name="iw8-30">{{quran-ia|8|33}}</ref>}}

{{quote ||
'''Pickthal:''' And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah (also) plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters. <ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Arberry:''' And when the unbelievers were devising against thee, to confine thee, or slay thee, or to expel thee, and were devising, and God was devising; and God is the best of devisers. <ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Shakir:''' And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners. <ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Sarwar:''' The unbelievers planned to imprison, murder or expel you (Muhammad) from your city. They make evil plans but God too plans and God's plans are the best. <ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Khalifa:''' The disbelievers plot and scheme to neutralize you, or kill you, or banish you. However, they plot and scheme, but so does GOD. GOD is the best schemer. <ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Hilali/Khan:''' And (remember) when the disbelievers plotted against you (O Muhammad SAW) to imprison you, or to kill you, or to get you out (from your home, i.e. Makkah); they were plotting and Allah too was planning, and Allah is the Best of the planners. <ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''H/K/Saheeh:''' And [remember, O Muúammad], when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you [from Makkah]. But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners. <ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Malik:''' Remember, how the unbelievers plotted against you. They sought to take you captive or kill you or exile you. They planned - and Allah also planned - Allah is the best planner of all. <ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''QXP:''' Remember (O Messenger), when the rejecters were making schemes to arrest you, slay you, or expel you. That was their plan, but Allah's Law of Requital is designed to work in a way unfailing. Allah is the Best of planners. <ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Maulana Ali:''' And when those who disbelieved devised plans against thee that they might confine thee or slay thee or drive thee away -- and they devised plans and Allah, too, had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners. <ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Free Minds:''' And the rejecters plot against you to arrest you, or to kill you, or to expel you. And they plot, and God plots, and God is the best of plotters. <ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Qaribullah:''' And when the unbelievers plotted against you (Prophet Muhammad). They sought to either take you captive or have you killed, or expelled. They plotted but Allah (in reply) also plotted. Allah is the Best in plotting. <ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''George Sale:''' And call to mind when the unbelievers plotted against thee, that they might either detain thee in bonds, or put thee to death, or expel thee the city; and they plotted against thee: But God laid a plot against them; and God is the best layer of plots. <ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''JM Rodwell:''' And call to mind when the unbelievers plotted against thee, to detain thee prisoner, or to kill thee, or to banish thee: They plotted-but God plotted: and of plotters is God the best! <ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Asad:''' AND [remember, O Prophet,] how those who were bent on denying the truth were scheming against thee, in order to restrain thee [from preaching], or to slay thee, or to drive thee away: thus have they [always] schemed:'° but God brought their scheming to nought-for God is above all schemers. <ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Palmer:''' And when those who misbelieve were crafty with thee to detain thee a prisoner, or kill thee, or drive thee forth; they were crafty, but God was crafty too, for God is best of crafty ones! <ref>[http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated&layout=auto&searchstring=008:030 Quran Browser - Quran 8:30]</ref> }}

=== Qur'an 10:21 ===

{{quote ||
'''Yusuf Ali:''' When We make mankind taste of some mercy after adversity hath touched them, behold! they take to plotting against Our Signs! Say: "Swifter to plan is Allah!" Verily, Our messengers record all the plots that ye make! <ref name="iw10-21">{{quran-ia|10|21}}</ref>}}

{{quote ||
'''Pickthal:''' And when We cause mankind to taste of mercy after some adversity which had afflicted them, behold! they have some plot against Our revelations. Say: Allah is more swift in plotting. Lo! Our messengers write down that which ye plot. <ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Arberry:''' When We let the people taste mercy after hardship has visited them, lo, they have a device concerning Our signs. Say: 'God is swifter at devising; surely Our messengers are writing down what you are devising. <ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Shakir:''' And when We make people taste of mercy after an affliction touches them, lo ! they devise plans against Our communication. Say: Allah is quicker to plan; surely Our messengers write down what you plan. <ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Sarwar:''' When people are granted mercy after having suffered hardship, they begin to plot against Our revelations. Say, "God is the most swift in His plans." Our angelic messengers record all that you plot. <ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Khalifa:''' When we bestow mercy upon the people, after adversity had afflicted them, they immediately scheme against our revelations! Say, "GOD's scheming is far more effective. For our messengers are recording everything you scheme." <ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Hilali/Khan:''' And when We let mankind taste of mercy after some adversity has afflicted them, behold! They take to plotting against Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.)! Say: "Allah is more Swift in planning!" Certainly, Our Messengers (angels) record all of that which you plot. <ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''H/K/Saheeh:''' And when We give the people a taste of mercy after adversity has touched them, at once they conspire against Our verses. Say, "Allah is swifter in strategy." Indeed, Our messengers record that which you conspire. <ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Malik:''' When We show mercy to mankind after some calamity had afflicted them, they begin to plot against Our revelations! Tell them: "Allah is more swift in plotting than you; indeed Our angels are recording all the plots you make." <ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''QXP:''' When We cause people to taste of Mercy after they have suffered a hardship, they start scheming to defy Our Commands. Say, "Allah is more Swift in planning. Our couriers write down what you plot." <ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Maulana Ali:''' And when We make people taste of mercy after an affliction touches, lo! they devise plans against Our messages. Say: Allah is quicker to plan. Surely Our messengers write down what you plan. <ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Free Minds:''' And if We let the people taste a mercy after some harm had afflicted them, they take to scheming against Our revelations! Say: "God is faster in scheming;" Our messengers record what you scheme. <ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Qaribullah:''' When We let people taste (Our) mercy after they had been afflicted by hardship, they devise against Our verses. Say: 'Allah is more swift in devising. ' Indeed, Our Messengers (the angels) are writing down whatever you devise. <ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''George Sale:''' And when We caused the men of Mecca to taste mercy, after an affliction which had befallen them, behold, they devised a stratagem against our signs. Say unto them, God is more swift in executing a stratagem, than ye. Verily our messengers write down that which ye deceitfully devise. <ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''JM Rodwell:''' And when after a trouble which you befallen them, we caused this people to taste of mercy, lo! a plot on their part against our signs! SAY: Swifter to plot is God! Verily, our messengers note down your plottings. <ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Asad:''' And [thus it is:] whenever We let [such] people taste [some of Our] grace after hardship has visited them-lo! they forthwith turn to devising false arguments against Our messages." Say: "God is swifter [than you] in His deep devising!" Behold, Our [heavenly] messengers are recording all that you may devise! <ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Palmer:''' When we have let men taste of mercy after distress which has touched them, lo! they use a stratagem against our signs! Say, 'God is quicker at stratagem.' Verily, our messengers write down what stratagem ye use. <ref>[http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated&layout=auto&searchstring=010:021 Quran Browser - Quran 10:21]</ref> }}

=== Qur'an 13:42 ===

{{quote ||
'''Yusuf Ali:''' Those before them did (also) devise plots; but in all things the master-planning is Allah's He knoweth the doings of every soul: and soon will the Unbelievers know who gets home in the end. <ref name="iw13-42">{{quran-ia|13|42}}</ref>}}

{{quote ||
'''Pickthal:''' Those who were before them plotted; but all plotting is Allah's. He knoweth that which each soul earneth. The disbelievers will come to know for whom will be the sequel of the (heavenly) Home. <ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Arberry:''' Those that were before them devised; but God's is the devising altogether. He knows what every soul earns. The unbelievers shall assuredly know whose will be the Ultimate Abode. <ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Shakir:''' And those before them did indeed make plans, but all planning is Allah's; He knows what every soul earns, and the unbelievers shall come to know for whom is the (better) issue of the abode. <ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Sarwar:''' Certain people who lived before plotted evil plans but God is the Master of all plans. He knows what every soul does. The unbelievers will soon learn who will achieve the blissful end. <ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Khalifa:''' Others before them have schemed, but to GOD belongs the ultimate scheming. He knows what everyone is doing. The disbelievers will find out who the ultimate winners are. <ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Hilali/Khan:''' And verily, those before them did devise plots, but all planning is Allahs. He knows what every person earns, and the disbelievers will know who gets the good end (final destination). <ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''H/K/Saheeh:''' And those before them had plotted, but to Allah belongs the plan entirely. He knows what every soul earns, and the disbelievers will know for whom is the final home. <ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''QXP:''' Now those who lived before these people, also devised schemes, but the most Subtle devising is that of Allah. He knows what every "Self" earns. The rejecters will soon find out as to whom belongs the Future. <ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Maulana Ali:''' And those before them planned indeed, but all planning is Allah’s. He knows what every soul earns. And the disbelievers will come to know for whom is the (good) end of the Abode. <ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Free Minds:''' And those before them have schemed, but to God is all scheming. He knows what every soul earns and the rejecters will come to know to whom is the better abode. <ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Qaribullah:''' Those who have gone before them devised, but to Allah is the devising altogether. He knows what every soul earns. The unbelievers shall know without doubt for whom is the Ultimate Abode. <ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''George Sale:''' Their predecessores formerly devised subtle plots against their prophets; but God is master of every subtle device. He knoweth that which every soul deserveth: And the infidels shall surely know, whose will be the reward of paradise. <ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''JM Rodwell:''' Those who lived before them made plots: but all plotting is controlled by God: He knoweth the works of every one, and the infidels shall know whose will be the recompense of the abode. <ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Asad:''' Now those who lived before these [sinners] did, too, devise many a blasphemy"-but the most subtle devising is that of God, who knows what each human being deserves :12 and the deniers of the truth will [in time] come to know to whom the future belongs." <ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Palmer:''' And those who were before them were crafty too; but God's is the craft altogether! He knows what every soul earns; and the misbelievers shall know whose is the recompense of the abode. <ref>[http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated&layout=auto&searchstring=013:042 Quran Browser - Quran 13:42]</ref> }}

==== Analysis ====

The translations of Yusuf Ali, Sarwar Hilali/Khan and Malik have furthered their dishonesty in the translation of makir by translating the same word differently in two places (in the same verse). When referring to the unbelievers, they state that they 'plotted and planned' but that Allah only 'planned'. This implies that Allah's intentions and planning were completely benign, but that the unbelievers' intentions were not - as 'plotter' itself has negative connotations. This translation completely disregards the meaning and connotations of makir, but if they insisted in using the word 'plan', then they should have rendered both usages the same, or they should have used 'devious/deceitful planner' instead of just 'planner' in order to convey the intended meaning.

Arberry and Qaribullah use the word 'devised', Rodwell uses the word 'plotted', Sale uses 'devised a strategem' and Shakir, HK/Saheeh, QXP and Maulana Ali all use the word 'planned' in reference to both the unbelievers and Allah. As stated before, using any of these words (all synonyms for 'planner') is dishonest because the translators have completely disregarded the context and meaning of the word in question. Just because makir can mean scheme and scheme can mean plan/plot/devise, does not mean that you can translate makir as plan/plot/devise. This is a non-sequitor.

In this way, Pickthal, Khalifa, Free Minds and Shakir are the best translations here, because they have correctly translated makir - which can mean scheme. However they have left it a little open ended in that they have not conveyed the full meaning of the word. In English, although the word 'scheme' usually has a negative connotation, this is not always the case. Makir is always used in a negative context. Palmer's use of 'crafty' in this verse, although accurate, presents the same problem.

== Apologetics ==

===Jamal Badawi ===

Although Dr. Badawi admits that makir is a negative word with negative connotations, he seeks to justify its usage in the Qur'an when referring to Allah, by claiming that it has a different meaning than that which we mere mortals have assigned it when referring to each other. This is from a Live Q & A session held on the 16th of April, 2007, on the ''readingislam.com'' website. The question and answer are as follows:

{{quote |1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20070624054812/http://www.readingislam.com/livedialogue/Browse.asp?hGuestID=8P66WT|2=2011-04-10}} Ask About Islam Q&A Session] Dr. Jamal Badawi, Reading Islam, April 16, 2007|2='''Question:''' The quran refers sometimes to the MAKR of Allah. Hos ''[sic]'' is possible to desscribe ''[sic]'' God as MAKIR? Wa yamkuruna wa yamkuru Allah

'''Answer:''' The terms that we use in our human language do not necessarily have the identical meaning when referring to Allah. For example, terms such as “hear” and “see” have totally different meaning when we speak about Allah, as He does not have eyes or ears like ours (Qur’an 42/11).

Likewise, the Arabic term “makr” for humans refers to conspiracy; for Allah, however, in reverence to Him, to ''[sic]'' means “plan”. Therefore, it means then that they conspire, but Allah has his own plans to thwart their evil schemes.}}
Dr. Badawi's evidence for his claim is from Quran 42:11:
{{Quote|{{Quran|42|11}}| The Originator of the heavens and the earth; He made mates for you from among yourselves, and mates of the cattle too, multiplying you thereby; nothing like a likeness of Him; and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. }}

When reading this verse, it is immediately apparent that this verse is talking about physical characteristics; the Qur'an is saying that although we have been created in pairs (male and female), Allah is not like this as he has no partner. Reviewing the relevant portion of Kathir's Tafsir confirms this:

{{quote |1=[http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2109&Itemid=98 Allah is the Protector, Ruler and Creator (42:11)] Tafsir 'ibn Kathir|2= [فَاطِرَ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ]

(The Creator of the heavens and the earth.) means, the Maker of them both and everything in between.

[جَعَلَ لَكُمْ مِّنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ أَزْوَاجًا]

(He has made for you mates from yourselves,) means, of your own kind. As a blessing and a favor from Him, He has made your kind male and female.

[وَمِنَ الاٌّنْعَـمِ أَزْوجاً]

(and for the cattle (also) mates.) means, and He has created for you eight pairs of cattle.

[يَذْرَؤُكُمْ فِيهِ]

(By this means He creates you.) means, in this manner He creates you, male and female, generation after generation of men and cattle.

[لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَىْءٌ]

(There is nothing like Him,) means, there is nothing like the Creator of these pairs, for He is the Unique, the Self-Sufficient Master, '''Who has no peer or equal.'''}}

Therefore Qur'an 42:11 is saying that Allah has no likeness to that which he has created on this Earth because Allah created everything in pairs. Since Allah has no equal, he has no partner. This is why among his creation he 'has no likeness'. Stating that "see" and "hear" have different meanings when referring to Allah, is, again referring to physical characteristics (the 5 senses in this case) and bears no relevance to the meaning of words.

It is therefore in error for Dr. Badawi to submit this verse as evidence that words have different meanings when referring to Allah, because it is clearly talking about physical creation and not the meanings of words as they should be defined when Allah uses them to describe himself.

Even though we see that Dr. Badawi has no legitimate basis for his claim, his claim can be proven wrong based on the following lines of enquiry:

1. How many words have different meanings when referring to Allah? We've already seen that Dr. Bardawi has taken a word with a negative meaning and turned it into a positive, claiming 'reverence'. Does this mean that all negatively slanted words that Allah uses about himself must be turned into a positive, even if that means completely redefining the word in question? Isn't this a case of ''Special pleading''?<ref name="special">Special pleading is a form of spurious argumentation where a position in a dispute introduces favorable details or excludes unfavorable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations themselves. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption. For more information about this logical fallacy, see the associated articles on [http://www.fallacyfiles.org/specplea.html The Fallacy Files], [http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html The Nizkor Project] and the [https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Special_pleading.html Princeton University] websites.</ref>

2. Who decides what words have a different meaning when referring to Allah? This is just a way to hide and excuse the negative attributes of Allah by way of misdirecting those who are not as knowledgeable about Islam, the Qur'an and the Arabic language.

3. The Qur'an tells us: {{Quote|{{Quran|16|103}}| And certainly We know that they say: Only a mortal teaches him. The tongue of him whom they reproach is barbarous, '''and this is clear Arabic tongue.''' }}

Since the Qur'an says it is in clear Arabic, then this implies that the meaning of its words are as we understand them, and should not be applied in a different way to Allah. If ''makir'' has a different meaning when Allah uses it to refer to himself, then Qur'an 16:103 is obviously wrong. Is the Qur'an wrong here?

4. Dr. Bardawi claimed that makir has a different meaning when referring to Allah - that the common Arabic meaning is not correct. However the Qur'an states: {{Quote|{{Quran|3|7}}| He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. }}

The Qur'an says that some people seek to mislead by giving their own interpretation to portions. Is not Dr. Bardawi doing the same? If the "true" [when referring to Allah] meaning is unknown to most, what evidence does Dr. Bardawi provide in support of his unorthodox "truth"?

===Islam Q&A===

Islam Q&A says that "plotting/deceiving" may be used to describe Allah, but only in a positive way:

{{Quote|1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/39803/|2=2011-04-10}} Can Allaah be described as plotting etc?] Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 39803|2='''Question:''' Can Allaah be described as plotting, deceiving and betraying as in the verses (interpretation of the meaning):
“they were plotting and Allaah too was plotting”
[al-Anfaal 8:30]
“Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allaah, but it is He Who deceives them”
[al-Nisa’ 4:142]?. 

'''Answer:''' Praise be to Allaah.

The attributes of Allaah are all attributes of perfection, pointing to the best and most perfect of meanings. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“and for Allaah is the highest description. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise”

[al-Nahl 16:60]

“His is the highest description (i.e. none has the right to be worshipped but He, and there is nothing comparable unto Him) in the heavens and in the earth. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise”

[al-Room 30:27]

Al-Sa’di said in his Tafseer (commentary) – p. 718, 1065:

The highest description means the most perfect attributes.

Attributes are of three types:

1 – '''Attributes of perfection – in which there is no shortcoming whatsoever. These attributes apply to Allaah in absolute terms and are not limited or restricted in any way.''' Examples of that include His knowledge, power, hearing, seeing, mercy, etc.

2 – '''Attributes which imply imperfection and shortcomings. These can never be ascribed to Allaah, such''' as sleeping, being unable, '''doing wrong or oppressing, betraying''', etc.

3 – Attributes which may be perfect or imperfect, depending on the context. These cannot be ascribed to Allaah in absolute terms, and they cannot be denied in the case of Allaah in absolute terms. '''If the context implies perfection then they can be ascribed to Allaah; if it implies imperfection then they cannot be ascribed to Allaah. Examples include: plotting, deceiving and mocking.'''

'''Plotting against, betraying and mocking the enemy are attributes of perfection, because that is indicative of complete knowledge, power and might, and so on.'''

'''But plotting against the sincere believers is an attribute of imperfection.'''

Hence these characteristics are not ascribed to Allaah in absolute terms, rather they are mentioned in such a context as to indicate that these are attributes of perfection.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

'''“Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allaah, but it is He Who deceives them”
[al-Nisa’ 4:142]'''

This is deceiving the hypocrites.

And He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And (remember) when the disbelievers plotted against you (O Muhammad) to imprison you, or to kill you, or to get you out (from your home, i.e. Makkah); they were plotting and Allaah too was plotting; and Allaah is the Best of those who plot”

[al-Anfaal 8:30]

This is a plot against the enemies of Allaah who were plotting against the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Allaah says of the hypocrites (interpretation of the meaning):

“And when they meet those who believe, they say: ‘We believe,’ but when they are alone with their Shayaateen (devils — polytheists, hypocrites), they say: ‘Truly, we are with you; verily, we were but mocking.’

Allaah mocks at them and gives them increase in their wrong-doing to wander blindly”

[al-Baqarah 2:14-15]

This is mocking the hypocrites.

'''These attributes are to be regarded as indicating perfection in this context. Hence we say that Allaah mocks the hypocrites and deceives them, and that He plots against His enemies, and so on. But it is not permissible to describe Allaah as mocking or deceiving in absolute terms, because that does not indicate perfection.'''

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked: Can Allaah be described as plotting and named as such?

He replied:

Allaah cannot be described as plotting except in a limited sense; He cannot be described as such in absolute terms. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Did they then feel secure against the Plan of Allaah? None feels secure from the Plan of Allaah except the people who are the losers”

[al-A’raaf 7:99]

This verse indicate that Allaah has a plan or plot, which was to confound them without them realizing it. This is akin to the hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari: “War is deceit.”

'''If it is asked: How can Allaah be described as plotting when this seems to be something blameworthy?'''

'''The answer is that plotting in the right circumstances may be something praiseworthy that points to the strength of the plotter, and that he is superior to his enemy. Hence Allaah cannot be described as plotting in absolute terms, and we cannot say “Allaah is a Plotter.” Rather this attribute is mentioned in a context where it is positive, such as the verses (interpretation of the meaning):'''

'''“they were plotting and Allaah too was plotting”'''

'''[al-Anfaal 8:30]'''

'''“So they plotted a plot, and We planned a plan, while they perceived not”'''

'''[al-Naml 27:50]'''

And we cannot say in absolute terms that this cannot be ascribed to Allaah, rather in contexts where it is something positive it may be ascribed to Him, and in contexts where it is not something positive, it should not be ascribed to Him. So Allaah should not be called by a name which refers to this, so we cannot say that one of the names of Allaah is “the Plotter”. Plotting is one of His actions, because it has to do with the Will of Allaah.

Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, 1/170.

He was also asked: Can Allaah be described as betraying, or as deceiving, as in the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allaah, but it is He Who deceives them”
[al-Nisa’ 4:142]?

He replied:

'''With regard to betrayal, this is something that can never be ascribed to Allaah, because it is something shameful in all circumstances, and it is plotting at a time of trust, which is blameworthy.''' Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“But if they intend to betray you (O Muhammad), they indeed betrayed Allaah before. So He gave (you) power over them. And Allaah is All-Knower, All-Wise”

[al-Anfaal 8:71]

And He did not say: So He betrayed them.

With regard to deceiving, it is like plotting. It may be ascribed to Allaah when it is something positive, but it cannot be ascribed to Him in absolute terms. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allaah, but it is He Who deceives them”
[al-Nisa’ 4:142]

Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, 1/171

And Allaah knows best.}}

As with Jamal Badawi's apologetics, this is again a case of ''Special pleading'' <ref name="special"/>. This is adding meaning to the text which is not there, but comes only from a certain set of beliefs that Islam Q&A hold: namely:

# that Allah is God
# that Allah is perfect
# that 'perfection' is synonymous with 'good'
# that 'perfection' is synonymous with 'truthful'
# that Allah never lies or deceives

However when we look at the verses in question, the same word is applied to the unbelievers and also Allah. So you must also accept that since Allah is perfect, the meaning of the word changes depending on who it's referring to. There is absolutely no evidence that this is the case. Nowhere does the Qur'an implicitly state or even imply that words mean different things when referring to Allah, nor are there any ahadith to this effect. This is a clear cut case of special pleading, invented by Muslims to excuse the fact that the exact words of their god state that he is the best deceiver.

If one who claims to be perfect, displays an imperfect trait (deception, plotting etc..) then we know two things:

# They are a liar
# They are imperfect

Allah has told us in the Qur'an that he is the best deceiver - we have his own admission that he is imperfect and a liar.

=== Harun Yahya ===

Harun Yahya includes ''Al-Makir'' in his listing of Allah's 99 names:

{{ quote |[http://www.harunyahya.com/books/faith/names/names04.php#16 Names of Allah/ No. 16 (Al-Makir)] Harun Yayha| '''AL-MAKIR'''
'''The Planner'''

:'''When those unbelievers were plotting against you to imprison you or to kill or expel you: they were plotting and Allah was plotting, but Allah is the Best of Planners . (Surat al-Anfal, 8:30)'''

Those who plotted against the just religion throughout history strove to distance people from it for their own selfish desires (e.g., greed for power, personal interests, and so on). In the Hereafter, they will be told: “'''No, it was your scheming night and day when you commanded us to reject Allah and assign equals to Him'''.” (Surah Saba', 34:33) Yet there is a very important point that we need to remember here:

:'''Those before them plotted, but all planning belongs to Allah. He knows what each self earns, and the unbelievers soon will know who has the Ultimate Abode. (Surat ar-Ra‘d, 13:42)'''

As is related in the verse above, “all planning belongs to Allah.” Thus, against all of the unbelievers' plots, Allah devises the best plan. Allah calls attention to the deadlock facing unbelievers:

:'''They concocted their plots, but their plots were with Allah, even if they were such as to make the mountains vanish. (Surah Ibrahim, 14:46)'''

As this verse relates, Allah protects all believers from these plots. This is very easy for Allah, Who turns all plots against His Messengers and believers into failures and makes unbelievers suffer the ensuing dire consequences, for “… '''Allah is swifter at planning'''...” (Surah Yunus, 10:21)

No doubt, Allah creates every incident with a purpose and for the ultimate good. He uses the unbelievers' plots against believers to test them. He then extends His help to those servants who can discern the good and beauties in the events He creates, and turns all of these to their benefit.}}

Like Dr. Badawi's apologetics regarding Makir, Harun Yahya attempts to spin the meaning of the word when referring to Allah. Rather disturbingly, the first verse quoted above (Qur'an 8:30) has actually been quoted incorrectly by Yahya on this portion of his website. The translation given, referring to people as plotters, but Allah as a planner, does not actualy exist. This is not an error or oversight by Yahya, because we find elsewhere on his website<ref>[http://www.harunyahya.com/books/faith/school/school2.php The School of Yusuf - Harun Yahya]</ref><ref>[http://www.harunyahya.com/ysf03.php The Prophet Yusuf - Harun Yahya]</ref> that the verse has been quoted correctly; referring to both as 'plotters'. Again in his quote of Qur'an 13:42, Yahya has misquoted the verse - labelling the unbelievers as "plotters" but Allah as a "planner".

These misquotes have been deliberately presented on this page because Harun Yahya is attributing the name ''Al Makir'' directly to Allah, but claiming it simply means "The planner". In order to spin makir into having a positive connotation, translating the same word differently in Qur'an 8:30 and 13:42 was necessary in order to portray Allah as being righteous, and the non believers (referred to in the verses) as devious. If they had been presented correctly - in that 'plotter' is attributed to Allah as well as the unbelievers, then it implies that Allah is also plotting the same type of activities that the unbelievers were [allegedly] plotting. This would serve to cast Allah in a bad light, as well as Muslims - since they are the ones who carry out his wishes (as relayed through Muhammad).

=== Allah Only Deceives Enemies ===

While claims from Muslims such as 'you're taking it out of context' are usually not legitimate, on the face of this apologetic claim it appears to have merit. Given the context of the verses provided in the above article, it is clear that they discuss Allah deceiving his (perceived) enemies only. However, what the verses also contain is a definitive statement from Allah - ''Allah is the best deceiver''. It does not state "Allah is better at deceiving than his enemies" Therefore, in these verses, we have the (supposedly) omniscient (all-knowing) being Allah, telling us outright that he is the best deceiver. Being all-knowing, he would be aware of anyone higher at deception than he is.

If someone who is all-knowing tells you he is the best deceiver, and you accept this (as Muslims) how can you say that you trust him not to deceive you as well? After all, since he is the self-admitted 'best' at deception, if he chose to deceive you, it would be highly unlikely that you would be able to detect such a deception if you are using solely his words as a guide to your life. Who's to say he is being truthful about anything else in the Qur'an? Even if he says he is being truthful to you, you already know that you cannot trust him because he has already admitted to being the 'best deceiver' - it could be another deception.

Furthermore, there are verses in the Qur'an that show us that Allah did not only confine his deception to his enemies, as in the above quoted verses.

==== Allah Deceives Muslims ====

{{quote | {{cite quran|8|43|end=44|style=ref}} | When Allah showed them to you in your dream as few; and if He had shown them to you as many you would certainly have become weak-hearted and you would have disputed about the matter, but Allah saved (you); surely He is the Knower of what is in the breasts.

And when He showed them to you, when you met, as few in your eyes and He made you to appear little in their eyes, in order that Allah might bring about a matter which was to be done, and to Allah are all affairs returned.}}
In the above verses, we can see that Allah admits to deceiving Muhammad himself, in a dream, by portraying the opposing forces as less than there actually were, in order to trick him into false confidence because he did not want the Muslims to become intimidated (and then back off from fighting). Here is Kathir's tafsir regarding this:

{{quote |1=[http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=8&tid=20236 Some Details of the Battle of Badr (8:43)] Tafsir 'ibn Kathir|2= '''[إِذْ يُرِيكَهُمُ اللَّهُ فِى مَنَامِكَ قَلِيلاً وَلَوْ أَرَاكَهُمْ كَثِيراً لَّفَشِلْتُمْ وَلَتَنَـزَعْتُمْ فِى الاٌّمْرِ وَلَـكِنَّ اللَّهَ سَلَّمَ إِنَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِذَاتِ الصُّدُورِ - وَإِذْ يُرِيكُمُوهُمْ إِذِ الْتَقَيْتُمْ فِى أَعْيُنِكُمْ قَلِيلاً وَيُقَلِّلُكُمْ فِى أَعْيُنِهِمْ لِيَقْضِىَ اللَّهُ أَمْراً كَانَ مَفْعُولاً وَإِلَى اللَّهِ تُرْجَعُ الأُمُورُ ]

(43. (And remember) when Allah showed them to you as few in your dream; if He had shown them to you as many, you would surely have been discouraged''', and you would surely have disputed in making a decision. But Allah saved (you). Certainly, He is the All-Knower of that is in the breasts.) (44. And (remember) when you met, '''He showed them to you as few in your eyes and He made you appear as few in their eyes, so that Allah might accomplish a matter already ordained''', and to Allah return all matters (for decision).)

Mujahid said, "In a dream, Allah showed the Prophet the enemy as few. The Prophet conveyed this news to his Companions and their resolve strengthened.'' Similar was said by Ibn Ishaq and several others. Allah said,

[وَلَوْ أَرَاكَهُمْ كَثِيراً لَّفَشِلْتُمْ]

(If He had shown them to you as many, you would surely, have been discouraged,) you would have cowardly abstained from meeting them and fell in dispute among yourselves,

[وَلَـكِنَّ اللَّهَ سَلَّمَ]

(But Allah saved), from all this, when He made you see them as few,

[إِنَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِذَاتِ الصُّدُورِ]

(Certainly, He is the All-Knower of that is in the breasts.) [8:43].

Allah knows what the heart and the inner-self conceal,

[يَعْلَمُ خَآئِنَةَ الاٌّعْيُنِ وَمَا تُخْفِى الصُّدُورُ ]

(Allah knows the fraud of the eyes, and all that the breasts conceal) [40:19].

Allah's statement,

[وَإِذْ يُرِيكُمُوهُمْ إِذِ الْتَقَيْتُمْ فِى أَعْيُنِكُمْ قَلِيلاً]

(And (remember) when you met, '''He showed them to you as few in your eyes) demonstrates Allah's compassion towards the believers. Allah made them see few disbelievers in their eyes, so that they would be encouraged and feel eager to meet them'''. Abu Ishaq As-Subai`i said, that Abu `Ubaydah said that `Abdullah bin Mas`ud said, "They were made to seem few in our eyes during Badr, so that I said to a man who was next to me, `Do you think they are seventy' He said, `Rather, they are a hundred.' However, when we captured one of them, we asked him and he said, `We were a thousand.''' Ibn Abi Hatim and Ibn Jarir recorded it. Allah said next,

[وَيُقَلِّلُكُمْ فِى أَعْيُنِهِمْ]

(and He made you appear as few in their eyes,) Allah said,

[وَإِذْ يُرِيكُمُوهُمْ إِذِ الْتَقَيْتُمْ]

(And (remember) when you met. He showed them to you...), He encouraged each of the two groups against the other, according to `Ikrimah, as recorded by Ibn Abi Hatim. }}
Kathir claims it was 'compassion' on the part of Allah to show a 'few' to Muhammad when there were many more than that, but this does not negate the fact that Allah deceived the Muslims in this matter - it was deception plain and simple. If we say to you that you get 3 years in jail in return for your sworn testimony, but we know (and conceal) the fact that you will actually get 6 years, this is not compassion, it is deception. In the same way we can say that Allah has deliberately deceived the Muslims in these verses in order to get them to do what he wants (ie. [[The Meaning of Qatal|fight]]). This example alone negates the apologetic claim that "Allah only deceives his enemies" as we can see that Allah deceived Muhammad - uswa hasana - so it is not unlikely that Allah will (and has) deceived other Muslims before and after this event.

==== Allah Created Christianity Through Deception====

According to Islam, [[Jesus]] is not [[God]], and he was ''not'' crucified, yet an entire religion sprung from Jesus' death on the cross and subsequent resurrection. This is the central focus of Christianity. Allah however, makes it clear in the Qur'an that Jesus was not crucified (died) and he is not God's son, meaning that Christian's are in error to follow these beliefs. But why do Christians think he was crucified? Because Allah admits that he made it appear so:
{{quote | {{cite quran|4|157|end=158|style=ref}}| And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, '''but it appeared to them so (like Isa)''' and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise. }}
So we see that Allah admits to making it appear (to the people) that Jesus was crucified on the cross (and died), and that Allah then raised Jesus to himself (ascended him to heaven). Therefore Allah admits to deceiving the people. For the next 600 years, Allah sat back and watched all these people converting to, and following Christianity; a religion that was started by his deception, but he did not bother to lift a finger to correct anything until 600 years later, when he sent Muhammad with the Quran - to sort out the mess that he himself (Allah) had created.

Let's look at it from another point of view; Allah sent Jesus to 'fix' the errors that had crept into Judaism, but then undoes any corrections that were made from the intervention (and Jesus' message) by making it appear (in the end) that Jesus was crucified and then raised from the dead. This negates the entire purpose of sending Jesus. This leaves the people with not only one alternative to Allah's 'true' religion, but two; Judaism or Christianity which entails (among other things) following the message of Jesus, which Allah himself had corrupted by making it appear that he had risen from the dead. So for 600 years, Allah's pure religion was not to be found on this Earth and now (thanks to Allah's deception) had two competing faiths to deceive the people and tempt them away from the 'straight path'. This makes no sense.

==== Conclusion ====

In conclusion we can see that this objection (of context) is irrelevant because the statement in the verses is definitive (not dependent on context) and from the Qur'an itself we see that Allah has no problem deceiving:
* "Enemies of Islam"
* Muslims
* Innocent people - who lived in the 600 years that it took Allah to send the Qur'an

==Responses to Apologetics==

#'''''"According to the Quranic Arabic Corpus website, 'Makr' means 'Planner'"''''' The Quranic Arabic Corpus website also claimed at one time that ''Idriboohunna'' in Qur'an 4:34 meant "[[Beat_your_Wives_or_Separate_from_Them_-_Quran_4-34|separate from them]]" (i.e. the husbands from their wives) rather than to "beat them" for the fear of disobedience. However, ''Idriboohunna'' (أضربوهن) means "beat them" (for female plural). ''Adriboo Anhunna'' (اضربوا عنهن) is the phrase that means abandon or leave them. They are completely different phrases with completely different meanings, and the attempts to mix up the two is only a modern development used by a few western Muslim apologists. To their credit, the website has acknowledged this error by now having corrected this blatant mistranslation, but they have also shown themselves to be an unreliable source concerning the Arabic language. In any case, Edward William Lane's ''Arabic-English Lexicon'' (the most revered and scholarly dictionary of the Arabic language), ''Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic'', and the ''Arabic Lexicon'' all disagree with the Quranic Arabic Corpus website's rendering of the word. And every single one of these sources are more reliable than that website. In addition to these reliable sources, there are Dr. Jamal Badawi and Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajjid who are both native Arabic speakers and respected individuals (in relation to issues concerning Islam). Although they may make excuses for the use of that particular word, they do both actually admit that makr means deceiver.

{{Core POTB}}

== See Also ==
{{Hub4|Lying|Lying}}
{{Hub4|Allah|Allah}}
{{Hub4|Mistranslated Verses|Mistranslated Verses}}

{{Translation-links-english|[[Allah le meilleur trompeur|French]]}}

== External Links ==

* [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/allah_best_deceiver.htm|2=2011-11-24}} Allah the greatest deceiver of them all]
* [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/cornelius/makr.html|2=2011-11-24}} Allah: Truthful or Deceiver?]
* [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/deceptive_god.htm|2=2011-11-24}} Deceptive God, Incompetent Messiah]

'''Resources'''

* [http://www.ghazali.org/books/wehr-cowan-76.pdf Hans-Wehr Dictionary - mkr (page 917)] ''(40MB PDF file)''
* [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume7/00000256.pdf|2=2011-11-24}} Lane's Lexicon - mkr - Volume 7, Page 256]
* [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.studyquran.co.uk/14_MIIM.htm|2=2011-11-24}} Lane's Lexicon online summary - Mim-Kaf-Ra]

== References ==
{{Reflist|30em}}

[[Category:Qur'an]]
[[Category:Sani]]

Allah le meilleur trompeur

2015-03-14T20:58:08Z

Heitri2:

[[File:Quran 3-54.png|290px|right|thumb]]
Le Coran déclare souvent ouvertement que [[Allah]] est le meilleur trompeur, la racine du mot présent dans les versets que nous allons analyser est "Makr" qui signifie en clair "tromperie".

==Introduction==
Récapitulons, le Coran décrit très franchement Allah comme le "meilleur dupeur", la racine de mot "Makr" utilisé dans ces versets est bien "tromperie/duperie". Les traductions littérales présentes ici proviennent d'un [[websites|site web musulman]]. Il en conviendra de noter que la majorité du Coran a d'ailleurs très faussement traduit ce terme comme nous allons le voir dans les versets suivants.

Même si il y a beaucoup de versets utilisant le même mot (Makir) en référence à Allah<ref>[http://www.irreduciblefifth.force9.co.uk/burhan/b.x.311.htm Quran root browser - م ك ر - m-k-r]</ref>, cette article se concentrera exclusivement sur les versets où c'est Allah lui-même qui se décrit comme le meilleur dupeur.

==Définitions==

{{Quote|[http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/tromper/79915 Définitions : tromper] Dictionnaire de français Larousse|'''<big>tromper</big>'''

'''''verbe transitif''

(ancien français ''se tromper de'', se moquer de, de trompe)

*Abuser de la confiance de quelqu'un, se jouer de lui en usant de mensonges, de dissimulation
*Être infidèle à quelqu'un, avoir une aventure amoureuse, sexuelle avec un(e) autre
*Induire quelqu'un en erreur, lui faire prendre quelque chose, quelqu'un pour ce qu'ils ne sont pas
*Faire faire à quelqu'un une erreur de jugement, d'appréciation
*Échapper à quelqu'un, à sa vigilance, son attention, les déjouer par ruse, feinte
*Décevoir, ne pas répondre à un sentiment, un espoir
*Détourner, par une diversion, l'attention d'un désir, un état pénible}}

== Coran ==

Dans les versets du Coran qui vont suivre, c'est Allah lui-même qui se révèle être le meilleur trompeur.

=== Coran 3:54 ===

{{quote |{{Qtt|3|54}}|
'''Arabe:''' ومكروا ومكر الله والله خير الماكرين

'''Translittération:''' Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena

'''Littéral:''' Ils ont voulu tromper/tricher contre Dieu, alors que Dieu préparait aussi sa tromperie/tricherie contre eux et assurément Dieu est le meilleur des trompeurs/tricheurs.<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://iknowledge.islamicnature.com/quran/surah/3/lang/englishliteral/|2=2011-08-25}} 3. Ali-Imran - The Family Of 'Imran (سورة آل عمران) - Revealed in Madinah (English: Literal)] - IslamicNature, accessed August 25, 2011</ref>}}

=== Coran 7:99 ===

{{quote |{{Qtt|7|99}}|
'''Arabe:''' افامنوا مكر الله فلايامن مكر الله الا القوم الخاسرون

'''Translittération:''' Afaaminoo makra Allahi fala ya/manu makra Allahi illa alqawmu alkhasiroona

'''Littéral:''' Sont-ils à l'abri du complot/(de la) tromperie de Dieu ? Alors que personne ne devrait se sentir à l'abri du complot/(de la) tromperie de Dieu excepté les malheureux.<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://iknowledge.islamicnature.com/quran/surah/7/lang/englishliteral/|2=2011-08-25}} 7. Al-A'raf - The Heights (سورة الأعراف) - Revealed in Makkah (English: Literal)] - IslamicNature, accessed August 25, 2011</ref>}}

=== Coran 8:30 ===

{{quote |{{Qtt|8|30}}|
'''Arabe:''' واذ يمكر بك الذين كفروا ليثبتوك او يقتلوك او يخرجوك ويمكرون ويمكر الله والله خير الماكرين

'''Translittération:''' Wa-ith yamkuru bika allatheena kafaroo liyuthbitooka aw yaqtulooka aw yukhrijooka wayamkuroona wayamkuru Allahu waAllahu khayru almakireena

'''Littéral:''' Et rappelle-toi le moment où les mécréants complotaient/rusaient contre toi/ essayer de te duper pour t'emprisonner, ou te tuer, ou t'expulser de leur terre, certes ils ont comploté/rusé/essayer de te tromper, mais Dieu est le meilleur des comploteurs/ruseurs/dupeurs.<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://iknowledge.islamicnature.com/quran/surah/8/lang/englishliteral/|2=2011-08-25}} 8. Al-Anfal - Spoils Of War (سورة الأنفال) - Revealed in Madinah (English: Literal)] - IslamicNature, accessed August 25, 2011</ref>}}

=== Coran 10:21 ===

{{quote |{{Qtt|10|21}}|
'''Arabe:''' واذا اذقنا الناس رحمة من بعد ضراء مستهم اذا لهم مكر في اياتنا قل الله اسرع مكرا ان رسلنا يكتبون ماتمكرون

'''Translittération:''' Wa-itha athaqna alnnasa rahmatan min baAAdi darraa massat-hum itha lahum makrun fee ayatina quli Allahu asraAAu makran inna rusulana yaktuboona ma tamkuroona

'''Littéral:''' Et si Nous faisons goûter aux gens/éprouvons les gens de Notre miséricorde après qu'une calamité/un malheur les ait touché, voila qu'ils manigancent/rusent/complotent contre nos versets. Dis : "Dieu est plus habile dans la ruse/l'intrigue, et Nos messagers écrivent ce que vous avez accompli comme tricherie/tromperie/intrigue."<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://iknowledge.islamicnature.com/quran/surah/10/lang/englishliteral/|2=2011-08-25}} 10. Yunus - Jonah (سورة يونس) - Revealed in Makkah (English: Literal)] - IslamicNature, accessed August 25, 2011</ref>}}

=== Coran 13:42 ===

{{quote |{{Qtt|13|42}}|
'''Arabe:''' وقد مكر الذين من قبلهم فلله المكر جميعا يعلم ماتكسب كل نفس وسيعلم الكفار لمن عقبى الدار

'''Translittération:''' Waqad makara allatheena min qablihim falillahi almakru jameeAAan yaAAlamu ma taksibu kullu nafsin wasayaAAlamu alkuffaru liman AAuqba alddari

'''Littéral (traductions française):''' Rappelle-toi les anciens peuples qui avaient triché/essayaient de tromper/conspiré (contre Nos messagers), alors que c'est à Allah qu'appartient toute la tricherie/la tromperie/le complot. Il sait que ce chaque âme gagne/acquiert, et les mécréants sauront à qui est réservé la demeure finale/la bonne fin.<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://iknowledge.islamicnature.com/quran/surah/13/lang/englishliteral/|2=2011-08-25}} 13. Ar-Ra'd - The Thunder (سورة الرعد) - Revealed in Makkah (English: Literal)] - IslamicNature, accessed August 25, 2011</ref>}}

Le mot makir est toujours utilisé péjorativement mais jamais cadré dans un contexte positif. En effet il est souvent utilisé pour décrire quelqu'un de sournois et de malhonnête. C'est à cause de la façon dont un "makir" vous dupe - il planifie un dessein pour vous égarer grâce à la fourberie - qu'il est totalement inapproprié pour Allah de se décrire tel quel, spécialement lorsque l'on sait que les deux des 99 attributs divins qu'on lui donne sont الحق : Al-Haqq (La Vérité) et الوكيل : Al-Wakīl (Le Tuteur : Celui qui garantit, administre, se charge et résolut toute chose et toute affaire, à qui on peut se confier, qui offre un soutien inébranlable).

==Définition littérale de Makr==
Cette section cite de nombreuses sources académiques anglaises pour étudier en profondeur le mot ''Makr''

===Lane's Lexicon===

Le Edward William Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon est le dictionnaire anglais le plus révéré et le plus fiable de la langue arabe. Du "Lane's Lexicon" (la version originale complète peut être lue [[:File:Makr Lane-Lexicon-page Vol 7-pg. 256.jpg|ici]]):

{{Quote|1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.studyquran.co.uk/14_MIIM.htm|2=2013-07-21}} Lane's Lexicon (anglais): "Miim"]|2='''Miim-Kaf-Ra''' Traduction = le fait de pratiquer la tromperie, la fraude ou le contournement, commettre une évasion ou une fuite, de comploter, de conspirer, d'exercer dans le domaine de l'art ou dans l'artisanat ou dans la ruse, être dans la politique, savoir planifier un stratagème (original : to practice deceit or guile or circumvention, practice evasion or elusion, to plot, to excercise art or craft or cunning, act with policy, practice strategem).

''makara'' vb. (1){{br}}
perf. act. 3:54, 3:54, 7:123, 13:42, 14:46, 16:26, 16:45, 27:50, 40:45, 71:22{{br}}
impf. act. 6:123, 6:123, 6:124, 8:30, 8:30, 8:30, 10:21, 12:102, 16:127, 27:70, 35:10{{br}}
n.vb. 7:99, 7:99, 7:123, 10:21, 10:21, 12:31, 13:33, 13:42, 14:46, 14:46, 14:46, 27:50, 27:50, 27:51, 34:33, 35:10, 35:43, 35:43, 71:22{{br}}
pcple. act. 3:54, 8:30

[[:File:Makr Lane-Lexicon-page Vol 7-pg. 256.jpg|LL, V7, p: 256]]}}

===Hans Wehr===

Le dictionnaire Hans Wehr est considéré comme le dictionnaire académique de norme de la langue arabe pour les chercheurs et étudiants anglophones, il confirme aussi ces définitions du mot :

{{Quote|[[:File:Hans Wehr dictionary - page 917.jpg|Hans Wehr dictionary (anglais), page 917]]|'''1ère forme makara u (Makr)''' le fait de tromper, illusionner, tricher, duper, faire tromper, trahir. III : essayer de tromper

'''2ème forme makr''' rouerie, finesse, sournoiserie, ruse, double jeu, tromperie, astuce

'''3ème forme makra''' ruse, artifice, stratagème, escroquer, astuce, esquive

'''4ème forme makkār et 5ème forme makǔr''' ruse, sournois, astucieux, rusé, habile, malin, sournois; fourbe, personne rusé, imposteur, escroc

'''6ème forme mākir pluriel et 7ème forme makara''' sournois, ruse, rusé}}

===Arabic Lexicon===

{{Quote|1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://lexicons.sakhr.com/openme.aspx?fileurl=/html/1088382.html|2=2013-07-21}} Arabic Lexicon on ''Al-Makr'']|2=[[File:Arabic-lexicon for Al-Makr.gif]]}}

{{Quote|1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://lexicons.sakhr.com/openme.aspx?fileurl=/html/3076064.html|2=2013-07-21}} Arabic Lexicon on ''Makir'']|2=[[File:Arabic-lexicon for Makir.gif]]}}

===Divers autres dictionnaires===

Les significations du terme arabe d'autres dictionnaires et sources anglaises ont été compilé ci-dessous avec leurs traductions françaises :
{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Dictionary
! width = 100px | Word
! Meaning
|-
| [http://translate.google.com/ Google Translate]
| ماكر (Makir)
| ''sly, cunning, deceitful [http://translate.google.com/ en voir plus ici]
(t : sournois, ruseur, trompeur)''
|-
| [http://translation.babylon.com/Arabic Babylon.com]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''n. calculating, cunning, astuteness, craftiness, foxiness, craft, slyness, archness, deceit, double-dealing, artifice, deception, wiliness, artfulness, furtiveness, ploy, trick, guile, ruse, roguery
(t : le calcul, la ruse, l'astuce, l'ingéniosité, la finesse, l'artisanat, le fait d'être rusé, le malice, la tromperie, le double-jeu, l'artifice, la duperie, le fait d'être astucieux, l'adresse, le fait d'être furtif, un stratagème, le passe-passe; un tour (=jouer un tour de magie, un tour à quelqu'un), la fourberie, le subterfuge, la friponnerie) ''
|-
| [http://www.Stars21.com TranStar]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''wiliness'' (means: "Full of wiles") [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wiliness Merriam-Webster]
(t : signification: = "rempli de ruses")
|-
| [http://qamoose.arabeyes.org/dict_main.cgi ArabEyes.com]
| المكر (Al-Makr)
| ''deception
(t : tromperie)''
|-
| [http://www.ebnmasr.net/wtranslate/ Ibn Masr]
| المكر (Al-Makr)
| ''deception
(t = tromperie)''
|-
| [http://www.systranet.com/?text=%D9%85%D9%83%D8%B1&lp=ar_en SYSTRAnet.com]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''deception
(t : tromperie)''
|-
| [http://free.translated.net/ Translated.net]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''deception
(t : tromperie)''
|-
| [http://freetranslation.paralink.com/ ImTranslator.com]
| المكر (Al-Makr)
| ''deviousness
(t : tortuosité)''
|-
| [http://freetranslation.paralink.com/ ImTranslator.com]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''wiliness
(t = astucieux)''
|-
| [http://online.ectaco.co.uk/main.jsp?do=e-services-dictionaries-word_translate1&direction=1&status=translate&lang1=23&lang2=ar&refid=-1&source=deception Ectaco]
| مكر (Makr)
| ''deception
(t = tromperie)''
|}

== Traductions erronées ==

Ce qui va suivre sont les traductions anglaises (retranscrites en français) des versets sélectionnés. Comme mentionné au-dessus, makir n'est jamais utilisé dans un sens positif - il désigne une personne rusée, sournoise qui utilise la tromperie pour parvenir à ses fins.

On peut voir que la plupart des traducteurs ont donné au mot "makir" (dont l'une de ces significations est complot) le sens de "plan infaillible, stratagème sûr". Alors que cela crée une abstraction avec le contexte et la connotation du mot présent dans les versets que nous allons vérifier. Makir ne veut tout simplement pas dire "planificateur". Le seul et unique fait que makir peut être traduit par complot/intrigue/programme sournois (scheme en anglais) et que cela peut renvoyer (scheme) au sens de plan/complot ne peut pas permettre le fait de traduire "makir" en tant que planificateur/comploteur. C'est de la malhonnêteté de la part des traducteurs.

Il faut se rendre compte que ce mot est utilisé en même temps pour décrire Allah et les mécréants. Dans la plupart des cas les traducteurs rendent le mot accordé à Allah plus bénigne pour éviter de révéler, conformément au Coran, ce que Allah dit vraiment sur lui même.

=== Coran 3:54 ===

{{quote ||
'''Yusuf Ali:''' Et les mécréants ont comploté et planifié, mais Allah a planifié aussi, et le meilleur des planificateurs est assurément Allah.<ref name="iw3-54">{{quran-ia|3|54}} (anglais)</ref>}}

{{quote ||
'''Pickthal:''' Et ils (les mécréants) ont comploté, et Allah a aussi comploté (contre eux) : et Allah est le meilleur des comploteurs.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Arberry:''' Et ils ont manigancé, et Dieu aussi a manigancé, et Dieu est le meilleur d'entre ceux qui manigancent. <ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Shakir:''' Et ils ont planifié et Allah aussi a planifié et Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Sarwar:''' Les mécréants ont comploté et Dieu a planifié, mais Dieu est un bien meilleur planificateur.<ref name="iw3-54"/> }}

{{quote ||
'''Khalifa:''' Ils complotèrent et intriguèrent, mais DIEU fit de même, et DIEU est le meilleur Stratège.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Hilali/Khan:''' Et ils (les mécréants) ont comploté (pour tuer 'Īsā (Jésus)), mais Allah a planifié aussi. Et Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''H/K/Saheeh:''' Et les mécréants ont planifié, mais Allah a planifié. Assurément Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Malik:''' Les mécréants parmi les enfants d’Israël ont mené un complot contre Jésus alors qu'Allah avait établit un plan pour l'élever vers Lui, vraiment Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''QXP:''' Les opposants ont construit quelques plans, mais Allah en fit autant. Et Allah est le Vertueux des planificateurs. (Ils ont comploté pour arrêter et crucifier Jésus mais Allah l'a protégé).<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Maulana Ali:''' Et (les Juifs) ont planifié et Allah aussi a planifié. Certainement Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Free Minds:''' Ils ont mis au point certaines machinations et Dieu en fit de même, mais Dieu est le meilleur comploteur.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Qaribullah:''' Ils ont manigancé, et Allah a manigancé. Et Allah est le Meilleur des Comploteurs.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''George Sale:''' Et les Juifs ont manigancé un stratagème contre lui; mais Dieu de son côté a aussi manigancé un stratagème contre eux; et Dieu est le meilleur stratège.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''JM Rodwell:''' Et les juifs ont comploté, et Dieu a comploté: Mais de ces deux-là c'est bien sûr Dieu le meilleur comploteur.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Asad:''' Et les mécréants ont conspirer [contre jésus]; mais Dieu a anéanti complètement leur intrigue; Dieu est vraiment transcendant sur les intrigues.<ref name="iw3-54"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Palmer:''' Et ils (les Juifs) étaient rusés, mais Dieu aussi était rusé, et Dieu est le meilleur de ces ruseurs.<ref>[http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated&layout=auto&searchstring=003:054 Quran Browser - Quran 3:54 (anglais)]</ref>}}

=== Coran 7:99 ===

{{quote ||
'''Yusuf Ali:''' Est-ce qu'ils se sentent à l'abri contre le plan d'Allah ? -Alors que personne ne devrait se sentir à l'abri du Plan d'Allah excpeté ceux damnés à péri. <ref name="iw7-99"> {{quran-ia|7|99}} (anglais)</ref>}}

{{quote ||
'''Pickthal:''' Est-ce qu'ils se sentent en sécurité contre l'intrigue d'Allah ? Personne ne devrait se sentir protégé contre le plan d'Allah, périront ceux qui le seront.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Arberry:''' Est-ce qu'ils se sentent en tranquillité contre le stratagème de Dieu ? Personne ne se sent serein contre le stratagème de Dieu mise à part les gens perdus.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Shakir:''' Quoi ! Est-ce qu'ils se sentent en sécurité contre le plan d'Allah ? Personne ne devrait se sentir en sécurité contre le plan d'Allah excepté les gens destinés à périr.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Sarwar:''' Est-ce qu'ils croient qu'ils se suffisent à eux-même contre la rétribution de Dieu ? Alors qu'aucun homme ne devrait avoir une telle attitude excepté ceux qui sont perdus.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Khalifa:''' Ont-ils pris les plans de Dieu pour acquis ? Personne ne peut prendre les plans de Dieu pour acquis excepté les perdants.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Hilali/Khan:''' Se sentent-ils en sûreté contre le Plan d'Allah. Personne ne devrait se sentir en sûreté contre le Plan d'Allah excepté les gens qui sont perdus.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''H/K/Saheeh:''' Sont-ils dans l'assurance contre le plan d'Allah ? Mais personne ne devrait sous-estimer le plan d'Allah excepté les gens perdus.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Malik:''' Est-ce que ces gens sont calmes à la vue du plan d'Allah ? En vérité, seuls ceux qui sont condamnés à la destruction se sentent calmes face au plan d'Allah.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''QXP:''' Est-ce qu'ils ne ressentent aucune peur de l'avenue de la Loi Divine ? Est-ce qu'ils pensent que la Loi Divine leur garantit une sécurité inconditionnelle? Seuls les perdants n'ont pas peur de l'avenue de la Loi de la Rétribution d'Allah.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Maulana Ali:''' Sont-ils protégés du plan d'Allah? Mais personne ne devrait se sentir protégé du plan d'Allah excepté les gens qui périssent.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Free Minds:''' Est-ce qu'ils sont rassurés de l'intrigue de Dieu? Personne ne devrait être rassuré du complot de Dieu excepté les personnes qui sont perdus.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Qaribullah:''' (en réponse à votre manigance) est-ce qu'ils se sentent à l'abri de la manigance de Dieu? Personne ne devrait se sentir à l'abri de la manigance de Dieu excepté les nations perdues.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''George Sale:''' Se sont-ils sentis intouchables face au stratagème de Dieu? Mais personne ne devrait se sentir intouchable au stratagème de Dieu excepté les qui gens qui périssent.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''JM Rodwell:''' Est-ce qu'ils se sont sentis en sécurité contre le tribunal rigoureux de Dieu? Mais personne ne devrait se sentir en sécurité contre le tribunal rigoureux de Dieu, sauvez ceux qui périssent.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Asad:''' Peuvent-ils se sentir calme face à la grande manigance de Dieu? Alors que personne ne devrait se sentir calme face à la grand manigance de Dieu, sauvez les personnes qui sont déjà perdus.<ref name="iw7-99"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Palmer:''' Se sentent-ils à l'abri de la ruse de Dieu? Personne ne devrait se sentir à l'abri contre la ruse de Dieu excepté les gens qui vont perdre.<ref>[http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated&layout=auto&searchstring=007:099 Quran Browser - Quran 7:99 (anglais)]</ref>}}

=== Coran 8:30 ===

{{quote ||
'''Yusuf Ali:''' Rappelle-toi comment les Non-croyants ont comploté contre toi, pour te mettre sous caution, ou de te tuer, ou de t'expulser (de chez toi). Ils ont comploté et planifié, et Allah a planifié aussi; mais le meilleur des planificateurs est Allah<ref name="iw8-30">{{quran-ia|8|33}} (anglais)</ref>}}

{{quote ||
'''Pickthal:''' Et quand ceux qui ont mécru ont comploté contre toi (Ô Mohammed) pour te blesser mortellement, ou te tuer ou t'expulser; ils ont comploté, mais Allah (aussi) a comploté; et Allah est le meilleur des comploteurs.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Arberry:''' Et quand les non-croyants étaient en train de manigancé contre toi, pour t'emprisonner, ou t'abattre, ou t'expulser, ils étaient en train de manigancé, et Dieu était en train de manigancé; et Dieu est le meilleur de ceux qui manigancent.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Shakir:''' Et quand ceux qui ont mécru manigançaient des intrigues contre toi pour te saisir ou te tuer ou te chasser de leur terre; et ils manigançaient des plans et Allah aussi a conçu un plan; et Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Sarwar:''' Les incroyants planifièrent de t'emprisonner, te tuer ou de t'expulser (Mohammed) de la ville. Ils organisèrent des plans mais Allah aussi planifia et les plans de Dieu sont les meilleurs.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Khalifa:''' Les mécréants complotent et intriguent pour te neutraliser, ou te tuer, ou te bannir. Cependant, ils complotent et intriguent, mais DIEU fait de même. DIEU est le meilleur stratège.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Hilali/Khan:''' Et (rappelle-toi) quand les incroyants complotaient contre toi (Ô Mohammed PBSL) pour t'emprisonner, ou te tuer, ou t'éjecter (de chez toi, La Mecque); ils étaient en train de comploté et Allah aussi était en train de comploté, et Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''H/K/Saheeh:''' Et [rappelle-toi, Ô Mohammed], quand ceux qui ont mécru ont comploté contre toi pour porter atteinte à ta liberté, ou te tuer ou t'expulser [de La Mecque]. Mais ils ont planifié, et Allah a planifié. Et Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Malik:''' Rappelle-toi, comment les infidèles ont comploté contre toi. Ils ont cherché à te rendre captif ou te tuer ou t'exiler. Ils ont planifié et Allah a aussi planifié - Parmi tous les planificateurs, Allah est le meilleur de tous.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''QXP:''' Rappelle-toi (Ô Mohammed), quand les dénégateurs étaient en train de comploter pour t'arrêter, ou te tuer, ou t'expulser. C'était leur plan, mais la Loi de la Justice d'Allah est indéfectible. Allah est le Meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Maulana Ali:''' Et ceux qui ont mécru ont manigancé des intrigues contre toi afin de te capturer ou de de mettre fin à ta vie ou t'expulser loin de leur terre - et ils ont manigancé et Allah aussi, a mis au point un plan; et Allah est le meilleur des planificateurs.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Free Minds:''' Et les dénégateurs complotent contre toi pour t'arrêter, ou te tuer, ou t'expulser. Et ils complotent, et Dieu complote, et Dieu est le meilleur des comploteurs.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Qaribullah:''' Et quand les incroyants ont comploté contre toi (Prophète Mohammed). Ils ont cherché parmi leurs multiples manigances : à te capturer, te tuer, ou t'expulser. Ils ont comploté et Allah (pour leur rétribution) a aussi comploté. Allah est le meilleur dans le complot.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''George Sale:''' Et remémore-toi quand les infidèles ont comploté contre toi, pour te retenir prisonnier, ou te tuer, ou te bannir de la terre. Ils ont comploté-mais Dieu a comploté: et de tous les comploteurs Dieu en est le meilleur!<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''JM Rodwell:''' And remémore-toi quand les infidèles ont comploté contre toi, pour te retenir prisonnier, ou te tuer, ou te bannir de la terre. Ils ont comploté-mais Dieu a comploté: et de tous les comploteurs Dieu en est le meilleur!<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Asad:''' ET [rappelle-toi, Ô Prophète,] comment ceux qui étaient obstinés à renier la vérité étaient en train de conspirer contre toi, dans le but de te priver de ta liberté [pour précher], ou te tuer, ou t'expulser loin de leur terre: c'est ainsi qu'ils ont [toujours] conspirer:'° mais Dieu a complètement annihilé leur conspiration- Dieu est au dessus de toutes les conspirations.<ref name="iw8-30"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Palmer:''' Et quand ceux qui doutaient préparaient leurs ruses afin de t'emprisonner, ou de t'assassiner, ou de te renvoyer de leur terre; ils étaient rusés, mais Dieu est encore plus rusé, Dieu est au-dessus de tous ces ruseurs.<ref>[http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated&layout=auto&searchstring=008:030 Quran Browser - Quran 8:30 (anglais)]</ref> }}

=== Coran 10:21 ===

{{quote ||
'''Yusuf Ali:''' Et quand Nous faisons goûter aux gens une partie de notre Miséricorde après que l'adversité les ait touchés, et voici ! Ils s'adonnent à comploter contre Nos Signes! Dis: "Le plan d'Allah vous viendra soudainement" En vérité, Nos messagers enregistrent tous vos complots auxquels vous vous adonnés.<ref name="iw10-21">{{quran-ia|10|21}} (anglais)</ref>}}

{{quote ||
'''Pickthal:''' Et quand Nous faisons goûter aux hommes de notre miséricorde après que l'adversité les ait affligés, voici qu'ils organisent quelques complots contre Nos révélations. Dis : Allah est plus rapide dans sa planification. Prenez garde! Nos messagers mettent par écrit ce qu'ils complotent.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Arberry:''' Quand Nous laissons les gens goûter de nos miséricordes après qu'un temps dur les ait visités, et voila qu'ils ont fait une manigance contre nos signes. Dis : 'Dieu est plus rapide dans son dispositif; sûrement Nos messagers mettent par écrit ce que vous avez préparé comme dispositif.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Shakir:''' Et quand Nous faisons goûter aux gens la miséricorde après qu'une affliction les ait touchés, et voila qu'ils manigancent des plans contre Notre message. Dis: Allah est plus habile à faire des plans; certainement Nos messagers inscrivent ce que vous planifiez.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Sarwar:''' Quand les gens se voient octroyés de miséricorde après avoir souffert d'épreuve, ils commencent à comploter contre Nos révélations. Dis, "Dieu est plus rapide dans Ses plans." Nos messagers angéliques enregistrent tout ce que vous complotez.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Khalifa:''' Quand nous comblons les gens de miséricorde, après que de l’adversité les ait affligés, ils intriguent immédiatement contre nos révélations ! Dis : « Les intrigues de DIEU sont de loin plus efficaces. Car nos messagers enregistrent tout ce que vous intriguez. »<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Hilali/Khan:''' Et quand Nous accordons aux hommes de goûter de notre miséricorde après que certaines tribulations les ait affligés, par la suite! Ils s'engagent à comploter contre Nos Ayat (preuves, évidences, versets, leçons, signes, révélations, etc.)! Dis : "Allah est plus rapide en planification!" Sûrement, Nos Messagers (anges) enregistrent tout ce que vous complotez.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''H/K/Saheeh:''' Et quand nous offrons aux gens un don de notre miséricorde après que la difficulté les ait touchés, ainsi subséquemment,ils conspirent contre Nos versets. Dis, "Allah est prompt dans sa stratégie." Effectivement Nos messagers consignent ce que vous avez conspirer.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Malik:''' Et quand nous montrons notre miséricorde aux hommes après que certaines calamités les ait affligés, ils commencent à comploter contre Nos révélations! Informe-leur "Allah est plus agile dans la manigance que vous; en effet Nos anges enregistrent tous les complots que vous administrez.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''QXP:''' Et quand nous attribuons à un peuple notre Miséricorde après avoir endurés une dur période, ils commencent à comploter, à titre de défi, Nos Commandements. Dis, "Allah est plus prompt dans sa planification. Nos messagers mettent par écrit ce que vous complotez.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Maulana Ali:''' Et quand Nous répandons sur les gens notre miséricorde après que l'angoisse les ait touchés, regardez comment ils manigancent leurs plans contre Nos messagers. Dis: Allah est encore plus vif à planifier. En effet Nos messagers écrivent ce que dont quoi vous complotez.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Free Minds:''' Et quand nous prodiguons de notre grâce sur un peuple qui suit un préjudice les ayant atteint, ils se prennent dans la conspiration sournoise contre Nos révélations! Dis: "Dieu est plus rapide dans la conspiration;" Nos messagers consignent vos plans secrets.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Qaribullah:''' Quand nous laissons les gens goûter de (Notre) miséricorde après qu'ils ont été affligés par un moment angoissant, ils manigancent contre Nos versets. Dis: 'Allah est encore plus spontané dans sa manigance.' En effet, Nos Messagers (les anges) inscrivent tout ce que vous manigancez.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''George Sale:''' Et quand Nous procurons aux hommes de La Mecque de notre miséricorde, après qu'une affliction soit tombé sur eux, regardez-les, ils manigancent un stratagème contre nos signes. Annonce-leur, que Dieu est plus apte à exécuter son stratagème, que vous. En toute vérité nos messagers écrivent bien ce qu'ils manigancent contre leur propre gré.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''JM Rodwell:''' Et subséquemment après qu'un trouble se soit abattu sur un peuple, nous leur attribuons de notre clémence, et bien voila qu'après cela ils complotent sciemment contre nos signes pensant être caché de la vue de Dieu! DIS: Le plus impétueux des complots est bien celui d'Allah! En vérité, nos messagers notent bien ce que vous complotez.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Asad:''' Et [c'est ainsi que] quoique [de Nos] miséricordes nous laissons à [ce peuple], voici que de peu de temps après ils tournent le dos pour réfléchir sur des faux arguments allant à l'encontre de Nos messagers. "Dis "Dieu est rapide [et plus que vous] dans son imprévisible manigance!" Ne vous y détrompez-pas, nos messagers (célèstes) sont en train d'enregsitrer tout ce que pouvez manigancer.<ref name="iw10-21"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Palmer:''' Et quand, par miséricorde, nous laissons aux gens goûter de notre clémence après que la détresse les ait envahis, il n'en faut que très peu pour qu'ils se mettent à concevoir un stratagème contre nos signes! Dis, 'Dieu est plus brute dans son stratagème.' Cela est la vérité, nos messagers prennent notes des stratagèmes que vous utilisez.<ref>[http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated&layout=auto&searchstring=010:021 Quran Browser - Quran 10:21 (anglais)]</ref> }}

=== Coran 13:42 ===

{{quote ||
'''Yusuf Ali:''' Ceux d'avant eux ont aussi manigancé des complots; mais sur toutes choses Allah est maître de planification, il sait ce que chaque âme acquiert et bientôt les incroyants sauront qui aura la bonne fin.<ref name="iw13-42">{{quran-ia|13|42}} (anglais)</ref>}}

{{quote ||
'''Pickthal:''' Ceux qui ont vécu avant eux ont comploté; mais tous les complots reviennent à Allah. Il sait ce que chaque âme gagne. Les mécréants sauront bientôt à qui est destiné le demeure des bienheureux.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Arberry:''' Les peuples antérieurs ont manigancé; mais l'organisation universelle appartient à Dieu. Il sait ce que chaque âme sème. Les non-croyants sauront sûrement à qui est réservé la Demeure Finale.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Shakir:''' Et ceux qui les ont précédé ont effectivement fait des plans, mais la planification de toute chose appartient à Allah; il sait ce que chaque a acquis pour elle-même, et les non-croyants recevront bientôt la vérité au sujet de la récompense de la meilleur demeure.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Sarwar:''' D'aucuns des gens qui vivaient avant eux ont comploté des plans sataniques mais Dieu est le Maître de tous les plans. Il sait tout ce que les âmes font. Les infidèles apprendront bientôt qui accédera à la fin heureuse.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Khalifa:''' D’autres avant eux ont intrigué, mais à DIEU appartient l’intrigue ultime. Il sait ce que chacun fait. Les mécréants sauront qui sont les ultimes gagnants.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Hilali/Khan:''' Et en toute vérité, les peuples antérieurs à eux ont manigancé des complots, mais la planification de toute chose revient à Allah. Il sait ce que chaque personne fait de bien ou de mal, et les mécréants sauront plus tard qui héritera de la bonne fin (destination finale).<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''H/K/Saheeh:''' Et ceux qui vivaient avant eux ont comploté, mais à Allah appartient le plan complet. Il sait ce que chaque âme sème, et les mécréants sauront pour qui est la demeure finale.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''QXP:''' Maintenant ceux qui vivaient avant ce peuple, ont aussi manigancé des intrigues, mais la plus Subtile manigance est celle d'Allah. Il sait ce que chaque "Individu" a acquis. Les dénégateurs sauront bientôt à qui appartient le Futur.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Maulana Ali:''' Et ceux avant eux qui avaient planifié, alors que la planification de toute chose est à Allah. Il sait ce que chaque gagne pour son propre intérêt. Et les mécréants sauront à la fin pour qui est la bonne fin, la bonne demeure.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Free Minds:''' Et les peuples antérieurs à eux ont intrigué, mais à Dieu appartient toutes les intrigues. Il sait ce que chaque âme acquiert et les dénégateurs en viendront à connaître pour qui est la meilleur demeure.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Qaribullah:''' Ceux qui ont péri avant eux ont manigancé, alors qu'Allah a l'organisation universelle sur l'ensemble. Il sait ce que chaque âme commet. Les incroyants sauront sans doute pour qui est l'ultime demeure.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''George Sale:''' Et leurs prédécesseurs jadis ont manigancé sournoisement des complots contre nos prophètes; mais Dieu est la maître de toutes manigances subtiles. Il sait ce que chaque âme a laissé derrière elle. Et les infidèles vont dans peu de temps connaître la vérité, et à qui sera réservé la récompense du paradis.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''JM Rodwell:''' Ceux qui ont vécu avant eux ont fait des complots: mais la manigance est sous la garde de Dieu: He sait le labeur de chacun, et les infidèles sauront pour qui est la récompense de la demeure finale.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Asad:''' Maintenant ceux qui ont vécu avant eux étaient pécheurs aussi, et ils manigançaient beaucoup autour du blasphème"-mais la plus subtile manigance est celle de Dieu, qui est connaisseur de tout ce que les humains méritent en fonction de leurs action: 12 et les renieurs de la vérité [quand le temps viendra] viendront à connaître pour qui est destinée l'autre vie.<ref name="iw13-42"/>}}

{{quote ||
'''Palmer:''' Et ceux des prédécesseurs avant eux étaient rusés aussi; mais Dieu est la maître même de la ruse! Il sait ce que chaque âme avance pour elle-même; et ceux qui ont une maladie au cœur sauront pour qui est la récompense de la demeure finale.<ref>[http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall+yusufali+khan+shakir+sherali+khalifa+arberry+palmer+rodwell+sale+transliterated&layout=auto&searchstring=013:042 Quran Browser - Quran 13:42 (anglais)]</ref> }}

==== Analyse ====

Les traductions de Yusuf Ali, Sarwar Hilali/Khan et Malik ont favorisé leur malhonnêteté dans la traduction du mot "makir" en lui donnant des significations divergentes dans deux endroits différents (du même verset). Quand le mot relate le fait des non-croyants, il est formulé de cette façon : 'comploté et planifié' mais si ce même mot est en rapport direct avec Allah, seulement une des deux déclarations reste : celle de 'planifié'. Cela implique que les intentions et les planifications d'Allah sont bénignes mais ceux des incroyants cachent toujours une connotations péjoratives. Cette traduction casse complètement les bases de la définition et du sens du mot "makir", mais si ils insistent vraiment à utiliser la "traduction" en "plan" alors dans ce cas ils devraient concorder les deux mots dans la même seule et unique connotation, ou encore utiliser les termes 'sournois/trompeur/planificateur' en place et lieu de juste 'planificateur' afin de transmettre le sens voulu.

Arberry et Qaribullah utilise le mot "manigancé", Rodwell le mot "comploté", Sale donne 'manigancé un stratagème' et Shakir, HK/Saheeh, QXP et Maulana Ali utilisent tous le mot "planifié" en référence aux non-croyants mais aussi à Allah. Comme indiqué précédemment, utiliser n'importes lesquels de ces mots (proches de planificateur) est malhonnête parce que les traducteurs ont complètement éviter le contexte et le sens propre du mot en question. Juste le fait que "makir" qui peut être traduit par stratagème peut vouloir aussi dire plan/complot/manigance, ne peut absolument pas permettre de traduire "makir" comme plan/complot/manigance. Cela se nomme de la non sequitur :

De cette manière, Pickthal, Khalifa, Free Minds et Shakir sont les meilleurs traductions, parce qu'ils ont correctement traduit makir dans la version anglaise- qui peut vouloir dire intrigue/dispositif sournois (scheme en anglais). Néanmoins ils ont laissé un espace blanc dans leur texte et on peut voir qu'ils n'ont pas retranscris le plein sens du mot. En anglais, bien que le mot 'intrigue/dispositif sournois(scheme)' a souvent une connotation négative, il est vrai que ce n'est pas toujours le cas. En revanche "makir" est conséquemment utilisé dans un contexte négatif.
Palmer quand à lui rend la définition de "rusé", peut-être précise, mais toujours le même problème.

== Apologétiques ==

===Jamal Badawi ===

Même si le docteur Badawi admet que le mot "makir" a une connotation négative, il cherche à justifier son usage dans le Coran quand il est en référence à Allah, en clamant qu'en tant qu'il a tout autre sens que quand des des mortels en désignent d'autres. L'article suivant provient du Live Q & A d'une conférence tenue le 16 Avril, 2007, sur le site readingislam.com. La question et la réponses sont les suivantes:

{{quote |1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20070624054812/http://www.readingislam.com/livedialogue/Browse.asp?hGuestID=8P66WT|2=2011-04-10}} Ask About Islam Q&A Session] Dr. Jamal Badawi, Reading Islam (anglais), April 16, 2007|2='''Question:''' Le coran fait souvent référence au MAKR d'Allah. Comment est-ce possible de désigner Dieu comme MAKIR ? Wa yamkuruna wa yamkuru Allah.

'''Réponse:''' Le terme que nous utilisons dans notre langage humaine n'a pas la même signification que celui qu'on utilise pour désigner Allah. Par exemple, des termes comme "entendre" et "voir" ont une signification totalement différentes lorsqu'on l'on parle d'Allah, comme il l'a ni yeux ni oreilles comme nous. (Coran 42/11)

Également, le terme arabe 'makr" pour les humains connote la conspiration ; pour Allah, en révérence pour Lui cela signifie "plan".
En conclusion, cela veut dire que les hommes conspirent, mais qu'Allah a son propre plan pour contrecarrer leurs stratagèmes maléfiques.}}
Dr. Badawi s'appuie sur la sourate 42, verset 11 pour confirmer son dire :
{{Quote|{{Quran|42|11}}| Le Créateur des cieux et de la terre; ils vous a constitué des épouses issues de vous-même, et de même pour les bestiaux, pour que vous vous multipliez. Car rien ne Lui ressemble; et il est Celui qui Entend, il est le Clairvoyant. }}

Quand nous lisons ce verset, il est évident qu'il est en rapport direct avec les caractéristiques physiques; le Coran annonce que comme nous avons été crées par pairs (mâle et femelle), et qu'Allah n'a pas cette spécificité et qu'il n'a pas de partenaire alors rien ne lui ressemble. Vérifions avec une partie du tafsir d'ibn Kathir :

{{quote |1=[http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2109&Itemid=98 Allah is the Protector, Ruler and Creator (42:11)] Tafsir 'ibn Kathir (anglais)|2= [فَاطِرَ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ]

(Le Créateur des cieux et de la terre.) veut dire, le Fabricateur (littéralement : le Faiseur) des cieux et de la terre et de tout ce qu'il y a entre eux.

[جَعَلَ لَكُمْ مِّنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ أَزْوَاجًا]

(Il a fait pour vous des épouses issues de vous-mêmes) veut dire, de votre propre espèce/genre. Comme une bénédiction et une faveur venant de Lui, Il vous a partagé entre hommes et femmes.

[وَمِنَ الاٌّنْعَـمِ أَزْوجاً]

(et les bestiaux sont aussi par couples (littéralement : ont aussi leurs conjointes).) veut dire, et Il a crée pour vous une multitude (littéralement : huit) de couples d'animaux (différents).

[يَذْرَؤُكُمْ فِيهِ]

(Par cette manière Il vous a crées) veut dire, de cette façon Il vous a crée, hommes et femmes, génération après génération d'homme et d'animaux.

[لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَىْءٌ]

(Il n'y a rien qui soit comme Lui) veut dire, il n'y a rien (dans la création) qui soit comme le Créateur de ces couples, c'est ainsi qu'Il est Unique, qu'Il se suffit à Lui-même (littéralement : Auto-Suffisant), '''Qui n'a ni semblable ni égal.'''}}

Par conséquent le passage 42:11 du Coran déclare qu'Allah n'a pas de semblable parmi ce qu'il a crée sur cette Terre car Allah a crée toutes choses par couples. Dès lors qu'Allah n'a pas d'égal, il n'a pas de partenaire. Cela explique que parmi sa création 'il n'a pas de semblable'. Affirmer que "voir" et "entendre" ont des significations différentes quand ils concernant Allah est, encore une fois, en réalité une référence aux caractéristiques physiques (les 5 sens dans ce cas) et ne portent aucun intérêt sur la signification de ces mots.

C'est une erreur que le Dr. Badawi a faite en nous soumettant ces versets comme une évidence, que ces mots ont un sens différent quand ils font références à Allah étant donné que ces versets parlent clairement de la création physique et non sur la signification des mots comme ils devraient être définis quand Allah les utilise pour se décrire lui-même.

Même si nous voyons clairement que la déclaration de Badawi n'a aucunes base légitimes, celle-ci peut être éprouvée fausse :

1. Combien de mots ont de significations différentes quand ils sont en rapport avec Allah ? Nous avons déjà vu que Badawi a pris un mot avec un sens négatif et l'a tourné dans un sens positif, clamant qu'il signifiait 'révérence'. Cela veut dire que tous les mots négatifs décrivant Allah doivent être tournés dans un sens positif, même si on redéfini complètement le mot ? N'est-ce pas un cas de ''plaidoirie spéciale'' (''Special pleading'') <ref name="special">[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading Special pleading (logical fallacy)] - Wikipedia</ref>

2. Qui décide quel mot a une signification différente quand il se réfère à Allah ? C'est juste un moyen de cacher et de justifier les attributs négatifs d'Allah et par ce moyen d'égarer ceux qui n'ont pas une très grande connaissance sur l'Islam, le Coran et la langue arabe.

3. Le Coran nous dit: {{Quote|{{Quran|16|103}}| Et effectivement nous savons qu'ils disent : C'est seulement un mortel qui lui apprend. La langue de ceux qui le reprochent est vraiment incomplète, '''cette langue est de l'arabe très clair.''' }}

Si le Coran dit lui-même qu'il est d'un arabe clair, cela implique donc que la signification de ces mots sont comme on les comprend, et ne devraient pas être appliqué dans un cadre différent pour Allah. Si ''makir'' a un sens différent quand Allah l'utilise pour se référer à lui-même, alors cette partie du Coran (16:103) est absolument fausse. Est-ce que le Coran a tort ici ?

4. Dr.Badawi clame que "makir" a une définition différente quand il se réfère à Allah - donc le langage arabe courant n'est pas correct. D'ailleurs, le Coran déclare: {{Quote|{{Quran|3|7}}| Il est celui qui vous révélé le Livre, certains de ces versets sont clairs, ils sont la base du Livre, et d'autres sont allégoriques ; puis ceux qui ont de la perversité en eux abusent des parties allégoriques afin de détourner et chercher à imposer leur propre interprétation. Mais personne n'en a l'interprétation sauf Allah, et ceux qui sont enracinés dans la science répliquent: Nous croyons en ce Noble Coran, tout vient de notre Seigneur; et seuls les doués d'intelligence se rappellent. }}

Le Coran dit que certaines personnes essaient d'égarer en donnant leurs propres interprétations sur des passages du Coran. Dr.Badawi ne fait-il pas la même chose ? Si la "vérité" [quand elle se réfère à Allah] est inconnue de beaucoup, quel évidence a le Dr.Badawi pour nous la donner en support de sa "vérité" hétérodoxe ?

===Islam Q&A===

Islam Q&A déclare que les mots "comploter/tromper peuvent être présentes pour décrire Allah mais seulement dans un contexte positif :

{{Quote|1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/39803/|2=2011-04-10}} Est-ce qu'Allah peut être décrit comme un comploteur etc?] Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 39803|2='''Question:''' Est-ce qu'Allah peut être décrit comme un comploteur, un trompeur, un traître comme dans ses versets (traduction rapprochée):
“Ils ont comploté et Allah a comploté aussi”
[al-Anfaal 8:30]
“En vérité, les hypocrites ont cherché à tromper Allah, mais Il est Celui qui les trompe”
[al-Nisa’ 4:142]?. 

'''Réponse:''' Que la louange soit à Allah.

Les attributs d'Allah sont tous des attributs de perfection, le décrivant de la meilleure manière qu'il soit et avec une signification parfaite. Allah dit (traduction rapprochée):

“Et pour Allah est la meilleur description. et Il est le Tout-Puissant, le Très-Juste”

[al-Nahl 16:60]

“A Lui appartient la meilleur description (c'est à dire que personne n'a le droit d'être adoré excepté Lui, et il n'y a rien qui lui ressemble) dans les cieux et la terre. Et Il est le Tout-Puissant, le Très-Juste”

[al-Room 30:27]

Al-Sa'di a dit dans son Tafsir (en commentaire) - p. 718, 1065:

La meilleur description signifie les plus parfaits attributs.

Les attributs sont de trois types:

1 - '''Les attributs de perfection - dans lesquels il n'y a pas la moindre imperfection. Ces attributs s'appliquent à Allah dans le sens absolu et ne sont pas limités ou restreints d'aucune manière que ce soit.''' Par exemple, celles-ci peuvent contenir Sa connaissance, Son pouvoir, Son attention, Sa clairvoyance, Sa miséricorde, etc...

2 - '''Les attributs qui impliquent de l'imperfection ou des lacunes. Ceux-ci ne peuvent jamais s'attribuer à Allah, comme''' dormir, être incapable, '''commettre le mal ou oppresser, trahir''', etc.

3 - Les attributs qui peuvent être parfaits ou imparfaits, dépendamment du contexte. Ils ne peuvent pas être attribuer à Allah dans un sens absolu, et ils ne peuvent pas être rejeté dans la description d'Allah dans un sens absolu. '''Si le contexte fait ressortir de la perfection, cela est approprié pour Allah, dans le cas contraire, cela est inapproprié. Les exemples qui incluent : complotage, tromperie et moquerie.'''

'''Comploter contre, tricher ou se moquer de l'ennemi sont des attributs de perfection, car ils indiquent une connaissance entière, de même que du pouvoir et de la puissance, et ainsi de suite.'''

'''Mais comploter contre les croyants sincères est une marque d'imperfection.'''

Par conséquent ces caractéristiques ne sont pas attribuées à Allah dans un sens, plutôt ils sont mentionnés dans un tel contexte pour indiquer qu'ils sont des attributs de perfection.

Allah dit (traduction rapprochée):

'''“En vérité, les hypocrites ont cherché à tromper Allah, mais Il est Celui qui les a trompé”
[al-Nisa’ 4:142]'''

Il trompe ainsi les hypocrites.

Et Il dit (traduction rapprochée):

“Et (rappelle-toi) quand les mécréants ont comploté contre toi (Ô Mohammed) pour t'emprisonner, ou te tuer, ou te faire sortir (de chez toi, c'est à dire La Mecque); ils ont comploté mais Allah aussi a comploté, et Allah est le Meilleur d'entre ceux qui complotent”

[al-Anfaal 8:30]

C'est un complot contre les ennemis d'Allah qui eux aussi étaient en train de comploter contre le Messager d'Allah (que la paix et la bénédiction soient sur lui).

Allah dit sur les hypocrites (traduction rapprochée)

“Et quand ils ont rencontré ceux qui ont cru, ils ont dit ‘Nous croyons,’ mais quand ils sont seuls avec leurs djinns (démons - polythéistes, hypocrites), alors là ils disent: ‘Vraiment, nous sommes de tout cœur avec vous, en vérité, nous ne faisions que nous moquer.’

C'est Allah qui se moque d'eux et les laisse s'amplifier dans le mal aveuglément”

[al-Baqarah 2:14-15]

C'est de la moquerie contre les hypocrites.

'''Ces attributs doivent être perçus comme indicateurs de perfection dans ce contexte. Ce pourquoi nous disons qu'Allah se moque des hypocrites et les trompe, et qu'Il complote contre ses ennemis, et ainsi de suite. Mais il n'est pas admis de décrire Allah comme moqueur ou trompeur dans un terme général, parce que cela n'indique pas de perfection.'''

Cheikh Ibn 'Uthaymin (qu'Allah le préserve) a reçu une question: Est-ce qu'Allah peut être décrit comme comploteur et nommé dans ce terme?

Il a répondu:

Allaah cannot be described as plotting except in a limited sense; He cannot be described as such in absolute terms. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
Allah ne peut pas être réduit comme un comploteur excepté dans un contexte bien précis; Il ne peut pas être décrit ainsi dans un sens absolu. Allah dit (traduction rapprochée)

“Est-ce qu'il se sentent en sécurité contre le Plan d'Allah? Personne ne devrait se sentir à l'abri du Plan d'Allah à part les gens qui sont les perdus”

[al-A’raaf 7:99]

Le verset indique qu'Allah a un plan ou un complot, qui était de les rendre confus sans qu'ils ne le sachent. Cela s'apparente à un hadith rapporté par Bukhari: “La guerre c'est la tromperie.”

'''Si la question suivante se pose: Comment Allah peut être décrit comme un comploteur quand cela semble être quelque chose de condamnable?'''

'''La réponse est que la tromperie dans les bonnes circonstances peut être quelque chose de louable qui accentue la force du comploteur, et montre qu'il est supérieur à ses ennemis. Mais Allah ne peut être décrit comme comploteur dans un sens absolu, et l'on ne peut dire "Allah est un comploteur." Plutôt l'attribut est mentionné dans un contexte qui le rend positif, comme ces versets (traduction rapprochée):'''

'''“ils étaient dans leur complot mais Allah aussi comploté”'''

'''[al-Anfaal 8:30]'''

'''“ils ont donc comploté un complot, et Nous avons planifié un plan, qu'ils n'ont pas vu venir”'''

'''[al-Naml 27:50]'''

Et l'on ne peut pas dire dans un sens absolu que ces termes ne peuvent pas être en références à Allah, ils Lui sont seulement attribués quand le contexte le permet qu'il soit donc positif, et lors de contexte non positif, ces termes ne peuvent Le décrire. En conclusion Allah ne devrait pas être appelé par un mot qui peut faire ressortir un côté négatif, donc nous ne pouvons dire que l'un des noms d'Allah est "le Comploteur". Comploter est l'une de ses actions, mais cela appartient à la Volonté d'Allah.

Fatwa Cheikh Ibn 'Uthaymin, 1/170.

Il a été aussi demandé: Est-ce qu'Allah peut être décrit comme un tricheur, ou un trompeur, comme dans ces versets (traduction rapprochée):

“En vérité, les hypocrites ont cherché à tromper Allah, mais Il est Celui qui les a trompé”
[al-Nisa’ 4:142]?

Il a répondu

'''Concernant la trahison, c'est quelque chose qui ne pourrait jamais être affilé à Allah car ce terme est honteux dans toutes les conditions, et c'est une forme de comploterie dans une relation honnête, ce qui est condamnable.''' Allah dit (traduction rapprochée):

“Mais si ils ont essayé de te trahir (Ô Mohammed), ils avaient déjà essayé de trahir Allah avant. Il t'a donc donner pouvoir sur eux. Et Allah est l'Omniscient, le le Plus-Sage”

[al-Anfaal 8:71]

Alors qu'il n'est pas dit : Donc Il les a trahis.

Pour ce qui est de la tromperie, elle est comparable à la tromperie. Allah peut être défini de la sorte quand c'est quelque chose de positive, mais pas le défini dans un sens général. Allah dit (traduction rapprochée):

“En vérité, les hypocrites ont essayé de tromper Allah, mais Il est Celui qui les a trompés”
[al-Nisa’ 4:142]

Fatwa Cheikh Ibn 'Uthayminn, 1/171

Et Allah sait mieux.}}

Comme l'érudit Jamal Badawi, c'est encore un cas de ''plaidoirie spéciale'' (''Special pleading'') <ref name="special"/>. Il rajoute un sens au texte qui n'est pas là, dans le but de protéger volontairement un certain ensemble de croyances que IslamQ&A tient : dont :

# Allah est Dieu
# Allah est parfait
# que la 'perfection' est synonyme de 'bien'
# que 'perfection' est synonyme de 'vérité'
# qu'Allah ne ment et ne trompe jamais

Cependant quand nous regardons ces versets en question, le même mot est appliqué aux non-croyants et aussi à Allah. Donc vous devez accepter le fait que dès lors qu'Allah est parfait, la signification du mot change selon son sujet. Mais il n'y a aucunes évidences que ce soit le cas. En aucun cas le Coran indique implicitement ou même implique que les mots prennent d'autres sens quand ils se réfèrent à Allah, il n'existe aussi aucun hadith à cet effet. C'est un clair coups de "plaidoirie spéciale", inventé par les Musulmans pour excuser le fait que le mot exact que leur dieu déclare et qu'il est le meilleur trompeur.

Si n'importe quel personne se vante d'être parfait, mais dévoile un trait d'imperfection (tromperie, comploterie etc...) on sait déjà deux choses sur lui :
# c'est un menteur
# il n'est pas parfait

Allah nous avoue dans le Coran qu'il est le meilleur dupeur - nous avons sa propre admission qu'il est imparfait et menteur.

=== Harun Yahya ===

Harun Yahya inclut ''Al-Makir'' dans sa liste des 99 plus beaux noms d'Allah:

{{ quote |[http://www.harunyahya.com/books/faith/names/names04.php#16 Names of Allah/ No. 16 (Al-Makir)] Harun Yayha (anglais)| '''AL-MAKIR'''
'''Le planificateur'''

:'''Quand ceux des incroyants étaient en train de comploter pour t'emprisonner ou te tuer ou t'expulser: ils étaient en train de comploter et Allah était en train de comploter mais Allah est le Meilleur des Planificateurs. (Sourate al-Anfal, 8:30)'''

Ceux qui ont complotés contre la religion de la vérité pendant toute leur vie à essayer d'en éloigner les gens pour leurs propres désirs égoïstes (avidité pour leur pouvoir, intérêts personnels, et ainsi de suite). Dans l'au-delà, on leur dira: “'''Non, c'était de votre sournoise intrigue de nous commander de rejeter Dieu et de lui assigner des égales, vous y travailliez nuit et jour'''.” (Surah Saba', 34:33) Et là c'est un point très important que nous avons besoin de nous rappeler:

:'''Ceux avant eux ont comploté, mais toute la planification appartient à Allah. Il sait ce que châque acquiert, et les non-croyants suaront qui aura l'Ultime Demeure. (Sourate ar-Ra‘d, 13:42)'''

Comme relaté dans le verset au-dessus, “toute la planification appartient à Allah.” Finalement, contre tous les complots des incroyants', Allah a préparé le meilleur plan. Allah attire notre attention sur l'impasse dont se retrouvera les non-croyants:
:'''Ils ont concocté leurs complots, mais ces derniers étaient inscrit auprès d'Allah même si leurs complots étaient assez puissants pour faire écrouler les montagnes.'''(Sourate Ibrahim, 14:46)'''

Comme ce verset le relate, Allah protège tous les croyants de leurs complots. Cela est aisé pour Allah. Ceux qui dirigent leurs complots contre Ses Messagers et croyants tombent de haut et ils subiront les conséquences désastreuses qui en découlent, comme approuvé par le Coran “… '''Allah est plus rapide en planification'''...” (Sourate Yunus, 10:21)

Pas de doute, Allah a crée (dans le sens : a laissé surgir) tous les malheurs dans un but prédestiné et pour la bien ultime. Il laisse les incroyants' comploté contre les croyants pour les éprouver. A la suite de cela, Il étend son aide et son assistance sur ses serviteurs qui savent distinguer le bien de la tentation dans les événements qu'Il a crée, afin que tout cela se retourne à leur avantage.}}

Avec la même perspective que le docteur Badawi a interprété "makir", Harun Yahya a essayé de faire tourner le sens de ce mot quand le sujet est Allah. Plutôt inquiétant, le premer verset cité au dessus (Coran 8:30) a actuellement été incorrectement cité par Yahya sur son passage dans son site web. La traduction donnée, qui blâme le peuple transgresseur de comploteur, mais Allah de planificateur, n'existe encore pas. Ce n'est sûrement pas une erreur ou un oubli de Yahya, la cause étant qu'on peut trouver autre part sur site<ref>[http://www.harunyahya.com/books/faith/school/school2.php The School of Yusuf - Harun Yahya]</ref><ref>[http://www.harunyahya.com/ysf03.php The Prophet Yusuf - Harun Yahya]</ref> que le verset a été cité correctement;Allah et le peuple ont les deux l'étiquette de de "comploteur". Encore une fois dans sa citation du Coran 13:42, Yahya a mal cité le verset - étiquetant les incroyants de "comploteur" mais Allah de "planificateur".

Ces déformations ont été délibérément exposées sur cette page vu que Harun Yahya a volontairement attribué le nom ''Al Makir'' directement à Allah, mais clamant que ça voulait simplement dire "Le planificateur". Dans le but de tricher sur la connotation du mot afin qu'elle soit positive, traduire le même mot différemment dans les passages 8:30 et 13:42 du Coran étaient nécessaires pour peindre Allah comme une bonne personne, et les non croyants (comme mentionné dans les versets) comme des insidieux. Si ils avaient établi la vérité - le fait que 'comploteur' désigne aussi bien Allah que les incroyants, cela impliquerait alors que Allah complote dans le même type de légitimité et d'activité que les non-croyants. Par conséquent Allah serait présenté sous un mauvais point de vue, ainsi que les Musulmans - car ils sont ceux qui lui sont soumis (comme relayé par Mohammed).

=== Allah trompe seulement ses ennemis ===

Tandis que les réclamations des musulmans comme 'vous ne prenez pas en compte le contexte' sont couramment illégitimes, en se basant sur cette accusation apologétique, notre travail a du mérite. Compte tenu du contexte des versets fournies au-dessus, il est clair que ces apologétiques rétorquent qu'Allah trompe seulement ses ennemis. Au contraire, ce dont le verset nous informe est une déclaration qui ne peut être plus explicite - ''Allah est le meilleur trompeur''. Cette phrase ne suggère pas une autre déclaration de la sorte : 'Allah est meilleur en tromperie que ses ennemis". Ensuite, dans ces versets, nous avons la (supposé) omniscience (celui qui sait tout) d'Allah, qui nous dit d'emblée qu'il est le meilleur trompeur. Avec son attribut d'omniscience, il serait avertit de toute personne meilleur que lui en tromperie.

Si quelqu'un d'omniscient vous confie qu'il est le meilleur trompeur, et que vous acceptez ça (en tant que musulman) comment pouvez-vous lui annoncer que vous lui faites confiance et que vous êtes surs qu'il ne vous trompera pas? Après tout, si il s'auto-critique comme étant le "meilleur" à la tromperie, si il décide de vous tromper, il serait très peu probable que vous soyez en mesure de détecter sa tromperie si vous vous laisse guider par ses mots dans votre vie. Qui d'autre comme ange-gardien peut confirmer la véracité de ces dires dans le Coran? Dans le pire des cas si il vous disiez qu'il était honnête avec vous, vous sauriez déjà que vous devrez rester sceptique à le croire puisqu'il a déjà avoué être le "meilleur trompeur" - il pourrait se cacher une autre tromperie.

De plus, il y a des versets dans le Coran qui nous montrent qu'Allah ne s'engage pas dans la tromperie seulement contre ses ennemis, comme indiqué ci-dessus dans les versets.

==== Allah trompe aussi les Musulmans ====

{{quote | {{cite quran|8|43|end=44|style=ref}} | Quand Allah te les avait montrés peux nombreux; et Il a voulu te les montrer dans ce nombre sinon tu aurais certainement disputé sur ce sujet et ta poitrine se serait resserré, mais Allah t'as sauvé de tout cela; effectivement Il est le Connaisseur du contenu des poitrines.

Et quand Allah te les avait montrés, quand tu étais sur le front du combat, peux nombreux à tes yeux et Il a vous a fait apparaître aussi peu nombreux à leurs yeux, c'est ainsi qu'Allah a parfait un événement qui était déjà prédestiné, et à Allah retourne toutes les affaires .}}

Dans les versets ci-dessus, on peut percevoir qu'Allah affirme d'avoir trompé Mohammed lui-même, dans un rêve, en illusionnant les forces ennemis moines nombreuses qu'ils ne l'étaient, afin de l'intriguer lui, Mohamed ainsi que ses disciples car il ne voulait pzd que les Musulmans soient intimidés (et désertent le combat). Voici par exemple le tafsir d'Ibn Kathir à ce sujet:

{{quote |1=[http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=8&tid=20236 Some Details of the Battle of Badr (Quelques détails de la bataille de Badr) (8:43)] Tafsir 'ibn Kathir (anglais)|2=[إِذْ يُرِيكَهُمُ اللَّهُ فِى مَنَامِكَ قَلِيلاً وَلَوْ أَرَاكَهُمْ كَثِيراً لَّفَشِلْتُمْ وَلَتَنَـزَعْتُمْ فِى الاٌّمْرِ وَلَـكِنَّ اللَّهَ سَلَّمَ إِنَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِذَاتِ الصُّدُورِ - وَإِذْ يُرِيكُمُوهُمْ إِذِ الْتَقَيْتُمْ فِى أَعْيُنِكُمْ قَلِيلاً وَيُقَلِّلُكُمْ فِى أَعْيُنِهِمْ لِيَقْضِىَ اللَّهُ أَمْراً كَانَ مَفْعُولاً وَإِلَى اللَّهِ تُرْجَعُ الأُمُورُ ]

(43. (Et rappelle-toi) quand Allah te les avait montrés peux nombreux dans ton rêve, si Il te les avait montrés le nombre qu'ils étaient, tu aurais été surement découragé''', et tu aurais certainement disputer dans ta décision. Mais Allah vous a sauvé. En effet, Il est le Grand Connaisseur de ce cache les poitrines.) (44. Et (rappelle-toi) quand vous les avait rencontrés, '''Il vous les avait montrés peux nombreux dans votre regard and Il vous a fait apparaître peux nombreux dans leurs yeux, ceci afin qu'Allah accomplisse un décret déjà ordonné''', et à Allah reviennent toutes les affaires (pour la décision).)

Mujahid a rapporté, "dans un rêve, Allah a montré au Prophète ses ennemis peu nombreux. Le prophète a relayé cette nouvelle à ses Compagnons et cela leur résolution a été renforcée.'' La même informations a été rapporté par Ibn Ishaq et quelques autres. Allah a dit

[وَلَوْ أَرَاكَهُمْ كَثِيراً لَّفَشِلْتُمْ]

(Si Il vous les avait montrés nombreux comme ils l'étaient, vous auriez surement été découragé,) vous vous seriez lâchement abstenu de les rencontrer et vous seriez rentré dans la dispute,

[وَلَـكِنَّ اللَّهَ سَلَّمَ]

(Mais Allah vous sa sauvés), de tout ça, quand Il vous les a fait voir peu nombreux

[إِنَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِذَاتِ الصُّدُورِ]

(Certainement, Il est le Grand-Connaisseur du contenu des poitrines.) [8:43]

Allah sait ce que votre poitrine et votre conscience cachent,

[يَعْلَمُ خَآئِنَةَ الاٌّعْيُنِ وَمَا تُخْفِى الصُّدُورُ ]

(Allah voit les les mauvais regards, et tout ce que votre poitrine cache) [40:19].

La déclaration d'Allah

[وَإِذْ يُرِيكُمُوهُمْ إِذِ الْتَقَيْتُمْ فِى أَعْيُنِكُمْ قَلِيلاً]

(Et (rappelez-vous) quand vous les avait rencontrés, '''Il vous les a montrés peu nombreux à vos yeux) démontre la compassion d'Allah envers les croyants. Allah a rendu l'apparence des mécréants peu nombreux à leurs yeux, afin qu'ils ne soient pas découragés et soient à même de les rencontrer'''. Abu Ishaq As-Subai'i a dit, que Abu 'Ubaydah a rapporté que 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud a dit, "Ils ont été rendu peu nombreux à vos yeux durant la bataille de Badr, au point où je dis à un homme à côté de moi, 'Penses-tu qu'ils soient une soixantaine' Il a dit, 'Plutôt, ils sont une centaine.' D'ailleurs, quand nous avons capturé l'un d'entre eux, nous lui avons demandé leur nombre et il a dit, 'Nous étions mille.''' Ibn Abi Hatim et Ibn Jarir l'ont enregistré. Allah a dit par la suite,

[وَيُقَلِّلُكُمْ فِى أَعْيُنِهِمْ]

(Et Il vous a fait apparaître peu nombreux à leurs yeux,) Allah dit,

[وَإِذْ يُرِيكُمُوهُمْ إِذِ الْتَقَيْتُمْ]

(Et (rappelez-vous) quand vous les avait rencontré. Il vous les a montrés....), Il a encouragé chacun des deux groupes contre l'autre, accordé par 'Ikrimah, comme rapport& par Ibn Abi Hatim.

}}

Kathir relève pour lui plutôt dans cet événement de la "compassion" de la part d'Allah pour avoir montrer les adversaires de Mohammed 'moins nombreux' alors qu'ils étaient nombreux, cela n'empêche pas le fait qu'Allah a trompé les musulmans de cette manière - c'était une tromperie évidente et simple. Si nous vous disons que vous êtes condamnés à 3 ans sous les barreaux grâce à votre déclaration sous serment, mais nous savons (et dissimulons) la vérité que vous y resterez actuellement 6 ans, ce n'est pas ce qu'on appelle de la compassion, c'est juste de la tromperie pur et dur. Dans le même ordre d'idée, on peut clairement manifester qu'Allah a délibérément tromper les Musulmans dans ces versets pour leur faire ce qu'Il a envie qu'ils fassent, ([[The Meaning of Qatal|ici se battre]]). Cette exemple seul réfute toutes les réclamations "qu'Allah trompe trompe seulement ses ennemis" alors que nous pouvons savoir qu'Allah a trompé Mohammed - uswa hasana - à partir de là il n'est effectivement pas improbable qu'Allah trompera et a trompé d'autres Musulmans avant et après cette événement.

==== Allah a crée lui-même le Christianisme grâce à la tromperie====

Selon l'Islam, [[Jesus|Jésus]] n'est pas [[God|Dieu]], et il n'a ''pas'' été crucifié, malgré tout, l'une des plus grandes religions a prit ses bases de la mort de Jésus' sur la croix et de sa résurrection ultérieure. C'est le cœur même du Christianisme. Allah néanmoins, revendique sans le moindre doute dans le Coran que Jésus n'a jamais été crucifié (et n'est même pas mort) et il n'est du tout le fils de Dieu, impliquant que les Chrétiens sont vraiment égarés dans leurs croyances. Mais pourquoi alors les Chrétiens croient qu'il a été crucifié ? Parce que Allah admet qu'il a crée ce trompe-l’œil :

{{quote | {{cite quran|4|157|end=158|style=ref}}|et à cause leur parole : "Nous avons vraiment tué le Christ, Jésus, fils de Marie, le Messager d'Allah"... Or, ils ne l'ont ni tué ni crucifié; '''mais ce n'était qu'un faux semblant!''' Et ceux qui ont discuté sur son sujet sont vraiment dans l'incertitude : ils n'en ont aucune connaissance certaine, ils ne font que suivre des conjectures et ils ne l'ont certainement pas tué.
mais Allah l'a élevé vers Lui. Et Allah est Puissant et Sage.. }}

Donc nous savons qu'Allah reconnaît avoir crée ce mirage (pour les gens) que Jésus n'a pas été crucifié sur la croix (et en est mort), mais qu'Allah l'a élevé vers lui (il l'a monté au ciel). Encore une fois Allah admet de tromper les gens. Pour les 6 siècles qui sont passés, Allah s'est assis et a admiré tous ces gens qui se sont convertis et ont soutenu le Christianisme; une religion qui est née de la tromperie d'Allah, mais il n'a pas bouger un doigt pour remettre les choses en place pendant ces 600 ans, et plus tard il envoya Mohammed avec le Coran - pour arranger le désordre qu'Il a lui-même crée.

Revoyons un autre point essentiel maintenant; Allah a envoyé Jésus pour réparer les erreurs qui ont été introduites dans le Judaïsme, mais Allah annule toutes les corrections que Jésus était censé amener en illusionnant sa crucifixion et en l'élevant au ciel. Cela annule tout l'objectif même de l'envoi de Jésus et laisse les contemporains de cette époque non avec la seule religion véridique d'Allah, mais deux religions : Judaïsme et Christianisme qui implique (parmi d'autres choses) de suivre le message de Jésus, qu'Allah lui-même a corrompu en montant Jésus vers les cieux. Alors pour les 600 ans, la pure religion d'Allah ne pouvait pas être trouvée et répandue sur cette Terre et maintenant (merci à la tromperie d'Allah) Il a amené deux religions concurrentes pour tromper les gens et les éloigner du "droit chemin". Cela n'a aucun sens.

==== Conclusion ====

Pour conclure on peut voir que ces objections (sur le contexte) sont impertinentes car la déclaration de ces versets est définitive (ne dépend pas du contexte) et à partir du Coran lui-même, nous remarquons qu'Allah n'a pas de problème à tromper :
* "Les ennemis de L'Islam"
* Les musulmans
* Les personnes innocentes - qui ont vécu pendant ces 600 ans d'écart entre l'Evangile et la venue du Coran

==Réponses aux apologétiques==
#'''''"Selon le site corpus de l'arabe coranique, 'Makr' signifie 'Planificateur'"''''' Le site corpus d'arabe coranique déclare en même temps que ''Idriboohunna'' dans le Coran en 4:34 veut dire "[[Beat_your_Wives_or_Separate_from_Them_-_Quran_4-34|séparez-vous d'elle]]" (c.-à-d. les maris de leurs époux) plutôt que "frappez-les" pour la peur de la désobéissance. Cependant, ''Idriboohunna'' (أضربوهن) signifie "frappez-les" (du pluriel féminin). ''Adriboo Anhunna'' (اضربوا عنهن) est la phrase qui se traduit par délaissez or séparez-vous d'elle. Ce sont des phrases totalement différentes avec des sens complètement opposés, et les tentatives pour combiner les deux est une façon moderne utilisée par quelques musulmans occidentaux. Pour sa crédibilité, le site a reconnu cette erreur en corrigeant cette fausse traduction flagrante, et ils ont ainsi montré qu'ils étaient une source douteuse pour la langue arabe. En tout cas, le Edward William Lane's ''Arabic-English Lexicon (Lexique arabe-anglais)'' (le dictionnaire anglais le plus révéré et le plus fiable de la langue arabe), ''Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic (le dictionnaire Hans Wehr de l'écriture arabe moderne'', and the ''Arabic Lexicon (le lexique arabe)'' sont tous en désaccord avec le site corpus de l'arabe coranique (Quranic Arabic Corpus website's) pour la définition du mot. Et une seule de ces sources est plus fiable que le site web. A ajouter à la pile de ces sources confirmées, Dr. Jamal Badawi et Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajjid qui sont deux arabophones de naissance et des personnes respectables (sur le thème de l'Islam). Bien qu'ils essayent de justifier l'utilisation de ce mot, ils admettent tous deux que makr veut dire trompeur.

{{Core POTB}}

==Voir aussi==

* [[Les articles en francais - Articles in French|Les articles en français (Articles in French)]]

'''En anglais'''

{{Hub4|Lying|Lying}}
{{Hub4|Allah|Allah}}

{{Translation-links-francais|[[Allah_the_Best_Deceiver|anglaise]]}}

== Liens externes (en anglais)==

* [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/allah_best_deceiver.htm|2=2011-11-24}} Allah the greatest deceiver of them all]
* [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/cornelius/makr.html|2=2011-11-24}} Allah: Truthful or Deceiver?]
* [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/deceptive_god.htm|2=2011-11-24}} Deceptive God, Incompetent Messiah]

'''Ressources'''

* [http://www.ghazali.org/books/wehr-cowan-76.pdf Hans-Wehr Dictionary - mkr (page 917)] ''(40MB PDF file)''
* [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume7/00000256.pdf|2=2011-11-24}} Lane's Lexicon - mkr - Volume 7, Page 256]
* [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.studyquran.co.uk/14_MIIM.htm|2=2011-11-24}} Lane's Lexicon online summary - Mim-Kaf-Ra]

== Références ==
{{Reflist|30em}}

[[Category:Français (French)]]

User talk:Heitri2

2015-03-14T17:20:47Z

Heitri2: /* Edits */

Taurah (the Torah According to the Qur'an)

2015-03-14T14:11:44Z

Heitri2:

==The Taurat according to the Qur'an==

The [[Qur'an]] talks of the ''' Taurat/Tawrah ''' ( توراة ) referring to the Torah - the first five books of the Jewish Bible; found in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. Some Muslims and scholars believe it refers to the entire Old Testament, but this view is not widely held.

The Qur'an reports the Taurat to be one of the three previous [[Revelations]] of [[Allah]] (The other two being the [[Zabur]] and [[Injil]] ). The Qur'an asserts that Allah revealed the previous scriptures to the Jews and to the Christians, but that those who knew the scriptures 'changed the words from their right places' and 'forgot a good part of the message'. Regarding the Taurat:

{{ quote | {{Quran|5|44}}|Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.}}

The Qur'an also claims to 'confirm what they (People of the Book - Jews and Christians) have with them':

{{ quote | {{Quran|5|15}}| O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;}}

== Muslim Claims about the Taurat ==

As with the Injil, the majority of Muslims believe that Allah tells them in the Qur'an that the "People of the Book" (Jews and Christians) have corrupted the Taurat; thus its contents no longer reflect the "true words" of Allah. Muslims claim that the actual Jewish texts have been changed, yet the Qur'an never makes this claim. It clearly states that the Jews knew what the Taurat said, as they had the correct texts with them, but changed the words and meanings in their oral recitations to the illiterate people. Ie. they said that the Torah said something that it did not actually say. The Qur'an makes this clear when it states:

{{ quote | {{Quran|2|101}}|And when there came to them a Messenger from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing.}}

Clearly the Taurat was textually intact when the Qur'an was being revealed; as the Jews '' knew '' what the 'book of Allah' said, but 'threw it behind their backs as if they knew nothing.' [[Muhammad]] believed that he was prophesied in the Bible, and this was one of the things that the 'People of the Book' were keeping hidden.

== Muslim evidence of Corruption ==

As with the Injil, Muslims present verse 2:79 as evidence that the Qur'an '' does '' actually state that the previous revelations were corrupt during the time of Muhammad:

{{ quote | {{Quran|2|79}}| Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.}}

However, looking at these [[Corruption of Previous Scriptures (Qur'an 2:79)|verses in context]], along with other verses mentioning the previous scriptures, proves this claim to be incorrect.

Muslims present further proof that the Taurat is corrupt by pointing to the differences in accounting of events common to both texts between the Taurat and the Qur'an. They claim that anything that contradicts the Qur'an is 'corruption'. However this excuse is not valid, as the Torah precedes the Qur'an; thus we must label any contradictions on the part of the Qur'an, as corruption from the original texts. Considering there is absolutely no archaeological evidence (scrolls and such) that confirms the claims of Muslims or the Qur'an, we must discard this interpretation.

Although Muslims believe the 'previous scriptures' to be corrupt , they believe the Qur'an remains unchanged from the moment of revelation, until this day; that Allah is 'protecting it from corruption.' Muslims are also told that they are to believe in the "previous Revelations", although the word of the Qur'an supersedes them all. This does not fit with the claim of textual corruption.

So the question remains: Why does Allah protect the Qur'an, but was unable to protect the Taurat? Also, why would you be ordered to believe in something that you claim is corrupt ? How can we trust him when Allah says that he is going to protect the Qu'ran from corruption ?

{{Quote|{{Quran|15|9}}

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). }}

{{Core POTB}}

== See Also ==

{{Hub4|Revelations|Revelations}}

==External Links==
*[http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2010/09/defecation-torah-new-testament Istinja' (cleansing your anus) with the Torah and New Testament] ''- Daniel Pipes''

[[Category:Qur'an]]
[[Category:People of the Book]]

Misrepresentations of Islamic Scripture

2015-03-14T12:24:42Z

Heitri2: Didn't manage to quote correctly at the Conclusion of "Those who blow themselves up are throwing themselves into destruction (2:195)", could someone do it for me ?

Many apologists use [[Misinterpreted Verses|mis-interpreted]] and/or misleading paraphrased [[Qur'an|Qur'anic]] verses to propagate [[Islam]]. This page discusses a few of the more popular ones and provides their correct meaning.

==Killing a person is like killing all of mankind (5:32)==
{{main|If Anyone Slew a Person|l1=If Anyone Slew a Person (Qur'an 5:32)}}

===Verse===

{{Quote|{{Quran|5|32}}|On that account: '''We ordained for the Children of Israel''' that if anyone slew a person - unless it be in retaliation for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew all mankind: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all humanity. }}

===Meaning of Verse===

This famous verse is often misquoted. Written in past tense, it clearly does not apply to Muslims but to "the Children of Israel" i.e. the Jews who, according to Islam, recieved an earlier set of scriptures. When read in context with the next two verses, it is in actual fact a chilling warning to non-believers.

{{Quote|{{Quran|5|33-34}}|The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.}}

According to the highly respected Qur'anic exegesis of Ibn Kathir- early qur'anic commentator and [[Tabi'un|Tabi‘un]], Sayid ibn Jubayr (who lived at the time of Muhammad, and was a companion of Ayesha), had said:

{{Quote|1=[http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=786&Itemid=60 Human Beings Should Respect the Sanctity of Other Human Beings] Tafsir Ibn Kathir|2=[فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيعاً] 
.....Sa`id bin Jubayr said, "He who allows himself to shed the blood of a '''Muslim''', is like he who allows shedding the blood of all people. He who forbids shedding the blood of one '''Muslim''', is like he who forbids shedding the blood of all people." In addition, Ibn Jurayj said that Al-A`raj said that Mujahid commented on the Ayah,}}

That verse also says it is okay to kill someone who does "[[mischief]]". In the Tafsir ibn Kathir, Qatada, one of Muhammad's companions, explained the definition of "Mischief" according to Islam.

{{Quote|[http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=436 Meaning of Mischief] Tafsir Ibn Kathir|(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,"), means, "Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. '''Their mischief is disobeying Allah''', because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth.}}

===Conclusion===

This verse is not condemning the killing of a non-Muslim, but is issuing a stern warning to those who oppose or reject Islam.

==Let there be no compulsion in religion (2:256)==
{{main|Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Forced Conversion}}

===Verse===

{{Quote|1={{Quran|2|256}}|2=Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.}}

===Meaning of Verse===

A very famous misinterpreted verse, actually referring to people in other religions converting to Islam.

{{quote|{{Abudawud|14|2676}}|Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas 

When the children of a woman (in pre-Islamic days) did not survive, she took a vow on herself that if her child survives, she would convert it a Jew. When Banu an-Nadir were expelled (from Arabia), there were some children of the Ansar (Helpers) among them. They said: We shall not leave our children. So Allah the Exalted revealed; "Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error."}}

Ibn Kathir in the version of his tafsir abridged by Sheikh Muhammad Nasib Ar-Rafa‘i, has this to say (note that this portion has not been translated by Safiur Rahman Mubarakpuri who is responsible for the ''abridged'' version of Tafsir Ibn Kathir widely available on the internet):

{{Quote|Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Al-Firdous Ltd., London, 1999: First Edition, Part 3, pp. 37-38|Allah says: "There is no compulsion in religion", meaning: do not force anyone to embrace Islam, because it is clear and its proofs and evidences are manifest. Whoever Allah guides and opens his heart to Islam has indeed embraced it with clear evidence. Whoever Allah misguides blinds his heart and has set a seal on his hearing and a covering on his eyes cannot embrace Islam by force...hence Allah revealed this verse. '''But, this verse is abrogated by the verse of "fighting...Therefore, all people of the world should be called to Islam. If anyone of them refuses to do so, or refuses to pay the Jizya they should be fought till they are killed. This is the meaning of compulsion.''' In the Sahih, the Prophet said: "Allah wonders at those people who will enter Paradise in chains", meaning prisoners brought in chains to the Islamic state, then they embrace Islam sincerely and become righteous, and are entered among the people of Paradise.<ref>Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Surah Al-Baqarah, ayat 253 to 286, Surah Al-Imran, ayat 1 to 92, abridged by Sheikh Muhammad Nasib Ar-Rafa‘i [Al-Firdous Ltd., London, 1999: First Edition], Part 3, pp. 37-38</ref>}}

{{Quote|[http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=138&Itemid= No Compulsion in Religion ] Tafsir Ibn Kathir| Allah said,

(There is no compulsion in religion), meaning, "Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam.''

It was reported that the Ansar were the reason behind revealing this Ayah, although its indication is general in meaning. Ibn Jarir recorded that Ibn `Abbas said ﴿that before Islam﴾, "When (an Ansar) woman would not bear children who would live, she would vow that if she gives birth to a child who remains alive, she would raise him as a Jew. When Banu An-Nadir (the Jewish tribe) were evacuated ﴿from Al-Madinah﴾, some of the children of the Ansar were being raised among them, and the Ansar said, `We will not abandon our children.'

Allah revealed,

(There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path.)''

Abu Dawud and An-Nasa'i also recorded this Hadith. As for the Hadith that Imam Ahmad recorded, in which Anas said that the Messenger of Allah said to a man, Abu Dawud and An-Nasa'i also recorded this Hadith. As for the Hadith that Imam Ahmad recorded, in which Anas said that the Messenger of Allah said to a man, ("Embrace Islam.'' The man said, "I dislike it.'' The Prophet said, "'''Even if you dislike it.''''')

First, this is an authentic Hadith, with only three narrators between Imam Ahmad and the Prophet . However, it is not relevant to the subject under discussion, for the Prophet did not force that man to become Muslim. The Prophet merely invited this man to become Muslim, and he replied that he does not find himself eager to become Muslim. The Prophet said to the man that even though he dislikes embracing Islam, he should still embrace it, `for Allah will grant you sincerity and true intent.' }}

===Conclusion===

This verse has nothing to do with tolerance of other beliefs.

==Those who blow themselves up are throwing themselves into destruction (2:195)==

===Verse===

{{Quote|{{Quran|2|195}}|And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good.}}

===Meaning of Verse===

In this verse, destruction actually refers to abandoning Jihad, and like verse 5:32, means the complete opposite of what apologists claim.

{{Quote|Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi, An-Nasa'i, `Abd bin Humayd in his Tafsir, Ibn Abu Hatim, Ibn Jarir, Ibn Marduwyah, Al-Hafiz Abu Ya`la in his Musnad, Ibn Hibban and Al-Hakim|"A man from among the Ansar broke enemy (Byzantine) lines in Constantinople (Istanbul). Abu Ayyub Al-Ansari was with us then. So some people said, `He is throwing himself to destruction.'

Abu Ayyub said, `We know this Ayah (2:195) better, for it was revealed about us, the Companions of Allah's Messenger who participated in Jihad with him and aided and supported him. When Islam became strong, we, the Ansar, met and said to each other, `Allah has honored us by being the Companions of His Prophet and in supporting him until Islam became victorious and its following increased. We had before ignored the needs of our families, estates and children. Warfare has ceased, so let us go back to our families and children and attend to them.' So this Ayah was revealed about us:

(And spend in the cause of Allah and do not throw yourselves into destruction.)''' the destruction refers to staying with our families and estates and abandoning Jihad'''."<ref>[http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5087 The Command to spend in the Cause of Allah] - Tafsir Ibn Kathir</ref>}}

===Conclusion===

The ones who are committing destruction and suicide in Allah's eyes are the peace loving Muslims who refuse to participate in Jihad. Sahih (authentic) hadith record Muhammad calling these lukewarm Muslims 'hypocrites'.

{{Quote|{{Muslim|2|4696}}|It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihad died the death of a hypocrite. }}

{{Quote|1=[http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=197 Jihad is made Obligatory] Sahih hadith, Tafsir Ibn Kathir|2=Whoever dies but neither fought (i.e., in Allah's cause), nor sincerely considered fighting, will die a death of Jahiliyyah (pre-Islamic era of ignorance.}}

{{Quote|1=[[http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.al-islam.org%2Fa-muslim-in-society-al-balagh%2Fjihad-holy-struggle-obligatory-duty&date=2015-03-14] |2=Jihad (Holy Struggle) is an Obligatory Duty

“O Prophet! Strive hard agaunt the infidels and the hypocrites, and be firm against them, and their abode is hell, and evil is their resort.” Holy Qur'an (66:9)

“Go forth (equipped) lightly or heavily, and strive hard in Allah's cause with your property and own selves; this is better for you, if you know.” Holy Qur'an (9:41)

Jihad is a holy duty made obligatory upon all Muslims by Allah, the Almighty. The Muslims should defend themselves if being attacked in order to preserve their faith, spread Islam, and stand against tyrants and oppressors. Allah made jihad obligatory, in all its forms, whether it is the jihad of society or self, speaking a word for the sake of preserving Islamic call Da'wah, or defending the sanctuaries of the Muslim nation. Jihad is considered among the best forms of worship with Allah, the Most High.

He who spends even a small amount of money in Allah's way will find his reward increased many times by the Beneficent Creator. Whoever is harmed or suffers inflictions in the cause of Allah will have his reward with Allah on the Resurrection Day.

The martyr who sacrifices himself and dies for the sake of his faith finds his place in Paradise. He receives blessings from the prophets and the righteous. He is alive and provided for by Allah, The Exalted.}}

==If they incline towards peace, you incline also, Allah hates aggressors (8:61)==

===Verse===

{{Quote|{{Quran|8|61}}|But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).}}

===Meaning of Verse===

[[Abrogation|Abrogation]] (Naskh) refers to one Qur'anic verse superseding another, and is itself supported by [[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Islamic Theology#Abrogation|Qur'anic verses]] and various hadith narrations. According to Ibn ‘Abbās (Muhammad's Cousin) verse 8:61 has been replaced by another well known verse.

{{Quote|[http://quran.com/8/61 Surat Al-'Anfāl (The Spoils of War) 8:61] Ibn Abbas in Tafsir Ibn Abbas and Tafsir al-Jalalayn (Suyuti) |‘This has been abrogated by the “sword verse” [Q. 9:5]’}}

And here is that verse in full.

{{Quote|{{Quran|9|5}}|But when the forbidden months are past, then '''fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)'''; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.}}

Notice that it says "if they ''repent, and establish regular prayers'' and practice regular charity, then open the way for them". The only way a non-believer can repent and establish regular prayers, is by converting to Islam. Muhammad also said, fighting must go on even after it stops.

{{Quote|1=[http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2035&Itemid=103 The Command to strike the Enemies' Necks] Tafsir Ibn Kathir|2=(Until the war lays down its burden.) Mujahid said:''' "Until `Isa bin Maryam (peace be upon him) descends. It seems as if he derived this opinion from the Prophet's saying, There will always be a group of my Ummah victorious upon the truth, until the last of them fight against Ad-Dajjal'''.) Imam Ahmad recorded from Jubayr bin Nufayr who reported from Salamah bin Nufayl that he went to the Messenger of Allah and said, "'''I have let my horse go, and thrown down my weapon, for the war has ended. There is no more fighting. Then the Prophet said to him, Now the time of fighting has come.''' There will always be a group of my Ummah dominant over others.''' Allah will turn the hearts of some people away (from the truth), so they (that group) will fight against them'''}}

===Conclusion===

Verse 8:60 is no longer applicable to Muslims and many scholars agree.

{{Quote|Ibn Taymiyyah|"It is the consensus of the scholars of this Ummah that if part of the religion is Allah's and other part is not, fighting must go on until the entire religion is Allah's".<ref>Shaykh ul-Islaam Taqi ud-Deen Ahmad ibn Taymiyyah - [http://www.fisabeelillah.org/books/manhaj/The-Religious-And-Moral-Doctrine-Of-Jihad.pdf The Religious and Moral Doctrine of Jihaad] - p.28, 2001 Maktabah Al Ansaar Publications, ISBN 0953984753</ref>}}

{{Quote|[http://www.islamistwatch.org/main.html Join The Caravan, p9] Sheikh Abdullah Yusuf Azzam|"Jihad and the rifle alone. NO negotiations, NO conferences and NO dialogue."}}

{{Quote|[http://www.islamistwatch.org/main.html Join The Caravan, p20] Sheikh Abdullah Yusuf Azzam|"So, if the fighting stops, the disbelievers will dominate, and fitnah, which is Shirk (polytheism), will spread."}}

==Fight those who fight you (2:190)==

===Verse===

{{Quote|{{Quran|2|190}}|Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.}}

===Meaning of verse===

Again, This verse has been abrogated by verses from chapter nine.

{{Quote|1=[http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=190&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Surat Al-Baqarah (The Cow) 2:190] Tafsir al jalayn (Suyuti)|2=After the Prophet (s) was prevented from [visiting] the House in the year of the battle of Hudaybiyya, he made a pact with the disbelievers that he would be allowed to return the following year, at which time they would vacate Mecca for three days. Having prepared to depart for the Visitation [‘umra], [he and] the believers were concerned that Quraysh would not keep to the agreement and instigate fighting. The Muslims were averse to becoming engaged in fighting while in a state of pilgrimage inviolability in the Sacred Enclosure [al-haram] and during the sacred months, and so the following was revealed: And fight in the way of God, to elevate His religion, with those who fight against you, the disbelievers, but aggress not, against them by initiating the fighting; God loves not the aggressors, the ones that overstep the bounds which God has set for them:''' this stipulation was abrogated by the verse of barā’a, ‘immunity’ [Q. 9:1], or by His saying below''':}}

{{Quote|1=[http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=235 The Command to fight Those Who fight Muslims and killing Them wherever They are found] Tafsir Ibn Kathir|2=(And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you,)
Abu Al-`Aliyah said, "This was the first Ayah about fighting that was revealed in Al-Madinah. Ever since it was revealed, Allah's Messenger '''used to''' fight only those who fought him and avoid non-combatants. Later, Surat Bara'ah (chapter 9 in the Qur'an) was revealed." `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said similarly, then he said that this was later '''abrogated by the Ayah'''}}

===Conclusion===

Al Taubah (Repentance) is considered to be the [[The Ultimate Message of the Qur'an|closing remarks]] of Allah.

{{Quote|{{Muslim|11|3941}}|Abu Ishaq said that he heard al-Bara' b 'Azib (Allah be pleased with him) say: The last complete sura revealed (in the Holy Qur'an) is Sura tauba (i e. al-Bara'at, ix.), and the last verse revealed is that pertaining to '''Kalala'''.}}

With all things considered, it should not come as a big surprise to learn that this final chapter is not at all about making peace among the people.

==Fight them until there is no more oppression (8:39)==

===Verse===

{{Quote| {{Quran|8|39}} |And fight them on until there is no more '''tumult or oppression''' [Fitna], and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.}}

===Meaning of Verse===

The Arabic word ''Fitna'' (فِتْنَةٌ‎) does not have the same meaning as given by our three official translators (Yusuf Ali, Picktall, Shakir), which is "tumult" and "oppression".

{{Quote|1=[http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=231 The Order to fight until there is no more Fitnah] Tafsir Ibn Kathir|2=Allah then commanded fighting the disbelievers when He said:

(...until there is no more Fitnah) meaning, Shirk. This is the opinion of Ibn `Abbas, Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ar-Rabi`, Muqatil bin Hayyan, As-Suddi and Zayd bin Aslam.

Allah's statement:

(...and the religion (all and every kind of worship) is for Allah (Alone).) means, `So that the religion of Allah becomes dominant above all other religions.' It is reported in the Two Sahihs that Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari said: "The Prophet was asked, `O Allah's Messenger! A man fights out of bravery, and another fights to show off, which of them fights in the cause of Allah' The Prophet said:

(He who fights so that Allah's Word is superior, then he fights in Allah's cause.) In addition, it is reported in the Two Sahihs:

(I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people until they proclaim, `None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. Whoever said it, then he will save his life and property from me, except for cases of the law, and their account will be with Allah.) }}

{{Quote|Tafsir al-Tabari|So fight them until there is no more shirk, and none is worshipped except Allaah alone with no partner or associate, and trials and calamities, which are disbelief and polytheism, are lifted from the slaves of Allaah on earth, and religion is all for Allaah alone, and so that obedience and worship will be devoted to Him alone and none else.<ref>[http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/34647/Martyrdom The reason why jihaad is prescribed] - Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 34647</ref>}}

===Conclusion===

Oppression or not, Muslims must continue to fight until there is no religion but Islam.

==Those who believe in God, Christians and Jews, shall be in Heaven (2:62)==
:''Main Article: [[Christians Jews and Muslims in Heaven|Christians, Jews and Muslims in Heaven]]''

===Verse===

{{Quote|{{Quran|2|62}}|Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.}}

===Meaning of Verse===

This verse is often quoted by Muslims in an effort to prove Islam is tolerant and inclusive of other faiths. After all, how much more tolerant can a faith be than to allow the followers of other faiths into its vision of heaven?

However, this is in direct conflict with the following:

{{Quote|{{Quran|48|13}}|And if any believe not in Allah '''and His Messenger''', We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!}}

As most Muslims will already be aware, this is not a contradiction per se, when you take abrogation into consideration. Verse 2:62 has been abrogated by verse 3:85.

{{Quote|{{Quran|3|85}}|And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.}}

===Conclusion===

Heaven in Islam is exclusive to Muslims. Christians and Jews may believe in God, but they do not believe in "His Messenger". Thus they are destined for the "Blazing Fire".

The only way a Christian or Jew can make it into heaven is by accepting Muhammad as a prophet, but then they would no longer be Christians or Jews, they would be Muslims.

In fact, Muslims will be spared hell-fire by Allah on the Day of Resurrection by making innocent Christians and Jews take their place and be thrown into hell.

{{Quote|{{Muslim|37|6665}}, See also: {{Muslim|37|6666}}, {{Muslim|37|6667}}, and {{Muslim|37|6668}}|Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.}}

==To you be your way, and to me mine (109:1-6)==
{{Main|To You Your Religion and To Me Mine}}

===Verse===

{{Quote|{{Quran|109|1-6}}|Say: O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine.}}

===Meaning of Verse===

{{Quote|[http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.islamicity.com%2Fmosque%2Fquran%2Fmaududi%2Fmau109.html&date=2015-03-14 Commentary on Qur'an Chapter 109:1-6] Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi, Tafhim al-Qur'an|There was a time in Makkah when although a storm of opposition had arisen in the pagan society of Quraish against the message of Islam preached by the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace), yet the Quraish chiefs hall not yet lost hope that they would reach some sort of a compromise with him. Therefore, from time to time they would visit him with different proposals of compromise so that he accepted one of them and the dispute between them was brought to an end. . . . 
If the Surah is read with this background in mind, one finds that it was not revealed to preach religious tolerance as some people of today seem to think, but it was revealed in order to exonerate the Muslims from the disbelievers religion, their rites of worship, and their gods, and to express their total disgust and unconcern with them and to tell them that Islam and kufr (unbelief) had nothing in common and there was no possibility of their being combined and mixed into one entity. Although it was addressed in the beginning to the disbelieving Quraish in response to their proposals of compromise, yet it is not confined to them only, but having made it a part of the Quran, Allah gave the Muslims the eternal teaching that they should exonerate themselves by word and deed from the creed of kufr wherever and in whatever form it be, and should declare without any reservation that they cannot make any compromise with the disbelievers in the matter of Faith. That is why this Surah continued to be recited when the people to whom it was addressed as a rejoinder, had died and been forgotten, and those Muslims also continued to recite it who were disbelievers at the time it was revealed, and the Muslims still recite it centuries after they have passed away, for expression of disgust with and dissociation from kufr and its rites is a perpetual demand of Faith.}}

===Conclusion===

When read in context, like many other verses misinterpreted for apologetic purposes, surat al-Kafiroon advocates the opposite of what is sometimes claimed. This surah is not a proclamation on religious tolerance and freedom or a recognition of religious pluralism.

{{Core Propaganda}}

==See Also==

{{Hub4|Misinterpreted Verses|Misinterpreted Verses}}
{{Hub4|Lying|lying}}
* [[List of Fabricated Hadith]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Qur'an]]
[[Category:Islamic Propaganda]]

User talk:Axius

2015-03-14T12:14:21Z

Heitri2: /* About my modifications */ new section

[[Image:Crystal Clear action edit add.png|15px]] {{plainlink|url={{SERVER}}/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Axius&action=edit&section=new '''Leave a message'''}}

[[User talk:Axius/Archive]]

== Moon split ==

I see Wikiepedia has made it a GA. So where do I respond to their claims? We have [[Witnessing the Moon Splitting Miracle]] responses section. But it is made for an Indian king. Should I make some changes in its lead and respond to WP there itself? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 08:07, 22 April 2014 (PDT)

I think you should also include recently improved articles with new articles in the home page. it will be better. Ready for this?

:What claims do you want to respond to? Wikipedia article -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_of_the_moon
:I think the NASA scientist's statement takes care of it in the Hoax section [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_of_the_moon#Modern_hoax]
: For your addition, what is the source for the Asteroid theory? I want to read it. [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Witnessing_the_Moon_Splitting_Miracle&diff=107071&oldid=97628]
:Recently improved, depends on the amount of improvement. If its a lot we have been listing it as "revised" or something like that. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:56, 22 April 2014 (PDT)
::I did in [[Witnessing the Moon Splitting Miracle‎]]. Do the check.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:36, 23 April 2014 (PDT)
:::Oops, my bad. There are two sources in wikipedia, it could be any of them. no. 4: Annemarie Schimmel, no 5: Robert G. Mourison. I cant check them. But like sahab said before we need not mention sources for claims. Simply its there on wp, we can respond here.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:55, 23 April 2014 (PDT)
:::i saw [[Giordano Bruno (crater)]]. It has a similar incident reported by monks.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:00, 23 April 2014 (PDT)
Ok, for starters you can do some cleanup on the Wikipedia article [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_of_the_moon#cite_note-13] does not qualify for their policy WP:RS. Be sure not to do 3RR and follow wikipedia policies. This means a lot of "Some Muslim scholars postulate and believe ...." can be deleted from there.

Also a strong refutation for the asteroid claim is that Quran and hadith themselves say that the split happened, so if these scholars imply it did not split and it was an illusion created by an asteroid, they're basically saying the Quran/hadith contain false statements about something that really did not happen. I included that.

I dont know why its marked as a GA article ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Splitting_of_the_moon&diff=365925717&oldid=361772125 2010]). You can remove the GA tag (its a template at the end of the article) and it was placed in the article since a long time ago (atleast September 2012) and take the matter to the talk page in case someone restores it. GA articles have to follow strict standards and at least one of the source being used is not acceptable so its not a GA. Our article should also directly quote the relevant Quranic verse. [http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/054-qmt.php#054.1-2]. Probably needs a lot of work both on Wikipedia and here. You can also repeat the NASA claim in the lead of the article. Good luck as everything is a battle there with regards to Islam, even simple things like this. And yea you can change/improve our article any way you want. I'll have to review it though. If I was you I would start with the Wikipedia article, take the GA tag off and those scholar statements off, insert the NASA statement in the lead as NASA scientists are an important source of reliable information about the moon. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:14, 23 April 2014 (PDT)
:That article is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Protection_policy#semi semi-protected] which means if you dont have an account already you can make one but it will have to be: "is at least four days old and has at least ten edits to Wikipedia". --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:19, 24 April 2014 (PDT)
::I made a username there and when its 4 days old I'll do some of this. I usually dont edit Wikipedia but some of this stuff is simple and wont take time so I'll try it. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 12:29, 26 April 2014 (PDT)

== Martyrs of Córdoba ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_C%C3%B3rdoba] is it allowed here? Because it is not about any texts so i had doubt.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:21, 25 April 2014 (PDT)
:If its related to criticism of Islam (coi). Can you give a short summary in relation to COI? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:46, 25 April 2014 (PDT)
::They were saints and killed for not converting under the Caliph. Summary means do I have to quote the quran for this case in the article?[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 04:36, 26 April 2014 (PDT)
:::Ok yea you can quote the Quran. Wikipedia [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_of_C%C3%B3rdoba#List_of_martyrs] says some were killed for other reasons e.g. "She escaped, openly denounced Muhammad and was beheaded." Is it going to have information that is not on the Wikipedia article? We dont have to duplicate it. A short stub is fine but it should have references for any claims not present on Wikipedia. Yea start it in a Sandbox see how it goes. [[User:Saggy/Martyrs of Cordoba]] --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 06:44, 26 April 2014 (PDT)
::::Importance to quality is ok but I think this sandbox is too strict. We have an undercontruc warning dont we?[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:59, 29 April 2014 (PDT)
:::::Actually yea, the Site wide sandbox is the right one so you used the right sandbox. We do the Sandbox first because if a new page is created in the main space, Google indexes it pretty quickly. The next time it re-indexes is usually at a later date. For this reason new pages in the main space should be created when they are complete. Thats why we do the Sandbox first and then move it to the main space when its complete so Google indexes the complete version of the page. Also explained in the sandbox section on the help page: [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Help:Contents#Sandboxes]
:::::For this Cordova page like for any other page, you should source all statements that can be challenged by visitors. Its going to be a long project because it will have to be checked and reviewed. I would suggest you should keep it as short as possible and mention the most important points and let people go to the Wikipedia link you mentioned for additional information. Or take your time, just be sure its as good as you can make it.
:::::I wonder how a Table format would work for this page like we have here: [[List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad]]. You'd have to break out the information into: Name, Date of killing, Bio, Circumstances of Execution etc. I dont know if the Table format would be possible, or make it better or not so its just a suggestion. Maybe a good idea to just write the text for now and later convert to a table format if needed. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 16:36, 29 April 2014 (PDT)

== About Responses for "errors" ==

Hello, I'm new to WikiIslam and I made an edit to the page of "Scientific Errors in the Qur'an", yet you removed it and gave me a link for the page of responses (and thanks for that, by the way). But wouldn't it be better if the responses and claims are on the same page? (I mean that after every claim about an error, if someone wants to respond, the response is written under the claim so that all people can see the claim and response together and judge for themselves.) Currently, the reponses' page is separated from the claims' page, and it's only mentioned in the "see also" in the end, so if someone doesn't notice it (as I did), he would believe everything written there without hearing the counter-argument. I don't know if what I sent you should be sent to you, but if it shouldn't please tell me to whom I should send it to. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Nightmare140|Nightmare140]] ([[User talk:Nightmare140|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nightmare140|contribs]]) {{#if:| |}} ([[WikiIslam:Signatures#Signing_Posts|Remember to sign your comments]]) 
:This is a site which focuses on criticism of Islam so that will always be given priority. You can edit the Responses page and we're already being pretty fair by even allowing responses. As for them being on the same page, no we cant do that. That would interrupt the reading experience of people who are interesting in criticism of Islam. A responses page also gives you the freedom to make the page look like whatever you want and not have it interrupted by the other side's arguments. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:51, 15 May 2014 (PDT)

Another question (and sorry for bothering you much), when I see a page that contains wrong, misleading, or opinion-based information with no or unrelated evidence (as much info many articles I read contain), how can I report it? Or should I just edit the page?[[User:Nightmare140|Nightmare140]] ([[User talk:Nightmare140|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nightmare140|contribs]]) {{#if:| |}}
:What does this mean there are blatant hoaxes floating? Which are they? give some examples. properly written opinions derived from evidence are okay. Polemics not allowed. If there is something misleading, it may need more details and clarity as I have done in the past. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 01:27, 16 May 2014 (PDT)
::Nightmare140, keep in mind that we're a website that focuses on criticism of Islam so if you can improve an article, sure go ahead and try your edits. If they are incorrect they can be reverted. You can also make new response articles and there you have the freedom to write what you want (but it should still be appropriate and written well for example). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 16:21, 16 May 2014 (PDT)

I know that, but shouldn't criticism be based on facts and true things not on misunderstood or mistranslated things that aren't even close to errors? Moonlight said to provide examples. An example is the Grammar mistake that was claimed to be a mistake and I removed it because it's not, but then you (Axius) returned it as it was before. When a thing is controversial, not known to be a mistake or not, we can make a response page, but when there's no error at all to start with, isn't it just so misleading to keep it there? Thanks again. [[User:Nightmare140|Nightmare140]] ([[User talk:Nightmare140|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nightmare140|contribs]])
:How do we know there's a mistake there? Thats only what you claim. It has to be checked by the author or someone who is familiar with the topic before it can be changed. I added it to the tasks page so someone can check it later [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=WikiIslam:Tasks&diff=107495&oldid=107337]. This issue for that arabic word is a small issue. There are many more important things to make a response to. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 07:39, 17 May 2014 (PDT)

It's true that's only what I claim, but it's because I'm an Arab, and if you have anyone who knows Arabic Grammar I can persuade him and let him understand what I mean. And yes, of course this is a small matter with respect to other things here, and that's why I'd like to check if my little notes, responses, or edits will be applied (of course that's when I'm right) in order to start with other things that may take time. Anyway, you know, small things make a difference, and, concerning that thing with Grammar, do you know anyone in this site who knows Arabic and might be able to judge if I talk to him? I don't like to do different tasks together, just one at a time, and that's why I want to finish the task in hand at first, which is correcting this thing.
[[User:Nightmare140|Nightmare140]] ([[User talk:Nightmare140|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Nightmare140|contribs]])
:The person who wrote that article is not available at this time and I dont know if we can get in touch with him so someone else will to look into this. You can post in the [http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/ FFI forum] to see if anyone knows enough arabic. Or you can post in the [http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/ Council of ex muslims] forum and see if there's an ex-Muslim there who knows arabic. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 08:43, 17 May 2014 (PDT)

== What in silliness? ==

Why you remove the last anus one? I was going to add more :/ :/ [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 07:12, 22 May 2014 (PDT)
:I think the anus one isnt funny, because its a biological function. If you see the other hadiths, most have very obvious humor. You can add them but we'll have to see if they're funny or not. If not maybe they can be added something else. I'm a great fan of QHS and hate to see any verse/hadith being lost if there's any value in it. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:32, 22 May 2014 (PDT)
::Which ones do you want to add? This page is one of my favorites. It was just referenced here [https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20140525202509AA7FVa4]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 22:29, 25 May 2014 (PDT)

== most visited pages ==

Where do you see the most visited articles?[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 08:57, 26 May 2014 (PDT)
:You need a Google account to view the stats. If you're interested email the site email [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Contact_Us] with a Google account and I can add you there. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 10:17, 26 May 2014 (PDT)

== QHS on forbiddens ==

Let us make a QHS on everything forbidden. What will its name be? Forbade ? or Forbidden Things?[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 06:09, 31 May 2014 (PDT)
:Yea that sounds good. The name can be changed later: [[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Forbidden_Things]]. You can copy paste stuff from existing QHS pages e.g: [[Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Beauty_and_Makeup]] (some forbidden things). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 07:21, 31 May 2014 (PDT)

== for main ==

How about a selected hadith/hadith of the day or verse of day and make it rotate like Wikipedia's portals?

here's something LightYears missed[http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/moon_locus.html] [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 00:02, 7 June 2014 (PDT)
:Main page needs a redesign but currently there's no one to do that and maintain the rotation. We need more people to join and help us out. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:56, 7 June 2014 (PDT)
::Why somebody must maintain it? Rotation should be automatic. If it has to be manual, how about a weekly quote? Anyway create a template, insert it on main, then I will get the content. Or I shall do first?[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 06:38, 7 June 2014 (PDT)
::Oh, yea rotation can be done you're right. [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Template:Random_quran_quotes] I was thinking about something else. You can make a copy of the main page text and put it into a Sandbox and play with it. Hadith could be at the bottom or anywhere else. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 06:47, 7 June 2014 (PDT)
:::Go through [[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Claims of Evolution in the Qur'an|Claims of evolution.]] See if it is ready.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:30, 7 June 2014 (PDT)
::::Sorry, I dont have much time to do anything else other than maintain existing content. Taking a quick look, no its not ready. For example heading 29. And headings should be text based (descriptive), not the suah numbers (those headings are not helpful). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 11:32, 7 June 2014 (PDT)
:::::Fixed.
:::::I found tafsirs and some other narrations on seven earths and seven seas, resting on bulls and whales. Where to add it? QHS Cosmology is on the cards. How about adding it to scientific errors in hadith as well? That variety of angels in Haykal's book also deserves some QHS. But we dont have any. So a QHS on angels and jinn? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:04, 8 June 2014 (PDT)
::::::That article is probably 20% of what it can be. I doubt those are the only verses relating to evolution so it needs more work. We need more people to join and help out with this.
::::::7 earths/seas, maybe QHS geology? Add them here first: [[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Temporary_Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars_page]]. For others just do what you think is best. Add what you find to the Temp page and then we can see where they can go. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:16, 8 June 2014 (PDT)
:::::::Wow! Abu Huraira's confession there made my day. I think it must immediately go into silliness (though its not funny it will be a feather in that hat, with comments) or let it go somewhere else but not rot there. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 14:43, 9 June 2014 (PDT)
::::::::Added: [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Islamic_Silliness#Famous_Hadith_Narrator_accompanies_Prophet_only_to_get_Free_Meals]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:06, 9 June 2014 (PDT)
::::::::Let me know if you have any good ideas on how to attract more people to the site and get them involved. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:56, 9 June 2014 (PDT)
:First thing might be welcome message template for new accounts.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 07:33, 10 June 2014 (PDT)
:: Let me what changes I should make and I'll do them-> [[MediaWiki:Welcomecreation]]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:59, 10 June 2014 (PDT)
:::Link something users can start doing on the very first day. I presume they cant do the listed to-dos till they get acquainted with key policies. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 08:53, 11 June 2014 (PDT)
::::[[:Category:Articles_needing_attention]] - we have this linked on the left. I dont know what else could be done. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:32, 11 June 2014 (PDT)
:::::Essays? then link or advice Confessions.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 08:13, 13 June 2014 (PDT)
::::::What do you mean. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 03:59, 14 June 2014 (PDT)

== A curious Muslim becomes Admirer of Christ? ==

The latest confession, she calls herself someone who always seeks more knowledge. Admiring Christ is ok but did she ignore that the Bible is only marginally better than Quran? And that UFO thing was.... omg. Do you check if she's true?[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 23:58, 13 June 2014 (PDT)
:No I havent read it, I was just deleted some extra text there. Thats a problem with these testimonies (that sometimes there's no way to see if they are really fake or not - no way to verify), hence the disclaimer at the top. Most testimonies are ok. For this one the UFO bit is unusual and indeed most former Muslims become atheists and agnostics and dont convert to another religion. I found that out when I did some statistics for the stories we have and only 10% of them were Christians, 50% were atheists and agnostics combined. Not sure what to do about it, to keep it or delete it and I havent read it fully yet. I check these pages later together at the same time. It sure is strange (the UFO thing) and the fact that she looked at the Quran in detail but did not look at the Bible in the same way. That does suggest its fake but then we cant really be sure. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 03:57, 14 June 2014 (PDT)
::I admit its eerie to suspect - like, somebody is desparate to fool us but they afford a frequency of only two confessions per week (or lesser) and they keep changing to international IPs.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:18, 14 June 2014 (PDT)
:::The bible thing, she may have noticed but preferred not to mention and forced herself to believe it. I wont be surprised if future Christians are the same, they cant get any better. She is right to say that Jesus existed . No need to delete it i think.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 13:43, 14 June 2014 (PDT)
::::Was there a different submission with another IP? People have submitted duplicate stories in the past and sometimes (but rarely) they are fake. I respect different faiths because we have had editors from all backgrounds. Anyway I still have to review that page and will do when there's a number of testimonies to review. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 19:07, 14 June 2014 (PDT)

What is left to review? I checked all the histories of so many places. There was no monotheism or anything similar to Islam taught anywhere outside Middle east and nearby areas.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 07:39, 18 June 2014 (PDT)
:Are you talking about Scientific errors? That article is under review and you've made too many questionable additions in the past to that page so they always need a review which I dont have time/energy to do right now. Dont let this slow you down though, just keep adding everything you see to the temp pages.
:Also use this template for welcoming users: [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Template:New_Member], so you just need to do this and save the page: <nowiki>{{</nowiki>subst:New Member}} --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 17:02, 18 June 2014 (PDT)
::Currently the universe from smoke verse (41:11) is inside another section "earth created before stars". It seems to fit there but we need separate section or sub-section to expand there, then we link the smoke article. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 07:44, 21 June 2014 (PDT)
:::Which article and section? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 12:55, 21 June 2014 (PDT)
:::: [[Scientific Errors in the Qur'an#Earth Created before Stars]] [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 06:05, 22 June 2014 (PDT)
:::::Ok yea I see now, yea you're right. The Smoke article is not linked anywhere on that Errors page. There can be a new section in Astrology[http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur%27an#Astronomy] called "Creation of Universe from Smoke" etc, the smoke verse can be repeated in that new section and the smoke article [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Quran_and_a_Universe_from_Smoke] can be linked there after a brief discussion like for the others. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 08:09, 22 June 2014 (PDT)
::::::Hold on, i noticed more; right above this verse is its contradiction (earth and heavens were one piece and then got seperated). This may also need a section, because no such event took place hence it is in error. But the common error is "earth is old as rest of universe." So do you really want a repeat of both the verses to push in more discussion? How 2 subsections to the existing section "Earth created before stars"? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 09:45, 22 June 2014 (PDT)
:::::::Do whatever you think is best but be sure to add stuff to your Sandbox pages for now (as per my recent note). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 19:55, 22 June 2014 (PDT)

== Regarding your request for a cite.. ==

I have replied to your question at [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Talk:Muslim_Statistics#Source_needed_.28regarding_literacy_rates_shown_for_various_Muslim_countries.29 Muslim Statistics Talk] Thanks, [[User:Scottperry|Scottperry]] ([[User talk:Scottperry|talk]]) 20:49, 22 June 2014 (PDT)

:Hi Axius,
:Thank you for offering to look at the cite I gave. I think you will probably agree that it is a suitable cite. I have been a fairly active editor on the Wikipedia site, and so long as I would not be wasting my time, I would be happy to properly add that information to both the statistical summary page, and to the educational detail page, in a format which would match Wikiislam's current formatting. I know this will take a little bit of doing, but I would be willing to do it.
:I don't know what the overall guiding principles are on this site, however I consider myself to be somewhat "pro-Islamic" despite the fact that I am a Christian. I see this site as having the potential of assisting Islam with it's very-much-needed reforms. Lord knows, Christendom has had its lunatic leaders over the centuries too (along with its pragmatists and true saints).
:My question for you is: If I insert certain types of duly-documented "quasi-positive information" about Islam as I attempted to do here, will I find a structural bias in WikiIslam against such edits? Or not? Thanks, [[User:Scottperry|Scottperry]] ([[User talk:Scottperry|talk]]) 13:50, 23 June 2014 (PDT)
::First you could decide if this is a site you want to work on because from your other message it looks like you may not want to stay but have a good look around first. Click on any of the Core articles e.g. [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Pedophilia]. Note that all/most of the information is sourced to Islam's own sources. Islam's reform can only happen if people decide to abandon the religion. The only other reform that can happen is if all the Islamic scholars or even Muslims formed a group and said that certain Quranic verses are invalid (this we know will never happen). People abandoning Islam altogether is the only thing that is possible and that is being done at a gradual pace which will speed up with time. The other option is for Muslims to not really see or believe the spirit of Quran and hadith and be moderate Muslims, but that is because they disagree with some aspects of Islam yet do not want to leave it and apostatize. "Islam can be reformed" is not a statement that makes sense to me but I'm not going to take part in long debates about it. Our site is what it is. We cite Islam's own sources and focus on criticism of Islam.
::What do you mean by 'duly-documented "quasi-positive information"'? You could do a few edits and give some examples.
::Why are you pro-Islamic to any degree at all? Are you aware that according to Quran 48:13 you'll burn in Hell since you (like me) refuse to convert to Islam?
::Also feel free to combine the main page messages where you started a discussion so it can be kept on one page. Also note that these opinions are only mine and do not reflect the opinions of the site but I can confirm that the site focuses on the criticsm of Islam. Most other opinions I mentioned will vary from person to person as there are all kinds of different approaches to criticism of Islam. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:26, 23 June 2014 (PDT)

==Abu Dawud book numbers==
Are you aware of the discrepancies in numbering Sunan Abu Dawud's books? I was checking for Hot Baths (Kitab Al-Hammam). All of the following give different numbers [http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/031-sat.php] [http://sunnah.com/abudawud] [http://hadithcollection.com/abudawud.html]. We stick to CMJE which has incomplete Abu Dawud rather. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 01:41, 27 June 2014 (PDT)
:??
::Sorry I forgot to reply. Yea numbering systems are different for the CMJE website and Sunnah.com. Not sure what to do but if you find a hadith on CMJE, use that. If not, use Sunnah.com. How about that?

[http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/faithfreedom-wikiislam/quran-describes-gender-determination-sperm-5549 Gender determination by sperm] is the only Science article to which there is an apologist. But there is no response worth improving our article. He made said "Unlike quran, the Egyptian source does not claim the two Gods were male and female." Are readers foolish not to google them both or go all the way upto scholarly sources? Then he claims it was not possible to mention "ovum" in the 7th century. So why cant Allah mention in crude words as he mentioned sperm/semen? (most miracles are found in crude words btw) The repeated omission of female cell from all verses of man created from nutfah is undoubtedly an error. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 14:46, 29 June 2014 (PDT)
:Good that you found that link. I think we should keep a list of such websites/links so we are aware of them and we can use them at some point to further improve our articles. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:25, 29 June 2014 (PDT)

==QHS additions==
You have time to check them, don't you. I want to add n shift some. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:11, 1 July 2014 (PDT)
:If its just quotes yea, its easier to review so go ahead. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:04, 1 July 2014 (PDT)
::One super scientific error I just spotted. [http://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/32] Vol. 4, Book 6, Hadith 2143. Its about mange, a skin disease which affects dogs and other animals causing hair loss. Some types of it spread from one animal to another, some dont. But he claims that there is no such thing as spread of any diseases. He gave all his ideas within this hadith. I am for adding it straightaway. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 07:43, 2 July 2014 (PDT)
::::Sounds good. Indeed "one thing does not infect the other" is a scientific error. Here's the permanent link [http://sunnah.com/urn/674460] for that one. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 09:49, 2 July 2014 (PDT)

==Shia/Sufi==
We have very few contents on Shi ism and Sufism. Mention it in tasks? eg. "Creating articles or providing sources on which artciles can be written." There must be losts of Sufi sources. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:31, 3 July 2014 (PDT)
:Sure thats fine. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:59, 3 July 2014 (PDT)
::Any specifics on the task [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=WikiIslam%3ATasks&diff=108112&oldid=107996] so it relates to criticism of Islam? Or are you thinking about general information/introduction to Shia/Sunnis. etc? Any additional definition for the task helps. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:43, 4 July 2014 (PDT)
:::Ya mainly criticism. Because I see Sufism is an innovation by each of its saints. Of course, they taught good things. But they appear silent on the literal verses of Qur'an and on Muhammad, Ali etc. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 08:27, 5 July 2014 (PDT)
:::Hmmm...I am just browsing a book [http://sacred-texts.com/isl/egt/index.htm "THE ENCLOSED GARDEN OF THE TRUTH"] by Hakim Abu l Majd. This is why one gets angry easily on Sufis, they have set up lots of imaginations on Allah. I heard they have their own cosmology. Will find it soon. I am adding another link of readable books. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 08:38, 5 July 2014 (PDT)
::::Sounds good I agree with all of that. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 08:56, 5 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::Only Muslim critics? Is there no place for secular/Western critics? I am yet to see any. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:34, 5 July 2014 (PDT)
::::::Sure thats fine. I'll edit that. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 11:42, 5 July 2014 (PDT)

==Forbiddens Done==
Could be expanded to at least 100 things if we keep adding fatwas but I think you should make it. Some cite formats need attention. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:37, 4 July 2014 (PDT)
:Google for [https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=quran%20forbidden%20things&safe=off Quran forbidden things] brings up some links for example [http://www.progressive-muslim.org/A-list-of-haram-as-per-the-Quran.htm]. Anything useful relating to criticism of Islam that can be used? Or this [http://orbala.blogspot.com/2012/05/things-that-are-forbidden-in-islam.html haraam list].
:I'll look at it when I have time (its probably going to take a long time). There's no hurry for this so keep adding Fatwas or other stuff if its interesting. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 12:54, 4 July 2014 (PDT)
::I dont want to repeat the silliness hadiths here. Then there are forbiddens in almost every QHS. The fatwas are too long. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:06, 12 July 2014 (PDT)
:::Repetitions are ok and there's not too many of them, just a few. How about the search for "forbade" on sunnah.com ? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:01, 12 July 2014 (PDT)
::::Later. In the claims of evolution article, I have probably no more claims. What other sites do is including the heavens/earth and mountain verses in their evolution articles. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 15:07, 12 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::You missed the above one? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 09:37, 15 July 2014 (PDT) Giving the link [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Sandbox/Claims_of_Evolution_in_the_Qur%27an]
::::::Oh ok. Thats a great article. I really wish I had the time and energy to go through it and finalize it but right now it will have to wait. We really need to find someone to help us out. One idea is for you to go to ex-Muslim forums (for example [http://www.councilofexmuslims.com]) and introduce yourself briefly and ask if anyone would be willing to help you with this article and expand it. What do you think?
::::::It is definitely not ready for the public yet. For example I saw a spelling error (traanslator) but other than this, the more important thing is to make sure we've not missed anything. Have you searched around and seen what other critics of Islam have said about the topic? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:31, 15 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::::The link you gave has devout atheists. I dont want it. I will think of something else. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 08:46, 16 July 2014 (PDT)
::::::::I myself can easily quality for that label as I dont have any beliefs but that should not effect the work that is done on this site. We have had editors from all backgrounds with a common purpose and their forum has people from all backgrounds as well. But ok yea you can get help from any place that you're comfortable with (its up to you). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 09:04, 16 July 2014 (PDT)

== Websites Censored by Islamic Governments==
Is it upated and does it mean blogs are not banned? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 23:36, 5 July 2014 (PDT)
:Nope, its an incomplete list. I guess we should include a note at the top. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 06:35, 6 July 2014 (PDT)

== Hi ==

I sent you the wrong testimony, that was my old one and I will upload the new one which is longer and more detailed. Thanks
:Ok. Thanks for getting a username. You can now click on my contributions at the top left and you'll find the testimony that you can directly edit on the site (instead of a copy paste which required re-formatting the whole submission).

:After you confirm that you'll directly edit the one we have, I can start to finalize it and publish it on the site so let me know your plans. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:40, 8 July 2014 (PDT)

== [[w:1001 Inventions]]? ==

EU leaders stooped to this level to strip their own civilization of all its credit? Which way should our invention articles go now? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 13:09, 12 July 2014 (PDT)
:All we can do is add to the to-do list and investigate and refute those inventions in a new article series. Something about it in the conclusion here. [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/How_Islamic_Inventors_Did_Not_Change_The_World#Conclusion]--[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:32, 12 July 2014 (PDT)
::Ok add it to tasks. Also add that we need translations of every article into languages that users know. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 01:56, 13 July 2014 (PDT)
:::Ok done. Translation task is on the Translation page. [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Translations]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:40, 13 July 2014 (PDT)
::::Aint it better to link it in the tasks? I think you should put more in the candidates for translation [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 06:57, 13 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::Linked in tasks already: [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Tasks#Translations]
:::::More candidates, sure, but we need to make good choices (well sourced, nicely written, complete etc). Other than the ones linked, most of the remaining articles qualify equally. But let me know if you see any that are important enough. The current list is small so it doesn't look too scary. I'm fine with adding to it if there are any good additions we can make. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 07:03, 13 July 2014 (PDT)
::::::Are the 1001 inv listed or shown anywhere? Whats the direct link? We need to link to specific places where these things are found (otherwise the task should be removed as its not "actionable".)--[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 08:03, 13 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::::I got a preview. [http://www.4shared.com/web/preview/doc/rbj157DU] I did not count them but chapters are 7. The number is not imp. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 08:47, 13 July 2014 (PDT)
::::::::Ok well, I guess whatever can be done then. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 09:36, 13 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::::::Sugestions to translate are Farsideology, some QHSes, Scientific Errors in Hadith (could be expanded). [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:11, 13 July 2014 (PDT)
::::::::::Farsideology is great humor (one of my favourite series of pages) but its not suited for translation. We dont get much traffic on it. It has to be something which is useful in debate and entertaining the person who is already critical of Islam is not a priority so all those reasons together say its not a good candidate for translation. QHS would be great but there's so much. I'll still add it though. Scientific errors in hadith when we are sure its complete. There are enough translation candidates for now and even those havent been translated yet. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:58, 13 July 2014 (PDT)

== [[Scientific Errors in the Qur'an]] to update ==

#'''Earth Created before Stars''' Verses are already there. So I just have to add sub-sections, more text and link to the smoke article. There is nothing to verify I think. All done in my sandbox.
#From above. Sura 41:9-12 contains the whole story of creation: earth in 2 days/periods. Mountains and things sustaining us (plants etc) in 4 days, seven heavens and stars in (or after) 2 days. All of these are to be added in various sections.
#'''Hail Comes from Mountains in the Sky''' At least 3 tafsirs agree that there are mountains in heaven. Even the alternate meaning by Ibn Kathir is that ice in clouds comes from existing mountains on the ground.
#'''Solomon and Ants''' Need to extend the verse upto Solomons comment. Maybe link the Jewish tales article.
#'''Noah's Ark holds Every Species''' To explain more that two animals of each species can't help the species survive. Their kids will have incest and die out.
#'''Pharaoh or Pharaohs''' Confused. There are 5 or 6 candidates for this pharaoh. I checked them and saw no evidence of anyone drowning and then his body taken out of the sea. The entire Moses-Exodus story may not be a hoax, but the Bible is claimed to have exaggerations and this may be no different. There is a miracle article on it but it is not so complete.
#'''Non-Existent Mosque in Jerusalem''' Needs an article or at least link to AI/FFI.
#Few prose corrections left, like directly saying Muhammad wrote so-and-so verse.
We should soon have the review notice gone. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 07:35, 20 July 2014 (PDT)
:Ok. I'll work with you for this article (since its pretty important and high traffic). The above list wont probably get the review notice removed (we need to review the whole page for that) but at least it will improve the page.
:You can make the edits for improvement directly (just dont add any new errors, those should be done on the temp page). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 09:32, 20 July 2014 (PDT)
::Half done. Now verify my sandbox for the earth/heavens. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:40, 20 July 2014 (PDT)
:::Earth/Heavens - are these new or existing errors? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:07, 20 July 2014 (PDT)
::::Existing in the Earth created before stars section. But detail is less. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 13:21, 20 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::Ok. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:32, 20 July 2014 (PDT)
::::::Can you add them to the main Error page and lets see how it looks. [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Saggy/Sandbox_-_Issues_with_Quran_and_Hadith sandbox], [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur%27an error page] --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:07, 20 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::::Also looking at this one [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur%27an&diff=107852&oldid=107846]. Seems to be more of a historical error I think? For that another page could be made for historical errors. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:31, 20 July 2014 (PDT)
::::::::earth/universe done. Changed to Pickthall translation. Yusuf ali writes like a metaphor and tries to hide a part of the error by avoiding the word "Then." I used all the wp links to ensure the info is correct. Or you need to cite? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 13:28, 21 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::::::Ok I'll check. Going to take some time. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:51, 21 July 2014 (PDT)
::::::::::I know four historical errors that are currently not added and the total becomes about 15. Not so much of a seperate article. Tales are somewhat historical and I see no reason for repeating them in new article. History is a Science anyway. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 08:43, 22 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::::::::Have you searched Google to make sure these are the only historical errors? Nope, historical errors are not scientific errors. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 10:00, 22 July 2014 (PDT)
::::::::::::Yes thats it. Though other sites list more errors like Abraham and Haman , they are assuming the Bible is 100% accurate and then saying its history got contradicted. We already have an article where Quran confirms Bible's message instead of calling it corrupted. So we will have a Quran-Bible comparison if its not there. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:25, 22 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::::::::::Yes the bible cant be used as a way to check what is accurate historically. We would use historians and other sources. Ok well lets see what happens. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 July 2014 (PDT)
::::::::::::::To clarify historical/scientific: Historical error means that something did not happen in the past, or happened at the wrong time or some other wrong information which has to do with history (what happened and when). Scientific error has to do with science, not necessarily timing or historical information. I'm pretty sure there are more historical errors (true errors compared with historians). Anyway its going to take some time for me to check the changes. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:45, 22 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::::::::::::You posted three msgs yesterday. Is'nt this enough of time to check one or two errors
::::::::::::::::Ok. Phew, I have checked that that now. I checked all the new additions and I think they are fine except for Inbreeding [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur%27an&diff=108347&oldid=108322]. This theory is refuted by some people (see [https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&hs=J65&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&q=noah%27s+ark+inbreeding]) so it needs a response or some way to deal with it. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:45, 23 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::::::::::::::[http://www.icr.org/article/resource-for-answering-critics-noahs-ark/ ICR] Its claim of "the inbreeding inherent in the initially small populations need not have posed any problem" is right in some cases but two is too small a number. So it says that not every species must have been on Ark. The verse has each, all, or every [http://islamawakened.com/quran/11/40/default.htm]. then it claims that some species may have evolved only after the flood. Lets assume this happens, then such rapid evloution cant be from a unicellular into a mammal/bird/reptile, can it ? We have evidence of when each phylum of animals evolved. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 13:58, 24 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::::::::::::::Other google hits are not refutations. [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/woodmorappe-review.html feasiblity study of the Ark]: "Noah was engaged in modern breeding ... (p. 194). If hibernation was a desirable trait, Noah was able to breed strains of animals which were more likely to hibernate. He was able to acclimatize reptiles to the temperatures they would find on the ark ( p. 124) and breed a pair of Koalas who would accept dried Eucalyptus leaves." I strongly demand that in future we must have such a Noah doing this service to the ruined ecosystems. But none of it is true as of Biblical era. Bears and Marsupials appeared after the end of dinosaurs(65 mn years ago) and evolveed till last few mn years. Reptiles are older. The link itself calls such a story "ad hoc". [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 14:32, 24 July 2014 (PDT)
(reset) The text I [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur%27an&diff=108347&oldid=108322 removed] is the only text that I'm talking about. The additional stuff you mentioned is most likely good (evolution of species, hibernation etc) and can be used for another article or error. For now lets only talk about the text that you saved on that page.

In the text I removed you said that humans would die out. We cant say that would definitely happen. The best and most we can say is "inbreeding" would not be healthy and would most likely result in health/genetic issues/disorders (etc). We know there is strong medical proof for that ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding Wikipedia's article] has proof that is easy to see) and so I can agree with that addition. We cannot insert any statements or text on this errors page which can be challenged or refuted. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:42, 24 July 2014 (PDT)
:Lets see. What are you creating on scientists? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 04:34, 25 July 2014 (PDT)
::Someone who I've talked to before by email wanted to make a page on that so I got them started. Their username is Alfred Russell and he just registered it. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 04:38, 25 July 2014 (PDT)
:::By the way the problem with the concept of Noah's ark as presented in Islam can have a page on its own. There we can quote the Quran and any hadith and talk about it (things you mentioned, evolution, species, inbreeding etc). Just like how we deal with evolution and Islam. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:30, 25 July 2014 (PDT)

Hi guys, so far I missed reference to the fact Muhammad does away with the leap year 9:37. Arabs added a month every so many years to synchronize the sun and moon calendar. So Muhammad does not know more about the sky and earth than one picks up at local market places but understands even less of it. Because of this omission the Ramadan is every year 10 to 11 days earlier, and Muslims need one calendar for agriculture and one for Ramadan.

:I read the link. So the old Arab calendar was replaced by a strict lunar calendar hence there is shortfall of 10 or 11 days from the 365-day year. Now can you clarify the error you found? Are you saying that a leap year situation should have been considered? And when, while creating this lunar calendar? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 02:39, 21 August 2014 (PDT)

Hi, My point is that Muhammad does not understand what it is for, and now the Muslims have to use two calendars, one for Ramadan (the lunar calendar imposed by Muhammad) and one for agriculture ( the solar calendar).
Quote from PDF:Calendars are basically of two types: lunar or non-lunar. Lunar calendars have months based on the cycle of the phases of the moon (the synodic month, ca. 29.53 days). Twelve lunar months will total an average of about 354 days and are thus roughly 11 days shorter than the true solar (tropical or sidereal) year of 365.2422 days. Most of the nations of the ancient world used lunisolar calendars, where the difference between the lunar and the solar year is compensated by periodically intercalating a thirteenth month. Non-lunar calendars are based on notional "months" with a fixed number of days and make no attempt to keep pace with the phases of the moon.
Link: https://cmes.uchicago.edu/sites/cmes.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/Middle%20Eastern%20Calendars.pdf --[[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]]) 22:31, 21 August 2014 (PDT)

== Blank testimonies ==

At least people give their country details, age and religion. May be they dont want to reveal their story out of privacy concern. (the latest girls IP is correct but I dont know how this site works in Saudi arabia) Have you considered redirecting these cases to the list of apostates? I think its of some importance to keep record of the blanks. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 04:11, 27 July 2014 (PDT)
:I like that empty data too and in the past we used to keep that data in another table. Sahab said it shouldn't be there so we got rid of it. I forgot what reasoning he gave. Now if we do include it we can probably move the table to another page later on and for now we can keep it? What do you think. I can try to get the old data so its not a blank start. Lets see. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 04:55, 27 July 2014 (PDT)
::For now keep the names in a sandbox table. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 05:10, 27 July 2014 (PDT)
::Ohh we should find out the reason why he rejected it. It must be somewhere in the talk pages? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 05:11, 27 July 2014 (PDT)
:::Ok. I'll try to to find it. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 06:09, 27 July 2014 (PDT)
::::Whcih side is the new editor on? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 06:16, 27 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::Not sure. We can try Google translate later on and also use his talk page after that. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 07:15, 27 July 2014 (PDT)
::::::The reason was discussed off-wiki I think. It was probably "there's no information that can be gotten from that table and it doesnt tell the reader much". I restored the ones that were deleted. This doesnt include those which were received after Oct 2012 and now/ Those can be found but its not that important for me right now. Should be fine to just have that table for now.--[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 08:01, 27 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::::Skeptics may reject it faster than the detailed testimonies. but A quick view helps the reader to learn about few trends. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:05, 27 July 2014 (PDT)
::::::::Yea thats true. We can make a note at the top of that page that this list is just meant to give a quick review or for trends, etc. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 20:02, 27 July 2014 (PDT)
{{Outdent|8}}To Saggy: The reason why I was against those types of "testimonies" was because it takes zero amount of effort to fake, has little value for the purpose of Islam-criticism, and could result in the site getting egg on its face. I've caught a crapload of atheists submitting fake full testimonies and Axius has caught several Hindus doing the same. If submitting fake full testimonies is attractive to some, how much more would this be? A Muslim could do it easily if they wanted to, and that would end up putting all of our genuine testimonies in doubt (at least in the minds of Muslims who may be considering leaving). Personally, I don't think it's worth the risk. I haven't looked around the site much, but I think there may have been a few rule reversals since the few short months I have been gone. Considering all of the hard work and thought I have put behind everything, I think it is a complete shame, so I have no problem with answering any queries you may have. At least until I finish the attribution thing. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 04:39, 31 July 2014 (PDT)

== [[The_Quran_and_Mountains]] ==

There are two pieces to add: Bible also claims mountains have roots. And one quote of the whale holding earth and shaking it, hence mountains were inserted. Sandbox again? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:07, 29 July 2014 (PDT)
:In the past we have refrained from commenting on other books for the reason that it might make believers of other religions upset (this could include potential editors and viewers). However I've always felt that if we did include things like that, it would be an overall benefit from the perspective of someone who is thinking about leaving Islam. How about if we leave it out just to be safe? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:06, 29 July 2014 (PDT)

I think only some (not all) Christians think the Bible has miracles. Here are the verses:

Job 28:9 : People assault the flinty rock with their hands and lay bare the roots of the mountains.

Psalm 18:7 : The earth trembled and quaked, and the foundations of the mountains shook; they trembled because he was angry.

Jonah 2:6 : To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever. But you, LORD my God, brought my life up from the pit.

The point is that if there is anything miraculous (which is not the intent of the authors), the credit must go to the Bible. This is not adding up to a criticism of Bible, or is it? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 07:44, 30 July 2014 (PDT)
:Yea. I think this is the right thing to do. If its related to criticism of Islam it should be there. But these verses dont sound very clear. For example the Quran verses are clear and they say the mountains are there to prevent Earth from shaking [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Quran_and_Mountains#Relevant_Verses_and_Terms]. If its a verse that only says the mountains have roots, it doesnt imply its going to prevent Earth from shaking. I see where you got them from, here [http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/vargo/mountains_pegs.html]
:"And one quote of the whale holding earth and shaking it, hence mountains were inserted." - which quote is that? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 11:05, 30 July 2014 (PDT)

::Not being hostile to any religion or world view and focusing only on Islam is an integral part of this site's identity, and one of several things that have led to the success of this site. It is linked to by Christians, Hindus, and to a lesser degree, atheists, LGBT and many other people-groups. I spent a lot of time cultivating this harmonious image through networking with sites like Answering Islam and engaging with atheists, the online gay community etc., so does anyone really want to endanger that? Criticizing the Bible/Christians/any religion would help people leave a totally different religion? What about the massive block of readers/fans who will no longer feel comfortable with recommending/linking the site? I have no authority over what is posted here now, but you are well aware that there is a reason for everything I have ever done on this site and every rule that I have implemented. I myself was a Christian for a few years after leaving Islam. Although agnostic now, I have nothing but positive experiences with Christians since leaving their religion. Do you think I would have wanted anything to do with this site if it was hostile to them or their beliefs? There is no other Islam-critical site on the net that has such a diverse readership. That is one of the reasons why. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 04:10, 31 July 2014 (PDT)
:::Still an on-going discussion and we know Quran borrows a lot from other books and sources so a light mention of that can be made without being too critical and that wont look hostile. Of relevance is the fact that 50% of all testimony submissions for this site are atheists/agnostics (and you're one of them now yourself) with Christians being 10% and that the fastest growing group in the USA and other places is non-religious and a 1/3rd of all adults in the US are non-religious. You can see the general direction that the world is going in with regards to religion plus if its relevant for criticism of Islam a passing mention can be made. Answering-Islam gives us just a few views a day. We get most of our hits from search engines. So all of this considered we'll see how it goes. As of yet I'm not seeing why the verses should be mentioned because they don't say what the Quran has said. There's other ways for example just linking to another site for more information. We'll see. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 04:39, 31 July 2014 (PDT)
::::Yeah, I'm aware that this thread is on-going and did not mean to suggest otherwise. Western trends maybe, but that's probably not a worldwide thing or would not be valid if you analyzed non-western or white countries separately (Christianity is growing fast in Asia/Africa, and even Islam is growing fast in former Communist countries like China/Russia). It is a universal audience (not Euro/white-centric audience) that we are (or at least were) targeting. There may not be many views directly from Answering Islam, but I can guarantee that Christians and Hindus outnumber atheist readers by a long shot. Most of our critics (excluding Muslims) are atheist. Very rarely are we criticized by Christians or Hindus. BTW I'm not making judgments on Saggy's suggestion, just the general situation. This is supposed to be an Islam-critical site, not an Islam-critical atheist site. If that was the case, shouldn't theists be told as soon as they join? All over the FAQ and related pages, there is talk of how this is a non-partisan site. There has been a couple of times you have flip-floped over this issue when new editors have brought it up. I think there should be a decisive decision made so theists are not used and do not feel cheated.[[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 04:46, 31 July 2014 (PDT)

:::::You mentioned testimonies, so I should also add that most of the fake testimonies we've spotted have been submitted by atheists. I remember I spotted 5 or six clearly written by the same person within the space of a few weeks. We discussed this off site and I think those testimonies were never removed. That was a few years ago, and for the past year or so I've given up pointing out fakes or caring about any fakes I see submitted. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]])
:::::: The intent is not to cheat anyone but to make a better decision for the site. As far as I can see there are no fake testimonies right now. Most fake ones that we've gotten are hinduism related. Nothing to discuss at this point because we dont even know what's going to be added so we'll have to wait.--[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:38, 31 July 2014 (PDT)
:::::::Okay. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 05:53, 31 July 2014 (PDT)

== Translations ==

They look most important to me now that there is not much to do in science. But i dont know any langs. Do you know any online translator which constructs proper sentences? google is not good for sentences longer than six or seven words.

Otherwise i think we should start average quality translations. Whoever reads them if he knows the language willdo the cleanup. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:42, 2 August 2014 (PDT)
:There's a lot to do in science like refuting existing Muslim responses, cleaning up the Science error article and getting rid of the header template. Nope there's no online translator that can do a good job like a human translator. What you say is a good idea and we could put a note on the top saying "This is a machine translation. Please help us complete it" but it might also not look good so I'm undecided. Probably best to wait for a human translator to come up. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 16:41, 2 August 2014 (PDT)
::Refuting existing Muslim responses? I search them and they write long articles but they dont refute anything. Most of it is embryology, sunset, universe and creation which we have done almost entirely. eg. [http://quranscientificerror.blogspot.in/] [http://www.answering-christianity.com/mahir/scientific_errors_rebuttal.htm] [http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_claims_of_scientific_errors_being_present_in_islamic_teachings] The second has probably something for QHS. Two articles of inheritance laws and sex of worker ant are yet to create. Tell if you have found any recent apologist. i will see the main errors article again.
::"This is a machine translation. You can help WikiIslam by improving its prose (or its something else)" will be better. Or any apologist site will write refutations that blame the improper traslation? Then link it to the English one. Waiting for human translators will take too long, might be several years for a few languages. the quantity of French articles is just ok, Arabic, Indonesian, Bengali, Urdu and Turkish is very poor. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 07:03, 3 August 2014 (PDT)
:::Ummm I dont know. I'll think about it. Give me a few days. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 07:35, 3 August 2014 (PDT)
::::Just giving my 2 cents (take it or leave it, I'm not saying it with any kind of authority): I think machine translations are a very bad idea. They are way below average status. Some sentences are so incomprehensible they seem to say the opposite of what the original language said. Besides, the idea is a little redundant considering if someone wanted to read a machine translation, all they have to do is install a Chrome plugin (I have one on right now so the RU site displays in English). And of course there is Google Translate which everyone and their mother uses. The idea sounds silly and unprofessional to me (I'm not aware of any decent site that does this), and experience tells us that expecting others to do clean up is unrealistic. It just simply wouldn't happen. Even if some anonymous users did make a few changes here and there to clean it up, you'd have no idea what they're actually doing because chances are you wouldn't have a trusted user who could read that particular language. It could get real messy. It also leaves the RU site with its admin and editors more than a little redundant (if you're going to machine translate, why not translate all 2,700 articles into every language including Russian?). Yeah it will take a while but as that old Guinness ad says, "good things come to those who wait." The English material on this site took years to build up. In the process we deleted hundreds of articles. This may have put WikiIslam back a few years in regards to the amount of content it has, but it was worth it to keep standards high. The same could be said about translations in a few years. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 07:37, 3 August 2014 (PDT)
::::::Redundancy is not good. But there's hardly any traffic from the EU countries (Esp. France and its French neighbors). They may not even know this site exists. Let us focus on such cases. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:04, 3 August 2014 (PDT)
:::::::Traffic shouldn't be of concern to anyone when it comes to decisions concerning content. It's quality of material that matters. Traffic will always follow quality material. There is no emergency concerning traffic from EU countries that necessitates the need for WikiIslam to artificially attract views with material authored by Google Translate. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 11:16, 3 August 2014 (PDT)
::::::::Saggy, I'm going to go with what Sahab says. France is actually #8 for locations so there's good enough traffic from there. I dont even have a Translation plugin in Chrome and it still gives me prompts to translate when its a different language. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 11:32, 3 August 2014 (PDT)
:::::::::How to get the plugin? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:31, 3 August 2014 (PDT)
::::::::::I Dont have the plugin and it still gives the prompt. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:59, 3 August 2014 (PDT)

== Links to translations ==

Hi Ax. I noticed [[Le 72 vergini]] was not linked to its language [[Articoli_in_Italiano_-_Articles_in_Italian|hub page]]. I also did the "See Also" section in a certain way. If you look [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Le_72_vergini&diff=108830&oldid=107417 here], the first entry on a translation's "See Also" section is its corresponding hub page (this way non-English speaking readers can easily find all articles in their preferred language. After that we have the English links (mainly to encourage them to translate them for us). This is then followed by the languages template. But notice how the other language names must be in ''their'' language. For example the link to the Azerbaijani version should have been titled "azero" (meaning "Azerbaijani" in Italian). Otherwise it would be odd. An Italian speaker who also speaks Azerbaijani but does not understand English, may miss it. When I was active, adding that stuff at the end was like second nature to me, but maybe you should add some sort of additional guide for translator/editors concerning this? Or you could do it differently if you want. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 12:01, 2 August 2014 (PDT)
:Yea I agree. I didnt do a complete job of finalizing it. Thanks for correcting that. Its up to you if you want to add that additional guide. We can ask them to translate anything like this in their language and make the links from there ourselves when finalzing:
::''A version of this page is also available in the following languages: Azerbaijani, Czech, German, Turkish, Italian. For additional languages, see the sidebar on the left.''
: Something like that? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 16:37, 2 August 2014 (PDT)

== Re: Scientific Errors ==

The quickest task I spotted is an external link for the non-existent mosque in Jerusalem (Will propose its own article later). Tell me which link to add, or more than one link. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:56, 4 August 2014 (PDT)
:Not sure what you mean to say. Can you add it to your Sandbox and then show it? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:36, 4 August 2014 (PDT)

More obvious errors are [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Saggy/Sandbox_-_Issues_with_Quran_and_Hadith#Fruits_are_in_pairs] Both are supported by Tafsirs. yusuf ali and his commentary twisted them. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:38, 4 August 2014 (PDT)
:Is it an existing or new error? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:36, 4 August 2014 (PDT)
::They are new. but the Fruits in pairs error is partly like existing error "All living things are made in pairs." Shadows prostrate is similar to existing error "The cause of shadows." I added the Jerusalem mosque under existing errors in my sandbox. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 03:58, 5 August 2014 (PDT)
:::For fruits, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_reproductive_morphology] which I found after some research some flowers are male and female. A forum post [http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/72242-are-fruits-vegetables-genderless/]. The rebuttal could be that some fruits come flowers and some of them are male/female. Any response to that? This article has a long way to go before being finalized. If there's partial truth to what was said then its not a strong error. My opinion is that things like this were plagiarized from other sources/books (like [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Quran_and_Semen_Production semen] origination stuff). So it can be an issue but we have to think about it thoroughly before adding it there. Its still nice to have it on the record for further study so thats good that you saw it. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 18:46, 6 August 2014 (PDT)
::::I saw both links. good to know. but the verse has erred with the word "all/every". See all of them-[http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/3/default.htm] 3 Major translators seem to say that fruits are male and female. Some less reliable translators agree (They are obviously wrong) and rest of translators claim that this male or female emerges from fruits. but different plants are a combination of many sexes in the WP link you gave. See [http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/sexy_fruits.html this] It also explains that a specific pair is not possible, much less a pair for all plants. i l l use both links and possibly more later. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:07, 7 August 2014 (PDT)
:::::Ok. I guess this is a new error then. Could you keep this one in your Sandbox for now since we're not adding any new errors to that page. You can add supporting links like the one you added from Answering-Islam. Any supporting evidence of any of these errors is good. Give me some time to look at the others. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 20:17, 8 August 2014 (PDT)
::::::I will finalise it in sandbox.<s> also I am making changes in QHS template. Its last section is looking too broad. </s>[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 08:27, 10 August 2014 (PDT)
:::::::I completed it. Other new errors require less comments than this, so they are also complete. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:29, 13 August 2014 (PDT)
::::::::First I want to say that I want you contributing on the site and you're a valued member in spite of the difficulties in reviewing your edits. Anyone who wants to improve this site should have the opportunity to do so and considering the low amount of active editors we have, even the few we get are valued even more. Second, I have just become even busier than before so I am forced to go into a very minimum maintenance mode especially for your edits and even others (if we get any from other users who may be new and they need reviews). I am not able to review any edits of any user as of now unless they are simply QHS quotes or other simple things like that (insertions into [[Statistics]] for example). I am currently not able to review any Quran error edits unless they are existing errors and even those I will need a lot of time to review (months, or even more - I'm not sure). Just work in your sandbox where you have to freedom to do what you want. Any of your edits which require any kind of checking would need to be done in the Sandbox for now. You should put more work into Quran errors and do more research on them. For example the link I added from Answering-Islam for the female/male fruit errors; things like that should be present when available and it took me a few seconds of Google searching to find that link. Sorry but this is the max I can do. For now I simply do not have time to do any difficult tasks on the site (but I may do some stuff when I want to). But keep doing your stuff, keep scanning, bringing in stuff, making new errors in your Sandbox. All those things will get incorporated one day. If you like source scanning I have a lot of sources to share (email on the site contact email and I will send you those). Source scanning is stuff that can be quoted (hadiths, scholars etc). You can also review existing Quran errors (not in main space, only in your own pages). Maybe some day we'll get some editors who can help in reviews more than I can. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 19:09, 13 August 2014 (PDT)

== Just letting you know ==

Hi Ax. Just letting you know that today I'm gonna finish cleaning up my user pages, see if there is anything else to add to the "Meet the Editors" page (or any others, for that matter) and then I will probably only be back very briefly every month or so just to say hi and help out here and there (I will definitely be back to fix that Indonesian image page that has been brought to my attention, so don't worry yourself with that). What we have both built up here over the years is amazing and something we should be real proud of. I really do worry though about our established articles degrading over time. Edits that improve articles are obviously great but edits just for the sake of new edits are not. My only hope is that you look at the articles (their quality, layout and general thesis) and keep/revert edits based solely on their worth to those articles as a whole, disregarding potentially hurt feelings even if you feel this will impact community harmony negatively. I'm sure I haven't been the most popular admin over the years because of the fact that I keep/revert edits strictly on this principle, but I think it was necessary for the integrity of this wiki and I don't regret it (let's be honest; even if this site was closed to further edits and only viewable as an archive, it would ''still'' be the best site about Islam on the net). The same with ideas concerning changes to the site. When you know an idea is bad or not suited to the site you should be very clear about your thoughts. I know you do this already and I'm not trying to say otherwise, but I also know that I'm much more willing to just lay it all out there. Well, that's my 2 cents for the day :D I will send you a new email address later in case you want to discuss anything with me in private or need to contact me in an emergency. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 03:19, 11 August 2014 (PDT)
:Ah sad, I was hoping you would have changed your mind and stayed but its ok. So I guess it was true.
::''My only hope is that you look at the articles (their quality, layout and general thesis) and keep/revert edits based solely on their worth to those articles as a whole, disregarding potentially hurt feelings even if you feel this will impact community harmony negatively.''
:I'll try my best and I'll try to be more strict. I'll figure out more ways to keep bad edits out of the main space while still allowing people to edit like in their Sandboxes. Yea let me know that email later. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:13, 11 August 2014 (PDT)
:::Hi Ax :) Since I was asked for some input on that other page I thought I'd look through the recent user creation logs to see what new editors have been doing and it was a bit shocking. I'm just making you aware that some odd stuff had been approved on the mainspace :( So far it's some obvious Muslim trolling that I reverted and an edit to that Qur'an only page that completely messed up the conclusion (made no logical sense at all so I reverted and left a message on the user's page). You can read my reasoning [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/User_talk:Tharpa here] and see if you agree with it. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 05:41, 16 August 2014 (PDT)
::::Oh, yea I see this edit [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=How_Islamic_Inventors_Did_Not_Change_The_World&diff=108211&oldid=107483] about the chess. I thought he was adding extra information but I wasnt paying attention. I should have checked the hadith. Oops. Thanks for [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Qur%27an_Only_Islam_-_Why_it_is_Not_Possible&diff=next&oldid=108258 fixing] that other edit too. I guess my reviews need reviews. I'll try to be more careful. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 10:08, 16 August 2014 (PDT)
:::::You're welcome :) [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 11:50, 16 August 2014 (PDT)

== A few remarks ==

Hi Axius,

Thanks for your reply. About your question:
:''"For your edit here, there's probably some others on that page that could also quality for what Allah thinks e.g.:''
:''For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.''

:''So I guess the other 'Allah' ones could be moved to the new section or, have all of them in one big section like we had before. Not sure which one is the best. --Axius (talk | contribs) 19:03, 18 August 2014 (PDT)"''

I have come across this before and my solution was create two or more sections and mark the ones mentioned before. This to get them grouped properly, and avoid the accusation of repeating the (usually insulting) verse several times. So add a header saying e.g. "The quotes marked with an asterisk are mentioned before".

Another point:
don't you think "Jizyah" on the page http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars
needs to be explained on the very page? E.g. Jizyah (extortion)
The same with "Hijab" or other dress code.
:Sounds like a good idea. We can repeat verses in various categories but mention that some are being repeated. I have always been in favor of repeating verses/hadiths as needed for better organization (they can qualify for multiple situations). The only challenge is to adjust the other QHS pages (there's 80 of them) for this as well but that could be done later after we see how the new version looks for this page.
:Do you mean including a short explanation on the main QHS page? [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars#Jizyah] Yea, sure that sounds like a good idea and in that same explanation we can also link a [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Jizyah hub page] for that topic and/or its [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Jizyah_%28Tax%29 main article.] --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:46, 20 August 2014 (PDT)

Hi Ax,

I will work on the change on non-Muslims and Allah page (Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Characteristics of Non-Muslims). It is indeed a hell of a job to do this for the hell and heaven pages too. Perhaps bigger categories "food", "clothing", "sexual pleasures", and even sadistic ones: 6:30, 8:50, 42:22, 83:35-36.
You haven't replied yet to my suggestion on the page http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars
My suggestion here is "Dress Code (Hijab)" and Extortion (Jizyah) instead of Islamic terms straight away.
Also I missed a category Ransom Qur'an 47:4 and 8:67-69. Shall I add this to the page: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars ?

I am a bit puzzled about the use of 74:31 in the context of "Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Characteristics of Non-Muslims" category "have a disease in their heart" "And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this ?" Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind. " As the association is made, but not explicitly stated that the Unbelievers have etc, etc.. Shall I add this or not?

Zakat is another problem: Some translate this a religious tax, in which case it goes to a tax collector, and others translate this as (compulsory) alms, in which case you decide who to give it to. The Zakat page needs some explanation on this. Certainly when it is tax. Since the Qur'an does not say how this tax is spent. I don't know what is practice.
--[[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]]) 22:59, 21 August 2014 (PDT)

::IMO you are approaching a lot of this in the wrong way.

::The QHS pages are specialized pages that consist of categorized quoted sources that can be used by others as references in whatever way they want. There is no need to provide detailed explanations about each subject because someone who had no idea what zakat was, would not be reading its QHS page in the first place. Instead, they would be reading its corresponding article page (i.e. [[Zakat (Tax)]]).

::At most, there should be a 1 sentence description that links to its hub page/article page (e.g. "''This page is a collection of quotations concerning [[Zakat]].''", similarly to [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muhammad_Teddy_Bear_Blasphemy_-_Images this] page). But I honestly don't even see the need for this because the hub page is already linked on the "see Also" section.

::Concerning the "Dress Code (Hijab)" and "Extortion (Jizyah)" suggestions, I would say no for several reason. If you think we would name a page on Jizyah, "Extortion", then you clearly do not understand what WikiIslam is about. Then there's the fact that "Hijab" does not refer to dress code alone, so your title is inaccurate. Islamic terms are often not completely analogous to the English-language concepts they are mostly associated with. So your suggestion would cause more trouble than I think it's worth. Also, on an international wiki about ''Islam'', why would we ''not'' use the ''Islamic'' term first in the title?

::Finally, concerning your query about the definition of zakat; we go by what the primary sources (e.g. the Qur'an, Hadith, etc.) tell us. The zakat was a compulsory tax under Prophet Muhammad, the Rightly-Guided Caliphs, the later Caliphate, and even some some theocracies today, so it is a tax, pure and simple. Just because there is no global caliphate to enforce the tax on every Muslim, does not change this. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 08:55, 22 August 2014 (PDT)

Thanks for explaining that Sahab, but I wonder if this is user friendly (for non-Muslims that is). And there were a few more questions I put in this section also in your field of expertise. Can you reply to those too? --[[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]]) 15:28, 22 August 2014 (PDT)

:User friendliness is not the only issue here. Of course we try to be as user friendly as we can, but there are many other factors to consider. One of those is accuracy. In fact that is a lot more important than user friendliness. So if only using Islamic terms is the most accurate thing to do, then that is what we do (and even if an analogous English word was found, could you imagine how silly a wiki about Christianity or Buddhism would look if Islamic terms were given precedence over Christian/Buddhist terms to make it easier for non-Christians/Buddhists to understand? It would be ridiculous). Then there is staying on topic and avoiding redundancy. A QHS page for those looking for in-depth references and quotes should remain a QHS page with in-depth references and quotes. And encyclopaedic entries explaining the subjects of QHS pages should remain encyclopaedic entries. Since someone who doesn't understand what zakat is wouldn't be concerned with the QHS page to begin with, the important thing is to provide a link between the two (which we already do via hub pages that can be found in their "see Also" sections).

:Concerning the other questions, I can only see one that I missed, and that was the question about Qur'an 74:31. I think that would be okay to include because (when read in conjunction with Qur'an 2:9-10 which is already quoted) it is obviously saying that unbelief/doubt are a disease of the heart. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 17:42, 22 August 2014 (PDT)

Hi Sahab, Thanks for your reply, I will put it in. The other question you missed was about ransom e.g. 8:68 (Had it not been for a previous ordainment from Allah, a severe penalty would have reached you for the (ransom) that ye took. ), and 47:4 (Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.) I did expect a page / chapter about it.--[[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]]) 15:43, 24 August 2014 (PDT)

:Hi Jansen. Two verses alone are not enough to create a QHS page. When a new page is created, ideally it should cover the subject as it is found in the Qur'an, major hadiths, sira, tafsir, fiqh and fatwas from major scholars. You can work on something like that in a sandbox (e.g. [[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Ransom]]). If text of each kind is not found, it is okay, but the final page must still be a decent enough length to justify its own page. If not, then the few quotes can be listed at [[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Miscellaneous]] (the subjects in this page are arranged alphabetically).

:But even before doing all of that, you must consider if it is appropriate for this site and series. What exactly is the reason/benefit to be gained from having a page on ransom? There is a reason for each and every one of the QHS scholars pages. This is after all a wiki critical of Islam, so they all in some way or the other help towards that. What exactly is your point for the addition? [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 19:02, 24 August 2014 (PDT)

::Hi Sahab, I have read the Qur'an and found too much emphasis on hate, greed (masked as religious tax, support, spoils of war etc..) violence and virtually nothing on detachment, compassion, spirituality etc. . So putting it in is essential. I found greed of Muhammad is the main thing that is coherently present throughout the Qur'an. I did put it in the sandbox you referred to. Decide yourself where to put it in the end. --[[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]]) 21:58, 24 August 2014 (PDT)

:::Those sound like emotional reasons, so those alone aren't reason enough to justify a page such as that. As I noted earlier, two quotes are not enough for a stand-alone page, but feel free to add the contents of [[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Ransom]] to [[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Miscellaneous]] (placing the Heading "Ransom" in its correct alphabetically order). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 14:05, 25 August 2014 (PDT)

== Suggestion to make things easier for editors ==

Hi Ax! I've finally sorted that image thing (it was really bugging me actually, I don't like leaving things half done, especially when it's something concerning accuracy). Anyways, have you thought of creating a page for editors called (something like), "[[WikiIslam:Arguments Not To Use]]"?

It would save you and the editors a lot of headache/wasted time in the future. It would also function as a permanent "reminder" of ''why'' a certain thing is wrong/bad (since there may not always be an editor available who would notice these things). It is a bit silly to have these issues constantly brought up and discussed anew when only the same thing is repeated (that's not to say new arguments/perspectives are not welcome).

For example, trying to call everything related to lying, "Taqiyya"[http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Forum#Making_Pages_easier_to_find] or claiming that Allah prays to Muhammad.[http://wikiislam.net/wiki/User_talk:PW._Jansen#.22Pray_to_Muhammad.22]. It was the Taqiyya issue that gave a bad impression to Hassan Radwan and others on COEMB. He [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/What_People_Say_About_WikiIslam#Comments_from_Former_Muslims thinks] we're a pretty good site now, which is great considering all the quotes included in that old (and pretty terrible) Taqiyya article are actually in the new (greatly expanded) "[http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Lying_and_Deception Lying and Deception]" article I wrote. If I remember correctly, that "Pray to Muhammad" argument was also previously removed by you actually. OsmanHassan tried to add it.

Also a quick note about accepting spelling/grammer corrections made by editors; you should take care to check whether or not the spelling/grammer error is ours or the person/material we are quoting. If it is the latter[http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Jacques_Cousteau_%28Conversion_to_Islam%29&diff=109354&oldid=108690], then we should not be altering it. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 22:04, 20 August 2014 (PDT)
:Agreed, I think there was a language problem about the Praying/blessing, thanks for explaining it to PW Jansen.
:Yea that sounds good. Anything to help out editors know whats good and bad. There can be a see-also link to the Tone/Style article.
:Yea I made a mistake and didnt notice it was in the quotebox. Good idea by the way to add "What people say" to the left. That definitely should be linked on every page now. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 12:29, 21 August 2014 (PDT)

Ax, with Jansen and the forum conversation in mind, I have to say that I find it very disconcerting that there are editors who do not grasp our general approach and style, or simple concepts such as hijab, zakat or the fact that taqiyya is a single aspect of lying, not the entire subject of lying itself. Even with all the ups and downs, we are friends and I don't want to leave you in the lurch, so I have no problems with correcting things when I am here. But very soon I will be writing elsewhere and will have little free time, so I really will only be able to pop in once or twice a month. It worries me that some of the suggestions made by editors may have been followed through if I was not here to point out why they were wrong. Even Jansen's additions to to that Characteristics page were in the completely wrong page (times that a few times over and you are left with a QHS series that is a disorganized and illogical mess). I really don't know what to suggest except you being more involved and pointing out these errors when they make them, and I think you should start asking new contributors to at least read the Core Principles page when they first arrive. Before then, their input seems like a waste. I will make that "[[WikiIslam:Arguments Not To Use]]" page when I can because I think that will be very useful to the site, but do you have any other ideas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Sahab|Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sahab|contribs]]) {{#if:| |}} ([[WikiIslam:Signatures#Signing_Posts|Remember to sign your comments]]) 
:Since I'm unable to review the stuff (not having the time or the ideal capability; time being the bigger problem), the only way I know of dealing with this is to lock down the site for editing, create a page for "Apply to become an editor" where we can put all kinds of stuff we want to. We can tell people why we have locked down the site and where they are asked to explain why they should be allowed to edit and so on and send us a sample article, answer some questions that we ask for them (like a test) etc. Test questions like "What is Taqiyaa and what mistakes do critics of Islam sometimes make for this term?", "Rate yourself from 1 to 10 on English language skills", "Work on any 'Under construction' article we have and send us the fixes so we can evaluate your quality of work." etc. Any kind of stuff that makes it so its only people who really want to edit, and have proven they do not need reviews or a lot of 'education' and can make a positive contributions. Its sad but we simply dont have the time, neither of us and no one else is available. So tThat should reduce the number of people trying to edit. Locking the editing down could be a big loss in terms of potential editors and translators but that's all I can think of.
:By the way the page on Mamta Kulkarni is now in the top 10 traffic wise. I find it funny but I guess thats a pretty popular thing people search for (Sunita Williams is also popular, even more actually). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 16:55, 22 August 2014 (PDT)
::Lol, I actually forgot to sign my name. Oops. I'm usually a stickler for such things. Sorry. Anyways, news on that Mamta Kulkarni page is a pleasant surprise. Wow. I'm guessing we must get a lot of views from India/Pakistan/Bangladesh? Good news indeed. About locking down the wiki and getting people to apply; I know that is something you wouldn't want by choice. So that is sad to hear. I think we should keep our thinking caps on in the time-being, but I dunno. Maybe if you did get a few decent applications, it wouldn't be so bad? All you would need is a few reliable, regular editors who understand what this place is about and you'd be set. From there, you possibly go back to open editing because your reliable, regular editors would hopefully catch any mistakes. Your actual idea concerning the questions/tasks are good. I'm sure with a little bit of thought, we could come up with something that would provide you with a very good idea of what quality of editing to expect. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 17:19, 22 August 2014 (PDT)
:::Yea, its very popular, it might even become a top 5 like Sunita Williams.
:::The Meet The editors page should play a big role in making people want to join the site (that's my guess because it helps them make a connection with us). I feel if we do lock the site its at a time when we may be attracting more people who want to help or are interested. Locking it down will therefore effect that goal. Another option is to simply ask people not to edit main space until they have received the 'Reviewer' flag. It also looks like that if someone cant get the flag in their first 50 edits, they will likely never get it since good judgement seems to be an built-in ability, not something that can be improved or changed a lot. Its there or its not so people's first few edits can tell us a lot about their ability for a logical/rational approach, ability for critical thinking, attention to detail and so on.
::: So for changes they need to use the talk page first. On the other hand thats whats the Reviewer tag is since it needs a review. I'm inclined to keep it open and ask people to use Talk pages first. I dont know how it will help though because I'm the only one now who will have review and I too dont have much time for that.
:::OR keep editing open and only disallow editors from main space when they have shown consistently that they are unable to make good judgements for a lot of their edits and when its becoming too much work to review them. I think that sounds good. Its just that I need to be there to check all that. Ahhhh. Anyway lets see how it goes.
:::I feel this page you made [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Arguments_Not_To_Use] is going to be hard to complete because of the so many things that can be put on it, but, I think its more useful in giving examples on what kinds of things, or thinking or attitudes to stay away from so thats pretty good. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 17:50, 24 August 2014 (PDT)
::::Cool. Okay, I wish you all the best with whatever you decide. I'll work on that page over the next few days. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 19:05, 24 August 2014 (PDT)
:::::As promised, I've now finished that page. Of course, new arguments can be added as they are encountered. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 16:35, 6 September 2014 (PDT)
:::::: I've created that page I mentioned in the email: [[WikiIslam:Required Reading for Editors]]. Like I said there, I think, even as an optional thing, editors will find that page very useful to have. I hope you find it effective. I've just been reminded of why I will probably enjoy working solo a lot more, so, to avoid overstepping the mark and outstaying my welcome, I will leave you to the nitty-gritty, time-consuming work of dealing with editors. I will pop back in now and then to answer any queries specifically made to me or you can email me if you need anything. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 08:16, 9 September 2014 (PDT)
::::::: I didnt think it would take that long for me to get back online but I'm back now. Lets see whats going on. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 22:02, 12 September 2014 (PDT)
:::::::New page (required reading) looks good and is a good idea. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 04:30, 14 September 2014 (PDT)
::::::::''"I've just been reminded of why I will probably enjoy working solo a lot more"'' - you're really solo over here again. PW Jansen [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3APW._Jansen&diff=109781&oldid=109759 said] QHS should not include hadiths and verses and I asked him if he noticed we have a H and a S in the title. It didnt take more than a few exchanges with him to discover that his edits arent good for the main space. People who have problems with logical thinking should not be editing main space and should edit sandboxes instead. I have asked him to do whatever he wants in Sandbox pages (and even then I would restrict him to his own Sandbox pages not the Sitewide ones). Now I'm wondering about all his previous edits [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/PW._Jansen&offset=&limit=500&target=PW.+Jansen]. I guess some of them might be ok. I'll try to take a look and if I find a few more problems I might just revert them all unless you say that should not be done. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 03:34, 22 September 2014 (PDT)
:::::::::I just reverted all this edits. His suggestions for QHS proved that he's not thinking right and the site does not have time for people like that. Thats how strict we will have to be to maintain site quality and since I or anyone else does not have time to review the edits, they will all have to go. We cannot let quality be effected at all and if someone makes basic mistakes or show an approach thats totally incorrect or give a competely ridiculous suggestion (like not showing hadiths and scholars on pages that are ''titled'' hadiths and scholars) like the ones I highlighted on his talk page, they should not be editing main space. You can see I've become pretty strict with this now. We just dont have the time for it and you've talked about this issue first and now I totally agree with you. Logical and rational thinking cannot be taught. They are either there or they're not. It would be another thing if he realized his mistakes but he hasnt done that so there, we really have no time for this. I would like to make it so only specifically mentioned white listed people can edit main space (just like we have it for the edit blocking system), maybe in the future. But that would stop IP edits from correcting mistakes so yea... I guess we dont need to do that. We just need to monitor users and ask them not to edit when they prove clearly they should not be editing main space. Another idea is to have a right called "Restrict main space edits", to disallow certain editors. That may work. We need to ensure that people who have proven they should not be editing main space should not be doing that. I guess thats something to think about in the future. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:13, 22 September 2014 (PDT)
:::::::::::We need to have a page so we can just link to it and tell an editor, "Please see section 1." and thats where we explain that they are not to edit main space anymore so we dont have to keep saying the same stuff over and over again. I'll try to think about it.--[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 06:04, 22 September 2014 (PDT)
::::::::::::I agree with all of the above. There should be a quick link to direct editors to. And also that understanding our approach is something that they either get or they don't. I mean Jansen's a prime example. If you look through the many discussions, you can see he just doesn't. Only [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3APW._Jansen&diff=109769&oldid=109759 today]: ''"The Qur'an makes perfectly sense as a tool for a ruthless gangster, to create a submissive gang."'' You'd think that our numerous responses to him (for example, when he wanted to name a page about Jizyah "Extortion") would have alerted him to the fact that this is not the kind of discourse we are after. This is on top of the logical issues which are actually more important (for example, understanding the basic facts about mainstream Islam, such as how integral hadith are)[[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 12:15, 22 September 2014 (PDT)
:::::::::::::''"And also that understanding our approach is something that they either get or they don't. "'' - yea, I'm starting to believe this now. I used to be more lenient but we cant afford to. Someone walks into a room full of complex machinery and if they just start pushing buttons we can predict they'll be a bad worker now and in the future. Someone who is careful knows not to do that and that increases the chances of them being a good worker. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 17:23, 22 September 2014 (PDT)

== Wow ==

How tragic was your last revert. Even a Quran source you had difficulty to see. Let us see how long the articles recently promised by other editors will take to form. and See also what to do with the QHS edit. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:52, 21 August 2014 (PDT)
:I understand your sadness but I'm sorry there is no one available to review the edits of a regular editor who has problems with the majority of their edits (as Sahab pointed out [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Saggy&diff=109275&oldid=109272 here] saying ''"I'll admit I usually think you edits should be removed. But that is because they are usually terrible."'' and I agreed with it). We have to maintain quality (this is high priority) and there is simply not enough time to review your edits. I had suggested you can work in your user space sandboxes (where you have full freedom to write and organize your content) and one day someone will come by to review and incorporate your edits into the main space.
:Another solution is for you to talk to someone who is willing to review your edits.
:Also search for your talk page for this text "not a reference" where Sahab asks you to fix the reference for that quote. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:21, 21 August 2014 (PDT)

== Zakat / Charity ==
Sorry to have causes such a stir with my changes. I will stick to adding some to the QHS pages on Qur'an input. I need some input on this. Most translations do not use the word zakat. From one that does I got the following verses referring to them:2:43, 2:83, 2:110, 2:277, 4:77, 4:162, 5:12, 5:55, 7:156, 9:5, 9:11, 9:18, 9:71, 19:31, 19:55, 21:73, 22:41, 22:78, 23:4, 24:56, 27:3, 30:39, 31:4, 33:33, 41:7, 58:13, 73:20, 98:5. Most are not on the Zakat page yet. The translation WikiIslam uses Abdullah Yusuf Ali translates this with ''regular charity''. So I think this needs a word from an editor to explain, but I leave that to someone else. But there are many more requests for money from the believers. Which Yusuf Ali translates with ''Charity'' (33:35) or ''offering for sacrifice'' (2:196) ''Those who spend their substance in the cause of Allah'' (2:262) Do they need to be included with some other header, or just avoid them for the time being? --[[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]]) 16:55, 24 August 2014 (PDT)
:Can you give some verses where you think Zakat was not mentioned in the verse but the verse was mentioned in the QHS page?
:"Zakat" (compulsory ordered by Islam) is an arabic word and so is "Sadaqah" (voluntary) [see this link talking about the [http://islamqa.info/en/9449 difference]] both of which you'll find in the verses. When you see the word 'Charity', thats the translation.
:So do you mean that some of the verses in the QHS zakat page actually talk about Sadqah and not Zakat?
:Thanks for the addition [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Characteristics_of_Non-Muslims&diff=109453&oldid=109411 here]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 17:36, 24 August 2014 (PDT)

::To Axius: Jansen is not saying there are verses on our page that do not mention zakat. He is saying there are many more verses that mention it but are not covered in our QHS page. And also that translators do not usually use the Arabic word, zakat.

::To Jansen: You have to understand that these pages are not meant to include every single quote that is available on the subjects. As I mentioned earlier, they are all there for specific reasons, and they are there with the intention of aiding others in Islam criticism. This zakat page is mainly there to emphasize that zakat is only for Muslims, and especially the terrorist/jihadi kind. So just filling up that page with lots and lots of quotes from the Qur'an that does not advance Islam criticism would not be helpful. Of course you are welcome to list and quote verses that you think are helpful in a personal sandbox page (e.g. [[User:PW. Jansen/Sandbox 1]]) and then other editors/admin can take a look at it. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 19:10, 24 August 2014 (PDT)

::: Indeed I mean the confusion caused by translators not using the word Zakat. One gets ''compulsory alms'' (Rodwell) or ''regular charity'' here. Looking at the QHS page on this I find the following verses should not be listed here: 2:219 2:254 2:262 2:270 2:272 2:273 The word used in my translation is ''contribution'' not zakat. Also the verses 9:60 (love gifts), 17:26 (gifts to relative etc.) and 28:86 (as "support" here is not clearly financial).
::: To Sahab, I get your point. But it is important to understand the atmosphere reading the Qur'an creates. The number of times that some kind of financial contribution is asked/demanded (many) compared to the number of time a really charitable purpose is mentioned (a few times) shows the emphasis of Muhammad. Good idea to put that in my sandbox. --[[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]]) 21:32, 24 August 2014 (PDT)
::::So... I'm looking at the first one 2:219 [http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/002-qmt.php#002.219].
::::Some Muslim websites talk about this verse when talking about Zakat and Sadaqah (charity) e.g. I searched [https://www.google.com/search?q=quran+zakat+2%3A219&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb quran zakat 2:219]. Would it be possible to work on a Sandbox like Sahab said and make your own version of the QHS page (start adding some verses and let us know so we can take a look). You can click here to make that page: [[User:PW. Jansen/Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Zakat]].
::::Maybe Sadqah /charity related verses can be moved to one section at the end of the Zakat page or make a page for Sadqah itself. See whatever looks good for criticism of Islam. Any additional thoughts Sahab? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:18, 25 August 2014 (PDT)

:::::Jansen, I still do not think you have grasped what these pages are about. Pointing out the fact that Allah (aka Prophet Muhammad) asked often for money, and rarely for good causes, is something that belongs in an essay or article, not in a QHS page. The issue concerning the word zakat or contribution is easily sorted through adding an introductory line explaining that this page covers both zakat and sadaqah (sometimes referred to as voluntary zakat, and as Axius pointed out, even if the word zakat is not explicitly used, Muslims do associate these verses with it). Concerning 28:86, I would say it is very clear, since it says "in any way". That would apply to physical and financial support. If it did not, then there would be no need to use the qualifier.

:::::What's interesting about this is that it provides another example of where the Islamic terms are not completely analogous with English ones. In Islamic terms, zakat is both a tax and a charity, and they see no problem with discussing it as both, along with actual charity (i.e. sadaqah). But by its English definition, it is strictly a tax. For example, consider tax in the UK. It is taken by the country from people who work and then in part distributed to those who don't work and are in need. This tax functions exactly as zakat does. However, the British do not go around calling it "charity" and the media don't make silly news stories about how Britons are the "most generous" people-group. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 13:44, 25 August 2014 (PDT)

::::::Ax, due to the recent conversations, I have completely rewritten the [[Zakat (Tax)]] stub into a full length page so others can properly understand what zakat is and what it is not. What do you think? This will probably be my last mainspace article for the site before my commitments elsewhere will rob me of all my spare "online time". Rewriting/expanding that page was actually one of our "to-dos" on the Tasks page. I've removed a lot of the tasks from there now because a lot of them were already completed by me or were no longer relevant. I'm sure there's more on there that can be removed, but I probably got most of them. Anyways, that page can be seen as a "parting gift". I hope you like it :) Of course, I'll still work on that "WikiIslam:Arguments Not To Use" page like I promised (but that's not a mainspace page anyhow. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 18:42, 25 August 2014 (PDT)
:::::::Lol. off-topic but Ax, this is hilarious. Some anon just vandalized the [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Muhammad_Drank_and_Performed_Ablution_with_Wine&diff=109499&oldid=109497 "Muhammad Drank and Performed Ablution with Wine"] page with vitriol aimed at me (''"Do your homework Sahab before you post anything online"''). So what are the chances that this idiot is picking on a page I did not contribute to in any significant way (it's not even link on my List of Works)? Classic unintended humor :D [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 19:31, 25 August 2014 (PDT)
:::::::: Yea thats funny how he addressed you specifically. Nice to get some more recognition.
::::::::Zakat page looks good, thanks for that.
::::::::: Okay zakat page with Qur'an qoutes made [[User:PW. Jansen/Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Zakat]] I don't have access to an Arabic version where I could check out Zakat and separate it from other financial contributions. I have noticed some inconsistencies in the translations in the 3 translations this site uses, but this is as good as I could make it. --[[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]]) 01:15, 7 September 2014 (PDT)
::::::::::Ok. Pending review/evaluation (no one currently available to do that so we'll have to wait). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 04:33, 14 September 2014 (PDT)
::::::::I didnt see all the tasks removed but Raisins or Virgins [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=WikiIslam:Tasks&oldid=109266 old revision] would be a nice page to be linked into externally. Its already shown in the "responses" section but it could be expanded and given its own page because that Pseudonym guy who started the Raisins thing has done a lot of damage. So... Anyway. One of the tasks was correctly removed though but I didnt check anything else. I'd like to restore any that are possible pages, maybe out them into an "Evaluation" section there. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 12:26, 26 August 2014 (PDT)

{{Outdent|8}}Okay, I've added those tasks to an Evaluation section as you suggested. Keep or remove as you see fit. I'll just briefly explain my reasons:

1. Deleted article. It was a silly mainspace article by OsmanHassan before I added the humor tag and eventually deleted it because of overwhelming inaccurate and misleading content, even for a humorous page. I suppose the task could be continued on the page, "[[Positive Teachings in Islam]]".

2. Already completed the task.

3. Doesn't make sense. It is referring to the same article.

4. Already completed the task.

5. Deleted article. It was an extremely poor article and the subject is of no major importance.

6. Already completed the task.

7. Deleted article. My summary for deletion was, "unfinished. controversial topic using obscure sources & some claims (i.e. egypt) have been refuted. needs lot of work before it's in mainspace". Frankly, recreating this page would only result in doubt being cast on the site's other material.

8. Deleted article (deleted by you, in fact).

9. Already completed the task.

10. Not really needed, important or suitable. If people want to read quotes of Ali Sina or Robert Spencer, they could just go to FFI or JW/

11. Article would give people the wrong impression of this site and provide them with ammunition to mock it. See [http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/153-reductio-ad-hitlerum], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum], [http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adnazium.html], [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law]

12. Not really inportant, has already been covered in "Sahih", and Sani probably will not return to start it.

13. I think the section on the main 72 page is sufficient, but that's a matter of opinion

14. The whole "How Islamic Inventors Did Not Change The World" is about the same issue and covers all the most important ones. I don't see a need for another one, but again, I suppose that's a matter of opinion. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 17:00, 26 August 2014 (PDT)
:Ok. I added a few back so we have 4 now [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Tasks#Evaluation]. I would like to see an attempt made some day on those articles to see if they're valid. The goal of the articles wouldn't be to say "yes its valid" but to report any important findings (kind of like how we treated Taqiyaa; we clarified what is true and whats not) so that would apply to Necrophilia. I'd like to see what is available on the topics. 1001 inventions has its own article on Wikipedia so it looks like a big deal and it would be nice if they can be found and refuted like the other article we have so I want to try whats available on that as well. But yes the others were fine to remove so thanks for that. I will delete the Forgiveness temp page after Saggy takes any thing of use from it. ("All sins are forgiven but shirk is not")--[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 03:48, 29 August 2014 (PDT)
::What do you think of this new section [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=WikiIslam%3APolicies_and_Guidelines&diff=109565&oldid=105722]. I had mentioned that to you above and I thought I would write it down on that page. I feel this 'protects' the main space like you wanted to and I agree with that and it still allows anyone the freedom to work in any way they like in Sandbox articles. I dont want people to feel they're restricted so they can use the non-indexed sandbox/temporary pages in any way they like knowing that Guidelines will be applied when content is moved into main space. Maybe Quality control should be moved to the Pending changes page but I did want it to be somewhere. By the way are the new external commitments [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Axius&diff=next&oldid=109485]/projects/tasks you're going to be involved with related to criticism of Islam or is it just other real-life stuff? Just curious. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:46, 29 August 2014 (PDT)
:::Yeah, my commitments are related to the criticism of Islam. Concerning those tasks; a Necrophilia page that just covers hard facts, rather than trying to argue a point based on obscure sources, sounds good. If you think they are necessary, then the Raisins and 1001 Inventions tasks are fine too. I understand why you would want separate pages on those issues.

:::I still do not agree with the Mein Kampf task though. There are already a few pages related to Nazism here but they are a lot more subtle. I think a page that solely exists to compare both those books is going too far and will open this site up to ridicule. We've always agreed that those who already understand Islam are not this site's target-audience (of course critics are a target audience, but not in the sense that the site need to attract them, since they probably already use the site). The target audience that is being aimed for, are those who don't know about Islam one way or the other. A page like that Mein Kampf vs Qur'an page would automatically cause that type of audience to become dismissive of the site entirely. Well, that's my opinion anyways.

:::That new P&G section is great. You may be right and it should be moved somewhere else (I'm not sure since I've only just seen it and haven't had time to think about it), but the content is needed to let editors know. If it's not indexed by Google, then I don't see any harm in it. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 04:00, 30 August 2014 (PDT)
::::Cool. I hope we can know later on more about what that is, if its a website or a book or something else. If your time is going to be diverted from here to something else its sad but I support it. As long as you're doing something in that area thats good. You can use this site for any purpose for that other stuff too for example for writing or organizing content. I've always been supportive of whatever anyone else is doing because the more people we have in this and the more variety the better. It makes the whole movement stronger over all so in fact that variety is very important. If its really good we can advertise it here too, make links to it etc. Seeing all the stuff you've done I bet it would be a good project that should be showcased as much as possible. Behind all this is also my curiosity to know what it is so I have to admit that.
::::[http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Islam_on_the_Net%3A_Add_Site&diff=109581&oldid=107794] edit or remove as you like. There could be a section on the Human rights page for LBGT issues in Muslim countries.
::::I'm not sure about the Mein Kamph page either but I'll have a better idea if I see an actual page so for now I'll leave it there. It would be created in the Sandbox name space first any way (if ever) and then have to pass through guidelines to move to main space.
::::Yea those pages are excluded from search engines [http://wikiislam.net/robots.txt] (I just added User stuff, the 2nd last line). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:54, 30 August 2014 (PDT)

:::::Thanks. It's a long-winded project that's only at the conceptual phase, so I don't really want to say anything in case it goes sideways. Even if it doesn't work out, it won't be a complete loss. With every project there is always new material created as a result. And that can always be used for other stuff. So I'm just crossing my fingers :) [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 18:08, 1 September 2014 (PDT)
::::::Nice, I hope its a great success. Thanks for moving/merging that stuff. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 18:29, 2 September 2014 (PDT)

== Not useful to this site but.. ==

Have you read Robert Spencer's book "Did Muhammad exist" and debates? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 09:14, 3 September 2014 (PDT)
:No I haven't. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 04:31, 14 September 2014 (PDT)

== Shi'ites ==

Hi. That IP was probably a Shi'ite. I've partly restored his/her [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Shiite&diff=109944&oldid=109931 edit] because it is correct. And pointing out that Shi'ites are not "deviant", at least in this case, is the right thing to do. That prayer issue was only there because OsmanHassan was twisting facts in trying to make sects of Islam look more different than they really are. He also tried to do that to the [[Shahadah]] page once (claiming Shi'ites have a "different" one, but forgetting to mention that the extra few words are only optional; the core shahadah is identical). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 11:41, 7 October 2014 (PDT)
:Thanks for the fix. I wasnt sure so I didnt let it go through just to be safe. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:30, 7 October 2014 (PDT)
::No probs. Yeah, I think that was the right decision. If their original edit stayed, it would have made the majority of that page about a minor issue (number of prayers). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 18:53, 7 October 2014 (PDT)
:::Are you back? Now please verify some of my errors. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:05, 10 October 2014 (PDT)
::::Sorry, as of yet I dont have the time but one day someone might. We have a huge "to do" list ([[tasks]]) that is waiting to be worked on. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:39, 10 October 2014 (PDT)

== Trolls ==

Hi Ax. When you get trolls posting nonsense on the forum page, you should consider wiping their edits from the history. These trolls make their edits while knowing full well that it will be reverted, probably because they also know that most readers will go through histories out of pure curiosity. I think it's extremely pleasing to deny them this satisfaction.

Have you also noticed how they all complain about the wiki being "dishonest" or "sneaky"? This shows how effective the policies and writing style is on the site. They can't make others dismiss the site as a "hate site" because they cannot find any actual hate (because our policies deny commenting on immigration, politics or promoting other religions), so they are only left with speculating about our personal motives. How sad is that? You can almost hear the desperation in their edits.

Then there is the usual plea for the site to change its name. How they would love for this site to be called something hateful like "Muslims Exposed" or "Islam is Terror" or to have the logo covered in blood or something sensationalist like that.

The only other way they seem to criticize WikiIslam is by claiming it is owned by Ali and then criticizing him and FFI. This once again shows how effective the [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Core_Principles#Content Core Principles concerning content] are. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 21:04, 20 October 2014 (PDT)
:I usually dont bother with the hiding of those kinds of diffs just because of laziness plus even if they do get satisfaction thats ok. Maybe its a good thing that readers can see those ad-homimen comments about the site and see for themselves that the trolls have no valid responses. But yea you can keep hiding them. I'll try to do that too.
:Yea its good that none of them can talk about factual accuracy. They'll try to attack the site from whichever angle they can but thats all they can do. Yea I agree the Core policies look great and make a good impression about the site. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 16:29, 21 October 2014 (PDT)

== Instructions for Translators ==

Wow, [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Instructions_for_Translators that] was more work than I expected. There's even another supplementary page I need to complete when I next take a break. What do you think of it? Should be easy now for new translators if they get stuck. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 23:44, 23 October 2014 (PDT)
:Oh yea looks great. Its a totally new page. Great work. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 06:41, 24 October 2014 (PDT)
::Thanks. I've included a section on [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Instructions_for_Translators#Post-Translation Post-Translation] work. So translators should be able to create language templates themselves and update the other translations with links to their new translation. This leaves admin with minimum clean-up work. With the [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Language_Templates_and_Pages supplementary page] (which is blank ATM), I was thinking of adding lots of visual tables and stuff for those who need even more simplified instructions. It will also have translations for each language name ("German" in French, Arabic etc.) so adding those links in the final stages will be easy for them (otherwise, I can imagine them mistranslating words or simply using the English words for them). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 01:11, 25 October 2014 (PDT)
:::Good idea to have that post-translation section yea and all the directions too. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 06:54, 25 October 2014 (PDT)

== Responses to apologetics who claim earth is round ==

Where does it go , the Flat Earth and the Quran article? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:56, 24 October 2014 (PDT)
:? I didnt get it. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 12:26, 24 October 2014 (PDT)
::[http://www.nogodbutallah.org/index.php/home/answering-wikiislam-1] a laughable attempt to prove that earth is round from the verse "lord of the two easts" -55:17. It needs a response. But which article is the correct place for a response? I read [[Flat Earth and the Qur'an]]. There is a General Apologetics section. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 05:47, 25 October 2014 (PDT)
:::Ok. You can write something up in one of your Sandboxes. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 06:51, 25 October 2014 (PDT)

== Recent edit to Questions to Ask About Islam‎ ==

Hi Axius. Concerning [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Questions_to_Ask_About_Islam&curid=10012&diff=110181&oldid=109382 this] question ("What did Allah create Man from?"); that's simply listing a contradiction. It's not really what the page is about at all. The questions on there are meant to make people think. To see what I mean, just read the other two entries in the creation section ([http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Questions_to_Ask_About_Islam#Creation they] are completely different). However, the new addition, as I mentioned already, is a contradiction. In fact, if you check the "Contradictions in the Qur'an" page, that exact same question exist (see [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Contradictions_in_the_Quran#What_was_Man_created_from.3F here] under "What was Man created from?". All of the contradictions are listed as questions, but oviously it would be ridiculous to just go around adding all of them to the "Questions to Ask About Islam‎" page. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 12:28, 26 October 2014 (PDT)
:I've added a [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Questions_to_Ask_About_Islam&diff=110186&oldid=110182 note] to the top for editors in the future. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]])
::Sounds good. I actually thought about the Contradictions issue but wasnt sure. Thanks for that. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 14:57, 26 October 2014 (PDT)

== Sunni ==

Hi Ax. Concerning [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=The_Arrivals&curid=9236&diff=110212&oldid=110211 this]; the question as to "if its only Sunni belief" is completely irrelevant. There is no need at all to state "Sunni" etc., because it is widely understood (by people in general, not just by me) that when someone says "Islam", they are referring to Sunni Islam. Sunni Islam itself is also known as "mainstream" or "orthodox" Islam (that says it all really). If we started to point out "Sunni beliefs" everywhere, then almost all of our pages would have to be remained (i.e. "Rape in Sunni Islam", "Mahr in Sunni Islam", "72 Virgins in Sunni Islam", and even "Sunni Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars". Obviously, that is ridiculous and unnecessary. It's not only us. For example, the "Five Pillars of Islam" is not a belief held by all "Muslims", it is a set of beliefs held by SUNNI Muslims. But no one calls them the "Five Pillars of SUNNI Islam". See what I mean? Unlike in Christianity, almost all Muslims belong to the same sect (I.e. the 90% who belong to Sunni Islam), making the other sects pretty irrelevant when you consider the larger picture. And Sunni Islam is also the original Islamic sect that all other sects (Shi'ites etc.) broke away from. I'll add something about this in the FAQ. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 00:30, 3 November 2014 (PST)
:"Rape in Sunni Islam" and the 90% thing you brought up is totally right. Sometimes I'll know the new editor is wrong but I wont bother to go into the issue as accurately as you did. I'll just ask for something I know they cant do (lol) which is to bring sources. I had a quick look at Wikipedia and googled the topic and I knew he cant do what he wants to do. If he had brought up any evidence I would evaluate the issue again at the next stage.
:I wonder if this Sunni/sect 'X' issue should be added to the FAQ, maybe in the Misc section [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Frequently_Asked_Questions#Miscellaneous]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 04:14, 3 November 2014 (PST)
::Yeah, definitely. I'll try to write something up later for the FAQ using some of the info above as a starting point. It could be under the heading, "Islam has many sects with differing beliefs, so what definition of "Islam" does this site use?". We can also point out that when referring to a version of Islam other than the mainstream, orthodox version, we always make sure the readers know this by specifying the name of the sect (i.e. Shi'ite etc.). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 04:37, 3 November 2014 (PST)
:::Ok. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 06:45, 3 November 2014 (PST)

== Recent Changes Cleanup ==

Hi. The Recent Changes Cleanup function doesn't appear to be working. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 00:04, 22 November 2014 (PST)
:Oops, fixed [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Special:RecentChangesCleanup]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 03:29, 22 November 2014 (PST)

== Testimonies and private emails ==

Hi AX. When someone submits a new testimony, could you check to see if they have left an email at the bottom? It is to do with [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Special:Form/newapostate#Notes Notes #1] on the submission form that says:

:''"Consider providing a contact email address at the bottom of your testimony. If an email address is not submitted, then there may be difficulty in getting information altered/removed later on if such a request is made. Your email address will be wiped from the page history before being added to the wiki mainspace, meaning only administrators will be able to view it."''

The best thing to do is delete the email address and then wipe it from the history with an explanation (e.g. "Email (as per Notes #1 on the form)") so we know where to look if they ever contact us. These emails could be very private and I don't think they should be left out in the public for too long. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 01:51, 6 December 2014 (PST)
:Yea you're right they should not be left there for long. I'll try to keep an eye on it. We do database compaction sometimes so that removes the deleted page so maybe an option is to keep the emails locally on the computer or saved in an email account in a draft email, or we just remove the requirement of adding the email, or we ask them to send us an email when they submit their testimony so we have it privately on record. That will be the easiest for us. On another note could you check your email? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 04:42, 6 December 2014 (PST)
::Thanks Ax, I'm reading it now. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 07:13, 6 December 2014 (PST)

== Dsarkosky ==

Hi Ax. That thing about "Porkistani/P*ki Muslims" was a mistake but not about 911. It's a racial slur (akin to the "N" word for blacks) against South Asians. This guy is clearly not an Arab, because an Arab would know the difference between my race and his. Mixing up Arabs with South Asians does happen, but it's usually troglodytes of European ancestry that do it. And it is mostly them who equate "p*ki" with "Muslim". I just thought I'd make you aware because I think America is the exception, and that word is not considered an insult over there. So obviously anything submitted to the site (even comments on talk pages) that contains that word would be going against the policies. Actually, any insults at all against race/ethnicity/nationality (e.g. "Porkistani") is against the policies.

Anyways, that "testimony" as a whole is crazy. Wow. So many calls for genocide in such a few amount of words. And lol at the "You need to eat bacon... to prove that you are no longer a Muslim" line. I'm a vegan, so with that line of thinking, it would mean that I must still be an under-cover Muslim. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 19:42, 3 January 2015 (PST)
:LOL. I just did an IP search and I was right. Whoever submitted that testimony did it from Western Europe. That's a long way from Oman (where he claims to originate) and Hong Kong (where he claims to now live). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 19:49, 3 January 2015 (PST)
::Yea he mixed them up (said it was Pakistanis who did 9/11 when it was mostly people from Saudi arabia). Yea the bacon/pork requirement was strange. Oh I see so the IP did not match the locations. Good catch. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 12:37, 4 January 2015 (PST)

==Mia Khalifa==
Hi Axius, can we have an article on Mia Khalifa? She is in the news.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 10:53, 10 January 2015 (PST)
:If it was appropriate for the site sure, but we would need someone to do it. According to Wikipedia she is/was not a Muslim ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia_Khalifa] unverified) so if its thats true we would probably not have the article. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 18:52, 10 January 2015 (PST)
::Yeah. Apparently, she was born into a Muslim family but is a Christian now. So a page about a porn star who was simply born to Muslims wouldn't be appropriate. There are a lot of Middle-Eastern pornstars, and it's a fair bet that the majority of them are from a Muslim background. This is nothing extraordinary. At best, the Freedom of Speech (links) page should have a link added under the US section. But nothing more. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 01:57, 11 January 2015 (PST)

== Muhammad and Aisha Task ==

Hi Ax. I don't understand why you added [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=WikiIslam:Tasks&curid=7002&diff=111648&oldid=111431 this] task. I think it is a pretty terrible idea. Those two pages have two distinct purposes, so merging them makes no sense. It would in fact make it harder for readers to use to counter Muslim arguments, make the page ridiculously long, AND make our other pedophilia pages redundant (if you want to merge the "Refutation of Modern Apologetics Against Aisha's Age" with the "Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha" page, then why not also merge the [[Aisha_Age_of_Consummation|Aisha's Age of Consummation]]" page with the "Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha" page? It's the exact same situation).

The [[Refutation_of_Modern_Apologetics_Against_Aishas_Age|Refutation of Modern Apologetics Against Aisha's Age]] page refutes only a single, stand-alone apologetic argument. This argument is basically, '''"Some Islamic sources say Aisha was aged 12, 14, 15, 17, 18 and 21 when Muhammad had sex with her"'''. If you look at the [[Responses_to_Apologetics_-_Muhammad_and_Aisha|Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha]] page, this is [[Responses_to_Apologetics_-_Muhammad_and_Aisha#Some_Islamic_sources_say_Aisha_was_aged_12.2C_14.2C_15.2C_17.2C_18_and_21_when_Muhammad_had_sex_with_her|argument number six]]. So basically what your new task is saying is to copy/paste that detailed, long and well-crafted stand-alone article under argument number six. I don't understand why you would even consider that a viable option. That one argument (that the hadith say Aisha was older) is practically as long as the page you want to merge it with, and that page contains 20+ different arguments.

Think about it from a reader's view: that's like a science teacher (WikiIslam) having a creationist student (Muslim) question one single aspect of evolutionary theory (Muhammad's pedophilia), but rather than give a detailed rebuttal to that single objection (Aisha's age according to hadith), the teacher slaps a 1000 page encyclopedia about the evolutionary theory in front of him and tells him to find the answer in there somewhere.

And like I mentioned earlier, merging this article also begs the question; why not merge every page concerning Mo and Aisha into that one page? [[Responses_to_Apologetics_-_Muhammad_and_Aisha#The_hadiths_do_not_say_Muhammad_had_sex_with_Aisha_when_she_was_9._They_have_been_poorly_translated|Argument number 4]] is '''"The hadiths do not say Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was 9. They have been poorly translated"''', so why not delete the "[[The Meaning of Consummate]]" page and copy/paste that into "Responses to Apologetics: Muhammad and Aisha" too? [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 21:29, 1 March 2015 (PST)
:The only reason I can think of is that both titles have similar words in them ("Refutation/Response" and "Apologetics"). If that's the case, then only a name change is needed to more accurately reflect the topics of the pages. TBH not only does "Refutation of Modern Apologetics Against Aisha's Age" need its name changed, but so does the "Aisha's Age of Consummation" page. I remember you previously said you preferred to keep the title as it is simply because that's an early article. However, the "Aisha's Age of Consummation" page has a misleading title as its content is not really about Aisha's age of consummation. It's about whether or not Mo can be classed as a pedophile. "Refutation of Modern Apologetics Against Aisha's Age" should be renamed "Aisha's Age of Consummation" because that IS the actual topic of the page. And "Aisha's Age of Consummation" should be renamed "Muhammad and Pedophilia" or something like that. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 21:42, 1 March 2015 (PST)
::"Muhammad and the Clinical Definition of Pedophilia" is a good name. I'll rename these pages when I can. There is a fair bit of redirecting that I will also have to do. Also wanted to add that if I am correct about the reason, then as administrators we must base our decisions off more than a cursory glance at the title of a page. A merge of those two pages would have big repercussions, not least to the logical structure and quality of the site. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 21:49, 1 March 2015 (PST)
:::Oh. Yea I totally missed that the title was "Responses to ... ''Aisha's Age''". So it was only the issue of her age for that title. I think whoever was doing the task would have noticed this before they started the task. Thanks for noticing that. I'll look into this again later.
:::Thanks for fixing those redirects. I wish there was a bot that could fix it. I'll make that a task in a new section for things that could be done by bots. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 02:19, 2 March 2015 (PST)
::::Cool. Yeah, sometimes finding where exactly the inline links are within a page can be hard. You have to go over the page text a couple of times before noticing it. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 02:36, 2 March 2015 (PST)
:::::I do a CTRL-F for the link's partial/full name or the page's name. Google chrome has good search highlighting features. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 03:10, 2 March 2015 (PST)
::::::Thanks Ax. I just tried that and it works great. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 16:12, 2 March 2015 (PST)

== About my modifications ==

Webcitation just failed caching my link. My other links'cache are ok.

If Anyone Slays a Person (Qur'an 5:32)

2015-03-14T11:26:06Z

Heitri2: Archived some links. Fixed some broker tafsir links.

[[File:Quran 5-32.png|290px|right|thumb]]
This article analyzes the [[Qur'an|Qur'anic]] verse 5:32 and the definition of "[[Mischief]]" in [[Islam]].
==Introduction==

Many [[websites]]<ref>Jacob Bender, [http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/print/jewish_muslim_dialogue_and_the_value_of_peace/ "Jewish-Muslim Dialogue and the Value of Peace]", The American Muslim, July 19, 2007</ref><ref>Arsalan Iftikhar, [http://edition.cnn.com/2009/OPINION/11/09/iftikhar.fort.hood/index.html "Murder has no religion"], CNN, November 9, 2009 (refutation to Arsalan Iftikhar's piece: [[Murder Has A Religion]])</ref><ref>[http://wisdomtoday.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/islamophobia/ "Islamophobia"], Wisdom Today, June 8, 2009</ref> and [[Public Figures|public figures]]<ref>Andrew G. Bostom, [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/03/keith_ellisons_taqiyya.html|2=2011-03-19}} "Keith Ellison's Taqiyya"], American Thinker, March 13, 2011</ref><ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/04/transcript-remarks-president-obama-cairo/ "TRANSCRIPT: Remarks of President Obama in Cairo"], Fox News, June 4, 2009</ref> have claimed that the following verse appears in the Qur'an, and that it denounces killing and equates the slaying of one human life to that of genocide against the entirety of mankind.

{{Quote|Qur'an|“If anyone slays a person, it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.”}}

However, this verse cannot be found in any printed copy of the Qur'an, regardless of whether or not it is in the original [[Arabic]] or in one of its many English translations. The reason for this is simple: the verse in question does not exist.

===Qur'an 5:32===

What is actually presented by apologists is a distorted, out-of-context and misleading paraphrasing of the following verse:

{{Quote|{{Quran|5|32}}|On that account: '''We ordained for the Children of Israel''' that if anyone slew a person - '''unless it be in retaliation for murder or for spreading mischief in the land''' - it would be as if he slew all mankind: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all humanity. }}

==Analysis==

===Its Context===

This verse is written in past tense (''Ordained'', not ''Ordain'') and clearly does not apply to Muslims but to "the Children of Israel" i.e. the Jews who, according to Islam, received an [[Taurat|earlier set]] of scriptures. In fact, it is [[Parallelism:_Sanhedrin_37a|mistakingly]] referencing a rabbinical commentary found in the Talmud as if it were the words of Allah.

Also when the clause which allows killing is reinserted and the passage is read in context with the following two verses directed at Muslims (notice the reference to Allah's messenger and the switch to present tense), what first appeared on the surface to be a peaceful message, is in actual fact a warning to non-believers:

{{Quote|{{Quran|5|33-34}}|The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.}}

===Its Application to Muslims===

According to the highly respected [[Tafsir|Qur'anic exegesis]] of Ibn Kathir- early Qur'anic commentator and [[Tabi'un]], Sayid ibn Jubayr (who lived at the time of Prophet [[Muhammad]], and was a companion of [[Aisha]]), had said:

{{Quote|1=[http://www.theholybook.org/content/view/6966/2/ Human Beings Should Respect the Sanctity of Other Human Beings] Tafsir Ibn Kathir|2=[فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيعاً] 
.....Sa`id bin Jubayr said, "He who allows himself to shed the blood of a '''Muslim''', is like he who allows shedding the blood of all people. He who forbids shedding the blood of one '''Muslim''', is like he who forbids shedding the blood of all people." In addition, Ibn Jurayj said that Al-A`raj said that Mujahid commented on the Ayah,}}

Also reported by another Tabi'un and commentator of the Qur'an, [[w:Mujahid ibn Jabr|Mujahid ibn Jabr]] (a student of [[w:Ibn Abbas|Ibn Abbas]]; a paternal cousin of Muhammad) while commenting on verse 5:32:

{{Quote|1=[http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13723 Human Beings Should Respect the Sanctity of Other Human Beings] Tafsir Ibn Kathir|2=He who kills a '''believing soul''' intentionally, Allah makes the Fire of Hell his abode, He will become angry with him, and curse him, and has prepared a tremendous punishment for him, equal to if he had killed all people, his punishment will still be the same.}}

Being a companion of Muhammad, Ibn Abbas was present around the time these verses were revealed. Together with ibn Jabr, he went through the Qur'an thirty times and memorised the meanings. Muslim scholars consider ibn Jabr to have the highest reliability.<ref>"''....Mujahid ibn Jabr, Abu al-Hajjaj al-Makhzumi is one of the major commentators of Qur'an among the Tâbi'în and of the highest rank in reliability among hadith narrators (thiqa)....''" - Sh. G. F. Haddad - [http://www.livingislam.org/o/mujah_e.html Mujahid (d. 102)] - LivingIslam, April 4, 2000.</ref>

===The Worth of a Non-Believer===

So far, it has been ascertained that verse 5:32 is not condemning the killing of a non-Muslim, and that a Muslim must not murder another Muslim, but what of the non-believers? What is the worth of their lives? According to sahih hadith, Muhammad said the life of a non-Muslim is not sacred:

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|1|8|387}}, See Also: {{Bukhari|1|2|24}}|
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, '''then their blood and property will be sacred''' to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik,

"O Abu Hamza! '''What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'''', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."}}

Furthermore, Muhammad also gave the verdict ([[fatwa]]) that a Muslim can not be killed for killing a non-Muslim.

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|9|83|50}}, See Also: {{Bukhari|1|3|111}}, and {{Bukhari|4|52|283}}|Narrated Abu Juhaifa:

I asked 'Ali "Do you have anything Divine literature besides what is in the Qur'an?" Or, as Uyaina once said, "Apart from what the people have?" 'Ali said, "By Him Who made the grain split (germinate) and created the soul, we have nothing except what is in the Quran and the ability (gift) of understanding Allah's Book which He may endow a man, with and what is written in this sheet of paper." I asked, "What is on this paper?" He replied, "The legal regulations of Diya (Blood-money) and the (ransom for) releasing of the captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for killing a Kafir (disbeliever)."}}

The vast majority of Muslim scholars hold this view, while a minority believe that a Muslim can be killed if he kills a non-Muslim [[Dhimmi]] who is under the "protection" of the Islamic community.<ref>{{cite web|url= http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=92261 |title= Killing a Muslim in punishment for killing a non-Muslim|publisher= Islamweb |series= Fatwa No.92261|author= |date= August 1, 2006|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.islamweb.net%2Femainpage%2Findex.php%3Fpage%3Dshowfatwa%26Option%3DFatwaId%26Id%3D92261+&date=2013-10-26|deadurl=no}}</ref><ref>[http://infad.usim.edu.my/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=10801 Fatawa: Killing a Muslim for a Non-Muslim] - Islamic Science University of Malaysia, November 6, 2003</ref>

===The Meaning of "Mischief"===

The Qur'an is vague in what actions deserve punishments such as execution, [[crucifixion]], the [[Amputation|cutting off of hands and feet]] from opposite sides, or exile from the land.

Putting aside the fact that no Muslim is allowed to be killed for the killing of a non-Muslim, "Murder" is quite straight forward, but what does it mean to "spread mischief"?

In the Tafsir ibn Kathir, Qatada, one of Muhammad's companions, explained the definition of "Mischief" according to Islam:

{{Quote|[http://www.theholybook.org/content/view/6333/2/ Meaning of Mischief] Tafsir Ibn Kathir|(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,"), means, "Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. '''Their mischief is disobeying Allah''', because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth.}}

In the Tafsir ibn Abbas:

{{Quote|1=[http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=2&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=32&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Surah al-Ma'idah, ayah 32] Tafsir Ibn Abbas|2=(For that) because Cain wrongfully killed Abel (cause We decreed for the Children of Israel) in the Torah (that whosoever killeth a human being for other than man slaughter) i.e. premeditatedly (or '''corruption in the earth''') or '''because of idolatry''', (it shall be as if be had killed all mankind) }}

In the Tafsir al-Jalalayn, by al-Suyuti, the following commentary is found:

{{Quote|1=[http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=32&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Surah al-Ma'idah, ayah 32] Tafsir al-Jalalayn|2=Because of that, which Cain did, We decreed for the Children of Israel that whoever slays a soul for other than a soul, slain, or for, other than, corruption, committed, in the land, '''in the way of unbelief''', fornication or waylaying and the like, it shall be as if he had slain mankind altogether; and whoever saves the life of one, by refraining from slaying, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind — Ibn ‘Abbās said [that the above is meant] in the sense of violating and protecting its [a soul’s] sanctity [respectively]. Our messengers have already come to them, that is, to the Children of Israel, with clear proofs, miracles, but after that many of them still commit excesses in the land, '''overstepping the bounds through disbelief''', killing and the like.}}

This understanding of what constitutes 'mischief' in Islam is confirmed by looking to other verses found within the Qur'an. Verse 7:103, for example:

{{Quote|{{Quran|7|103}}|Then after them We sent Moses with Our signs to Pharaoh and his chiefs, but they wrongfully rejected them: So see what was the end of those who made mischief.}}

Clearly "mischief" which is also equated to "waging war against Allah and His Messenger" in the very next verse, can and does apply to someone who simply refuses to accept Islam.<ref>Some apologists may try to claim that Pharaoh and his chiefs were "bad men" who deserved their "end". But anything else they may or may not have done is irrelevant to this discussion. The verse cites only one reason for punishing them, and that sole reason is for "wrongly rejecting" Allah's messengers.</ref>

According to Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the world's most quoted independent Islamic jurist:

{{Quote||Surah al-Ma'idah (5:33) says: "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle is that they should be murdered or crucified." According to Abi Kulaba's narration '''this verse means the apostates.''' And many hadiths, not only one or two, but many, narrated by a number of Muhammad's companions state that '''any apostate should be killed<ref>http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/12/gore-current-silent-as-cleric-affirms-apostacy-death-penalty-on-al-jazeera/&date=2013-02-13</ref>'''. }}

So what was first offered as the height of moral teachings found in the Qur'an, turns out to be an intolerant call to violence.

==Conclusion==

In this instance, as in [[Misinterpreted Verses |many others]], it is the apologists, not the skeptics, who are misinterpreting verses and quoting them out of context. A simple reading of the verse and those that surround it makes this clear.<ref>See [{{Reference archive|1=http://anartisticatheist.tumblr.com/post/41669861132/skepticalavenger-skapunkbeyond-had-to-reblog|2=2013-01-28}} this] related Tumblr post by the Artistic Atheist for an informative discussion concerning the context of verse 5:32 and verse 3:151 (the "cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers" verse).</ref>

In the Islamic world, those who propagate their non-Islamic faiths or [[free Speech|publicly criticize Islam]] are often [[persecution of Non-Muslims|harassed, imprisoned and even executed]] by their communities or their governments, under laws against "spreading disorder [mischief] through the land" and [[Islam and Apostasy|apostasy]].

If verse 5:32 means what [[Murder Has A Religion|some apologists claim]] it to mean, why are they so reluctant to quote the verse accurately rather than presenting a misleading paraphrasing of what they wished the verse had said? Furthermore, why are moderates unable to silence fellow Muslims on an intellectual level by using that very verse?

They are unable to because their claim is false, and (as proven by the actions of many)<ref>For example, on the 20th of July, following the [[Images of Jihad (United Kingdom)#7/7 Terror Attacks|7/7 terrorist attacks]] on London, Islamic cleric Omar Bakri Mohammed publicly stated "I condemn the killing of innocent people." only to be secretly recorded by an undercover reporter for the Sunday Times explaining two days later "Yes I condemn killing any innocent people, but not any kuffar." One of his followers, Islamic preacher Anjem Choudary, also explained in a BBC interview "when we [Muslims] say 'innocent people' we mean 'Muslims'. As far as non-Muslims are concerned, they have not accepted Islam. As far as we are concerned, that is a crime against God." Ref: Daniel Pipes - [http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/08/can-infidels-be-innocents Can Infidels be Innocents?] - Danielpipes.org, August 7, 2005</ref> anyone who is familiar with the Qur'an already knows this.

==See Also==

{{Hub4|Mischief|Mischief}}
{{Hub4|Misinterpreted Verses|Misinterpreted Verses}}

==External Links==

*{{external link| url = http://www.faithfreedom.org/the-most-peaceful-verse/| title = The Most Peaceful Verse| publisher = [[Faith Freedom International]]| author = | date = | archiveurl = http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faithfreedom.org%2Fthe-most-peaceful-verse%2F&date=2013-10-26| deadurl = no}}
*{{external link| url = http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/08/can-infidels-be-innocents| title = Can Infidels be Innocents?| publisher = Daniel Pipes| author = | date = | archiveurl =http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.danielpipes.org%2Fblog%2F2005%2F08%2Fcan-infidels-be-innocents&date=2013-10-26 | deadurl = no}}
*{{external link| url = http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/nakdimon/fort_hood_cnn.html| title = Fort Hood in light of the Quran: An Open Letter To CNN| publisher = [[Answering Islam]]| author = | date = | archiveurl = http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/nakdimon/fort_hood_cnn.html&date=2011-08-18| deadurl = no}}

'''Videos'''
*[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4&feature=player_embedded Killing of Non-Muslims is Legitimate - Anjem Choudary on HardTalk]
*[http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/11/deliberate-deception-cnn-and-arsalan.html Does Qur'an 5:32 Forbid Killing? (A Response to CNN and Arsalan Iftikhar on the Fort Hood Massacre)]
*[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-SoXs-0_rHY Understanding the Islamic Bombing of the Boston Marathon]

==References==
{{Reflist|30em}}

[[Category:Qur'an]]
[[Category:Islamic Law]]
{{page_title|If Anyone Slew a Person (Qur'an 5:32)}}

Taurah (the Torah According to the Qur'an)

2015-03-14T11:14:30Z

Heitri2: Archived Daniel Pipe's website link.

==The Taurat according to the Qur'an==

The [[Qur'an]] talks of the ''' Taurat/Tawrah ''' ( توراة ) referring to the Torah - the first five books of the Jewish Bible; found in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. Some Muslims and scholars believe it refers to the entire Old Testament, but this view is not widely held.

The Qur'an reports the Taurat to be one of the three previous [[Revelations]] of [[Allah]] (The other two being the [[Zabur]] and [[Injil]] ). The Qur'an asserts that Allah revealed the previous scriptures to the Jews and to the Christians, but that those who knew the scriptures 'changed the words from their right places' and 'forgot a good part of the message'. Regarding the Taurat:

{{ quote | {{Quran|5|44}}|Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.}}

The Qur'an also claims to 'confirm what they (People of the Book - Jews and Christians) have with them':

{{ quote | {{Quran|5|15}}| O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;}}

== Muslim Claims about the Taurat ==

As with the Injil, the majority of Muslims believe that Allah tells them in the Qur'an that the "People of the Book" (Jews and Christians) have corrupted the Taurat; thus its contents no longer reflect the "true words" of Allah. Muslims claim that the actual Jewish texts have been changed, yet the Qur'an never makes this claim. It clearly states that the Jews knew what the Taurat said, as they had the correct texts with them, but changed the words and meanings in their oral recitations to the illiterate people. Ie. they said that the Torah said something that it did not actually say. The Qur'an makes this clear when it states:

{{ quote | {{Quran|2|101}}|And when there came to them a Messenger from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing.}}

Clearly the Taurat was textually intact when the Qur'an was being revealed; as the Jews '' knew '' what the 'book of Allah' said, but 'threw it behind their backs as if they knew nothing.' [[Muhammad]] believed that he was prophesied in the Bible, and this was one of the things that the 'People of the Book' were keeping hidden.

== Muslim evidence of Corruption ==

As with the Injil, Muslims present verse 2:79 as evidence that the Qur'an '' does '' actually state that the previous revelations were corrupt during the time of Muhammad:

{{ quote | {{Quran|2|79}}| Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.}}

However, looking at these [[Corruption of Previous Scriptures (Qur'an 2:79)|verses in context]], along with other verses mentioning the previous scriptures, proves this claim to be incorrect.

Muslims present further proof that the Taurat is corrupt by pointing to the differences in accounting of events common to both texts between the Taurat and the Qur'an. They claim that anything that contradicts the Qur'an is 'corruption'. However this excuse is not valid, as the Torah precedes the Qur'an; thus we must label any contradictions on the part of the Qur'an, as corruption from the original texts. Considering there is absolutely no archaeological evidence (scrolls and such) that confirms the claims of Muslims or the Qur'an, we must discard this interpretation.

Although Muslims believe the 'previous scriptures' to be corrupt , they believe the Qur'an remains unchanged from the moment of revelation, until this day; that Allah is 'protecting it from corruption.' Muslims are also told that they are to believe in the "previous Revelations", although the word of the Qur'an supersedes them all. This does not fit with the claim of textual corruption.

So the question remains: Why does Allah protect the Qur'an, but was unable to protect the Taurat? Also, why would you be ordered to believe in something that you claim is corrupt?

{{Core POTB}}

== See Also ==

{{Hub4|Revelations|Revelations}}

==External Links==
*[http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.danielpipes.org%2Fblog%2F2010%2F09%2Fdefecation-torah-new-testament&date=2015-03-14 Istinja' (cleansing your anus) with the Torah and New Testament] ''- Daniel Pipes''

[[Category:Qur'an]]
[[Category:People of the Book]]

Christians Jews and Muslims in Heaven

2015-03-14T11:11:14Z

Heitri2: Archived some links. spa.quibla.com and islamicstudies.info links are dead.

[[File:Quran 2-62.png|290px|right|thumb]]
This article analyzes the apologetic claim, often used by the [[Ahmadiyya]],<ref>For example, an article by an American Ahmadi named Dr. Faheem Younus, on his Huffington Post‎ blog, titled "[http://islamo-criticism.blogspot.com/2012/04/in-islam-heaven-is-not-exclusive-oh.html In Islam, Heaven Is Not Exclusive]".</ref> that according to [[Islam]], [[Islam and the People of the Book|Christians and Jews]] who adhere to their faiths will enter [[Heaven|Paradise]] alongside Muslims. It also explains what [[Islam and Scripture|Islamic texts]] actually say about Christians and Jews in the Hearafter.
==Qur'an==

===Surah 2:62===

This verse is often quoted in an effort to prove Islam is tolerant and inclusive of other faiths. After all, how much more tolerant can a faith be than to allow the followers of other faiths into its vision of Paradise?

{{Quote|{{Quran|2|62}}|Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.}}

===Others===
====Surah 5:69====

Less quoted, but very similar to the previous verse:

{{Quote|{{Quran|5|69}}|Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.}}

==Analysis==

===Qur'an ===

====Muhammad====

The [[Qur'an]] makes it an article of faith to believe in [[Allah]] and ''all the messengers''. This includes Prophet [[Muhammad]]. According to the Qur'an, when Moses came with the [[Taurat]], it was necessary to follow him, when [[Jesus]] came with the [[Injil]], it was necessary to leave the laws of Moses and follow him. Finally, when Muhammad came with the Qur'an, it became necessary to leave the teachings of Jesus and follow Islam.

{{Quote|{{Quran-range|2|4|5}}|And who believe in '''that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you''' and they are sure of the hereafter. These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|5|68}}|Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel '''and that which is revealed to you from your Lord'''; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; '''grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people'''.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|4|152}}|And those who believe in Allah '''and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them'''-- Allah will grant them their rewards; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.}}

Several verses explicitly define "believers" as those who accept the prophethood of Muhammad. "Disbelievers" who do not, are told they are in error and condemned to the "burning fire".

{{Quote|{{Quran|2|285}}|'''The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers'''; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books '''and His messengers'''; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|4|136}}|O you who believe! believe in Allah '''and His Messenger''' and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and '''whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers''' and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|48|13}}|And whoever does not believe in Allah '''and His Messenger''', then surely We have prepared '''burning fire for the unbelievers'''.}}

====Islam====

The Qur'an clearly states that any religion other than Islam will not be accepted by Allah in the Hereafter.

{{Quote|{{Quran|3|19}}|'''Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam''', and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|3|85}}|And whoever desires '''a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him''', and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.}}

To accept the interpretation of verse 2:62 presented by Ahmadis and apologists, would also mean having to accept the Qur'an contains a blatant contradiction. However, as most Muslims will already be aware, this is not a contradiction if one takes the doctrine of [[abrogation]] into consideration.

===Commentaries===

The following are what the [[Tafsir]] and [[Fiqh]] literature have to say on verse 2:62 and its meaning.

====Tafsir Ibn Abbas====

{{Quote|1=[http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=62&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Surah 2 Ayah 62] Tafsir Ibn 'Abbas, trans. Mokrane Guezzou, Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought|2=Then Allah went on to mention the believers among them, saying: (Lo! Those who believe) '''in Moses and all the other prophets''', these earn their reward from their Lord in Paradise; they shall have no fear perpetually and they shall perpetually not grieve. It is said that this means that no fear will come upon them concerning torment in the future life nor will they grieve about anything they have left behind. And it is also said that this means: they shall have no fear when death is slain and hell is closed. '''Then He mentioned those who did not believe in Moses or the other prophets, saying: (and those who are Jews) who deviated from the religion of Moses, (and Christians) those who became Christians''' (and Sabaeans) a Christian sect whose members shave the middle of their heads, read the Gospel, worship the angels and say: " our hearts have returned (saba'at) unto Allah " , (whoever believeth) from amongst them (in Allah and the Last Day and does right) in that which is between them and their Lord, (surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve).}}

====Tafsir Ibn Kathir====
{{Quote|1=[http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.qtafsir.com%2Findex.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D372&date=2015-03-14 Faith and doing Righteous Deeds equals Salvation in all Times] Tafsir Ibn Kathir|2=After Allah described the condition - and punishment - of those who defy His commands, fall into His prohibitions and transgress set limits by committing prohibited acts, '''He stated that the earlier nations who were righteous and obedient received the rewards for their good deeds. This shall be the case, until the Day of Judgment. Therefore, whoever follows the unlettered Messenger and Prophet shall acquire eternal happiness''' and shall neither fear from what will happen in the future nor become sad for what has been lost in the past. Similarly, Allah said,

(No doubt! Verily, the Awliya' of Allah, no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve) (10:62).
The angels will proclaim to the dying believers, as mentioned,

(Verily, those who say: "Our Lord is Allah (alone)," and then they stand firm, on them the angels will descend (at the time of their death) (saying): "Fear not, nor grieve! But receive the glad tidings of Paradise which you have been promised!"). (41:30)}}

{{Quote|1=[http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.qtafsir.com%2Findex.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D371&date=2015-03-14 The Meaning of Mu'min, or Believer] Tafsir Ibn Kathir|2=`Ali bin Abi Talhah narrated from Ibn `Abbas, about,
(Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day) '''that Allah revealed the following Ayah afterwards,
(And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers) (3:85)'''.

'''This statement by Ibn `Abbas indicates that Allah does not accept any deed or work from anyone, unless it conforms to the Law of Muhammad that is, after Allah sent Muhammad . Before that, every person who followed the guidance of his own Prophet was on the correct path, following the correct guidance and was saved.'''

'''When Allah sent Muhammad as the Last and Final Prophet and Messenger to all of the Children of Adam, mankind was required to believe in him, obey him and refrain from what he prohibited them; those who do this are true believers'''. The Ummah of Muhammad was called `Mu'minin' (believers), because of the depth of their faith and certainty, and because they believe in all of the previous Prophets and matters of the Unseen.}}

====Tafsir Al-Jalalayn====
{{Quote|1=[http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=62&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Surah 2 Ayah 62] Tafsir al-Jalalayn, trans. Feras Hamza, Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought|2='''Surely those who believe, [who believed] before, in the prophets''', and those of Jewry, the Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabaeans, a Christian or Jewish sect, whoever, '''from among them, believes in God and the Last Day, in the time of our Prophet, and performs righteous deeds, ''according to the Law given to him''''' — their wage, that is, the reward for their deeds, is with their Lord, and no fear shall befall them, neither shall they grieve (the [singular] person of the verbs āmana, ‘believes’, and ‘amila, ‘performs’, takes account of the [singular] form of man, ‘whoever’, but in what comes afterwards [of the plural pronouns] its [plural] meaning [is taken into account]).}}

====Maariful Quran====

{{Quote|1=[http://islamicstudies.info/maarif/surah2.htm Surah 2 Ayah 62] Maulana Mufti Mohammad Shafi, trans. Prof. Muhammad Hasan Askari & Prof. Muhammad Shamim|2=In order to dispel such a misgiving, the present verse lays down a general principle: no matter how a man has been behaving earlier, so long as he submits himself fully to the commandments of Allah in his beliefs and in his deeds both, he is acceptable to Allah, and will get his reward. '''It is obvious enough that after the revelation of the Holy Qur'an, which is the last message of Allah, perfect obedience to Allah can only mean accepting Islam and following the Last Prophet Muhammad'''.

One might also ask why the verse mentions the Muslims, for if it is an invitation to Islam, there is no need to extend the invitation to those who have already accepted Islam. But if we keep in mind the richly concentrated style of the Holy Qur'an,and try to look beyond the literal sense of the words into the implications and suggestions contained in the verse, we would find that the inclusion of the Muslim factor has added a new dimension to the meaning. It is es if a king should,in a similar situation,say that his laws are impartially applicable to all his subjects, and that whosoever obeys them shall receive his reward for obedience irrespective of whether he has earlier been a friend or a foe.

'''We had better dispel another misunderstanding which is likely to arise from the wordings of the present verse -- and, which is actually being promoted by certain 'modernizers'. The verse mentions only two articles of faith of the Islamic creed -- faith in Allah and faith in the Day of Judgment. This should not be taken to mean that in order to attain salvation it is enough to have faith only in Allah and in the Day of Judgment. Fcr, the Holy Qur'an repeatedly declares that he who does not believe in the prophets, in angels and in the Books of Allah is not a Muslim'''. Faith in Allah is the first article in the Islamic creed, while faith in the Day of Judgment is the last. By mentioning only these two, the verse intends to say in a succinct manner that it is necessary to have faith in all the articles of the creed, from the first to the last. Moreover, it is through the prophets and the Books of Allah alone that man can acquire any knowledge of the essence and the attributes of Allah and of what is to happen on the Day of Judgment, while the Books of Allah are revealed to the prophets through an angel. So, it is not possible to have faith in Allah and the Day of Judgment until and unless one has faith in the angels, in the Books of Allah and in the prophets.}}

Response to "modernizers" in the footnotes to the commentary:

{{Quote|1=[http://islamicstudies.info/maarif/surah2.htm Surah 2 Ayah 62] Maulana Mufti Mohammad Shafi, trans. Prof. Muhammad Hasan Askari & Prof. Muhammad Shamim|2=23.Contrary to the flaccid fancies of some "modernizers" who are very happy with themselves over their "liberalism" and "tolerance", the present verse does not open the way to salvation for each and every "man of good will" irrespective of the creed he follows. If one reads the verse in its proper context and along with other relevant verses of the Holy Qur'an, one will easily see that the verse, in fact, promises salvation in the other world only to those who accept Islam. It is a n invitation to Islam extended to the Jews, the Christians, the Sabeans and, as a matter of fact, to the followers of all possible religions, and even to non-believers -- specific names only serve as examples.}}

====Biyan-ul-Quran====

{{Quote|[http://tanzeem.org/online/dorah/005-Al%20Baqara%2047-82.pdf Surah 2 Ayah 62] Dr. Israr Ahmed, Biyan-ul-Quran|'''''Some wrong headed and evil mongers'' in our time have tried to deceive people arguing erroneously from this ayah. They say that to achieve salvation one does not need to believe in the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and the two articles of faith discussed here i.e. belief in Allah (SWT) and in the hereafter, are enough for ones salvation'''. On the other hand this ayah makes it clear that it is not giving the detail of all the articles of faith which one should believe in. Those are mentioned elsewhere at numerous places. In fact this ayah clarifies the misconception that the Jews had, that they are the chosen ones and only they would enter the Paradise. On the contrary Allah (SWT) says that your salvation does not depend upon your lineage or your race but on the basis whether you are righteous or not.

As far as the belief in Prophet Muhammad (SAW) is concerned, we would like to point out the fact that, in the sixth ruku of this surah, Allah (SWT) invites the Jews to accept Islam by believing in the Prophethood of Muhammad (SAW) in order to achieve salvation and eternal bliss. '''So how can it be that the belief of a person is complete without believing in Prophet Muhammad (SAW). The context of this ayah clarifies that those people who were Jews, Christians or Sabians, and followed their own Prophet before the advent of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and they believed in Allah (SWT) and the hereafter, did righteous deeds will have their rewards from Allah (SWT). But once Allah (SWT) revealed Qur’an to Prophet Muhammad (SAW), it has become incumbent on a person to believe in him and the last revealed Book, along with other articles of faith'''.}}

====Dawat ul Quran====

{{Quote|[http://islamicstudies.info/dawat/surah2.htm Surah 2 Ayah 62] Shams Pirzada, Dawat ul Quran, trans. Abdul Karim Shaikh|Another very important point must be made clear here. '''It would be wrong to interpret the verse as implying that salvation depends upon virtuous conduct alone'''.According to such a view , one who observed one’s own religion, believed in Allah and the Hereafter and was righteous in deeds deserved salvation. '''This interpretation, however is farthest from the teachings of Quran and amounts to introducing an unjustifiable change in it'''. In this verse, the details of true belief, faith and righteous conduct are not being explained at all; they are mentioned in other places in Quran. '''Allah recognizes no belief or faith which does not accept that Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) is the last prophet of Allah and Quran is his true (undistorted) book'''. Without this belief, righteous conduct is of no avail because righteousness itself is determined by the observance of Muhammad’s shariah (pbuh). Quran is replete with such teachings, for example Surah-al-Baqarah has this as the central theme: it invites people to believe in revelation of the Quran and the prophethood of Muhammad(pbuh). This point is repeatedly stressed in many places in Quran, Allah says

With Allah, the accepted religion is Islam (Al-e-Imran 19)
Any person who will seek any religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter (Al-e-Imran 85)}}

====Reliance of the Traveller====

{{Quote|[https://archive.org/details/RelianceOfTheTraveller-TheClassicManualOfIslamicSacredLawumdat Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law] Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, Edited and Translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller (pp. 848-849)|Suddi states that (2:62) was revealed about the former companions of Salman the Persian when he mentioned them to the Prophet, relating how they had been, saying, "They used to pray, fast, and believe in you, and testify that you would be sent as a prophet." When he had finished praising them, '''the Prophet replied, "Salman, they are the denizens of hell," which came to discomfit Salman greatly, and so Allah revealed (2:62)'''.

The faith of the Jews was that of whoever adhered to the Torah and the sunna of Moses until the coming of Jesus. When Jesus came, whoever held fast to the Torah and the sunna of Moses without giving them up and following Jesus was lost.

The faith of the Christians was that whoever adhered to the Gospel and precepts of Jesus, their faith was valid and acceptable until the coming of Muhammad. Those of them who did not then follow Muhammad and give up the sunna of Jesus and the Gospel were lost.

'''The foregoing is not contradicted by the hadith relating that (2:62) was followed by Allah revealing (3:85), for the hadith merely confirms that no one's way or spiritual works are acceptable unless they conform to the Sacred Law of Muhammad, now that he has been sent with it'''. As for people prior to this, anyone who followed the messenger of his own time was guided, on the right path, and was saved.}}

===Hadiths===

====Belief in Allah alone====

2:62 makes it necessary to believe in Allah. And according to the Qur'an, believing in Allah alone is mandatory. Thus, "associating partners" with Allah is a sin that will not be forgiven.

{{Quote|{{Quran|4|48}}|Surely '''Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him''', and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.}}

Belief in the Christian Trinity is considered to be "associating partners" with Allah (i.e. polytheism), and the Qur'an specifically and repeatedly damns these Christians to Hell as blasphemous "disbelievers".

{{Quote|{{Quran|5|72}}|'''Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium'''; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely '''whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire'''; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|5|73}}|'''Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three'''; and there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, '''a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve'''.}}

Hadiths further explain what believing in Allah alone means, clarifying that it is "to testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah" and that "Muhammad is His Apostle".

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|1|2|50}}| "'''Do you know what is meant by believing in Allah Alone?'''" They replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." Thereupon the Prophet said, "'''It means: 1. To testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah's Apostle'''. 2. To offer prayers perfectly 3. To pay the Zakat (obligatory charity) 4. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan. 5. And to pay Al-Khumus (one fifth of the booty to be given in Allah's Cause).}}

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|1|2|87}}| "'''Do you know what is meant by believing in Allah Alone?'''" They replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." Thereupon the Prophet said, "('''That means to testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is His Apostle''', to offer prayers perfectly, to pay Zakat, to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan, (and) to pay Al-Khumus (one fifth of the booty to be given in Allah's cause)."}}

====Christians and Jews thrown into hell====

The following narrations are taken from [[Sahih]] Muslim (Chapter 8: "Throwing of non-believers in Hell-fire for believers as divine grace and mercy"). They tell us some Muslims will earn their place in Paradise and be spared [[Hell]]-Fire by Allah on the Day of Resurrection by making innocent Christians and Jews take their place and be thrown into hell.

{{Quote|{{Muslim|37|6665}}|Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire.}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|37|6666}}|Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. 'Umar b. Abd al-'Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him).}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|37|6668}}|Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes.}}

====Non-Muslim women used for sex====

The following is reported in Ibn Majah, Ibn `Adi in the Kamil, and al-Bayhaqi in al-Ba`th wal-Nushur. It explains that some Christian and Jewish women, among others, will make it into Paradise after-all. But only as sex [[Slavery|slaves]] for Muslim men. Al-Suyuti marked its chain as “fair” (hasan) in al-Jami` al-Saghir (7989).<ref>Shaykh Gibril Haddad - [http://www.webcitation.org/64zXNO08I How Many Wives Will The Believers Have In Paradise?] - SunniPath.com, Question ID:4828</ref>

{{Quote|1=[http://www.webcitation.org/64zXNO08I Ibn Majah, Ibn `Adi in the Kamil, and al-Bayhaqi in al-Ba`th wal-Nushur]|2= Abu Umama said, Allah be well-pleased with him: The Messenger of Allah said, upon him blessings and peace:

“None is made to enter Paradise by Allah Most High except Allah Most High shall marry him to seventy-two wives, two of them from the wide-eyed maidens of Paradise and '''seventy of them his inheritance from the People of Hellfire''', not one of them but her attraction never lags nor his arousal ever wanes.”}}

===Scholars===

====Jews and Christians that will enter paradise====
{{Quote|[http://islamqa.com/en/ref/2912 Who are the Jews and Christians who will enter Paradise?] Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 2912|As far as the Jews are concerning, their faith meant believing in the Tawraat (original Torah) and following the way of Moosa (peace be upon him) until ‘Eesa came, after which whoever continued to follow the Torah and the way of Moosa, and did not leave this and follow ‘Eesa, was doomed. As far as the Christians are concerned, their faith meant believing in the Injeel (original Gospel) and following the laws of ‘Eesa; whoever did this was a believer whose faith was acceptable to Allaah, until Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came, after which whoever did not follow Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and leave the way of ‘Eesa and the Injeel that he had been following before, was doomed.}}

====Attitude of Islam towards other religions====
{{Quote|[http://islamqa.com/en/ref/21534 Attitude of Islam towards other religions] Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 21534|The ruling of Islam concerning other religions is that they are all either fabricated and false, or abrogated.}}

====Are Christians disbelievers?====
{{Quote|1=[http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?HD=12&ID=592&CATE=10 Are Christians Kafirs? Mushriks? If not, can a Muslim woman marry a non-Muslim?] Shaykh Faraz Rabbani, Qibla, Question ID:592|2=The People of the Book are kafirs, and it is obligatory to believe that they are so, as Imam Nawawi explains. There is scholarly consensus on this, because of the clear nature of the texts about this.The Christians at the time of the Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace) already believed in the Trinity, the divinity of Jesus (peace be upon him), and such things.}}

====Ruling regarding Jews and Christians ====

{{Quote|1=[http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.islamweb.net%2Femainpage%2Findex.php%3Fpage%3Dshowfatwa%26Option%3DFatwaId%26Id%3D2924&date=2015-03-14 What is the ruling regarding Jews and Christians nowadays? Are they considered believers or disbelievers?] Islamweb, Fatwa No. 2924, August 30, 2010|2=The Quran, Sunnah and the consensus of scholars indicate that a man who embraces any religion other than Islam, is a disbeliever. His faith will not be accepted and, in the next life, he will be among those at loss . . . 
There is an explicit text that states that the People of the Book who do not believe in Muhammad, , or deny the Prophethood of any other Prophet, or those who associate deities with Allaah The Almighty, are disbelievers. . . . 
Everything that we have mentioned above is indisputable in Islam; and, anyone who denies or doubts any of it is deemed a disbeliever. Al-Qaadhi ‘Iyaadh reported the consensus of scholars on this matter.
Some Hanbali scholars have added that the one who doubts the disbelief of the People of the Book becomes a disbeliever}}

== Conclusion ==

There are many verses in the Qur'an that label Christians and Jews as disbelievers, and numerous more that explicitly condemn them and other disbelievers to Hell. There is scholarly consensus on the fact that Christians and Jews are viewed by Islam as kafirs, because of "the clear nature of the texts about this".

If you read verse 2:62 in context, it is referring only to those Christians, Jews, and Sabiens who believed in the time of their own Prophet/Messenger.

Each [[Revelation|Revelation]] abrogated the previous. Thus, after the advent of Prophet Muhammad and Islam, no individual can make it into Paradise unless they accept Allah as God, Muhammad as his last Prophet and the Qur'an as Allah's final book of guidance.

Therefore, the concept of Heavenly rewards in Islam are now exclusively offered to Muslims. Christians and Jews may believe in a single monotheistic god, but they do not believe in "His Messenger". Thus they are destined for the "burning fire".

Additionally, the non-Muslims who do make it into Paradise will only be used as sex-slaves by believing men, Muslims who themselves will be spared hell-fire by Allah on the Day of Resurrection by making innocent Christians and Jews take their place and be thrown into Hell.

==See Also==

{{Hub4|Heaven|Heaven}}
{{Hub4|Misinterpreted Verses|Misinterpreted Verses}}

==External Links==

*[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2010/10/salvation-for-non-muslims-reconciling.html|2=2012-09-14}} Salvation for non-Muslims? Reconciling 2:62 and 3:85] ''- Answering Muslims
''
==References==
{{reflist}}
[[Category:Qur'an]]
[[Category:People of the Book]]
{{page_title|Christians, Jews and Muslims in Heaven (Qur'an 2:62)}}

To You Your Religion and To Me Mine

2015-03-14T10:58:48Z

Heitri2: Archived every altafsir links.

[[File:Al-Kafirun.png|290px|right|thumb]]
This article analyzes the apologetic claim that [[The Holy Qur'an: Al-Kafiroon (The Disbelievers)|Surat al-Kafiroon]] (the [[Non-Muslims|Disbelievers]], [[Atheists]]) advocates religious tolerance, freedom and pluralism.
==Qur'an==

===Pickthall===

{{Quote|{{Quran-range|109|1|6}}|Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.}}

===Shakir===

{{Quote|{{Quran-range|109|1|6}}|Say: O unbelievers! I do not serve that which you serve, Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve, Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.}}

===Yusuf Ali===

{{Quote|{{Quran-range|109|1|6}}|Say: O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine.}}

==Analysis==

===Context===

This [[surah]] was revealed in Mecca before Prophet [[Muhammad]] became a military leader. [[Islam|Islamic]] historian al-Zuhri writes that during this period “the unbelievers of the Quraysh did not oppose what he [Muhammad] said. If he passed the place where they sat together, they pointed to him and said: 'This young man of the tribe of Abd al-Muttalib proclaims a message from heaven!'” However, “this they continued to do until Allah began to attack their gods…, and until He proclaimed that their fathers who died in unbelief were lost [to hellfire]. Then they began to hate the Prophet and show their enmity to him.”<ref>Sharma SS (2004), Caliphs and Sultans: Religious Ideology and Political Praxis, Rupa & Co, New Delhi, p. 63; Muir, p.63</ref>

Muslim chronicler al-Baihaqi further records (in The Signs of Prophethood) Muhammad’s disciple Amru ibn al-Aas’ testimony of Quraysh leaders’ discussion concerning Muhammad's verbal attacks on them and their religious beliefs: “Never have we had to tolerate from anyone what we have had to tolerate from this man. He slanders our fathers, criticizes our religions and divides our people, and blasphemes our gods. Such grievous things have we tolerated from this man…” Muhammad, who was nearby and heard this conversation, responded with, “Men of Quraysh! I will surely repay you for this with interest.”<ref>Baihaqi, Dala'il al-Nubuwwah, coc. Tornberg 232, fol. 85a</ref> The rest of the details are covered by the [[tafsir]] literature:

====Maududi====

{{Quote|[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/maududi/mau109.html|2=2013-05-06}} Surah 109 Ayah 1-6] Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi, Tafhim al-Qur'an|'''Historical Background'''

There was a time in Makkah when although a storm of opposition had arisen in the pagan society of Quraish against the message of Islam preached by the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace), yet the Quraish chiefs hall not yet lost hope that they would reach some sort of a compromise with him. Therefore, from time to time they would visit him with different proposals of compromise so that he accepted one of them and the dispute between them was brought to an end. In this connection, different traditions have been related in the Hadith.

According to Hadrat Abdullah bin Abbas, the Quraish proposed to the Holy Prophet; "We shall give you so much of wealth that you will become the richest man of Makkah; we shall give you whichever woman you like in marriage; we are prepared to follow and obey you as our leader, only on the condition that you will not speak ill of our gods. If you do not agree to this, we present another proposal which is to your as well as to our advantage."When the Holy Prophet asked what it was, they said that if he would worship their gods, Lat and Uzza, for a year, they would worship his God for the same space of time. The Holy Prophet said: "Wait awhile; let me see what my Lord commands in this regard."Thereupon the revelation came down: Qul ya-ayyuhal- kafirun... and: Qul afa-ghair Allahi... (Az-Zumar: 64): "Say to them: ignorant people do you bid me to worship others than Allah?" (Ibn Jarir, Ibn Abi Hatim, Tabarani). According to another tradition from Ibn Abbas, the Quraish said to the Holy Prophet: "O Muhammad, if you kiss our gods, the idols, we shall worship your God."Thereupon, this Surah was sent down. (Abd bin Humaid).

Said bin Mina (the freed slave of Abul Bakhtari) has related that Walid bin Mughirah, As bin Wail, Aswad bin al-Muttalib and Umayyah bin Khalaf met the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) and said to him:"O Muhammad (upon whom be Allah's peace and blessings), let us agree that we would worship your God and you would worship our gods, and we would make you a partner in all our works. If what you have brought was better than what we possess, we would be partners in it with You, and have our share in it, and if what we possess is better than what you have brought, you would be partner in it with us and have your share of it."At this Allah sent down: Qul ya-ayyuhal-kafirun (Ibn Jarir, Ibn Abi Hatim, Ibn Hisham also has related this incident in the Sirah).

Wahb bin Munabbih has related that the people of Quraish said to Allah's' Messenger: "If you like we would enter your faith for a year and you would enter our faith for a year."(Abd bin Humaid, Ibn Abi Hatim).

These traditions show that the Quraish had proposed such things to the Holy Prophet not once, in one sitting, but at different times and on different occasions; and there was need that they should be given a definite, decisive reply so that their hope that he would come to terms with them on the principle of "give and take" was frustrated for ever.

'''Theme and Subject Matter'''

If the Surah is read with this background in mind, one finds that it was not revealed to preach religious tolerance as some people of today seem to think, but it was revealed in order to exonerate the Muslims from the disbelievers religion, their rites of worship, and their gods, and to express their total disgust and unconcern with them and to tell them that Islam and kufr (unbelief) had nothing in common and there was no possibility of their being combined and mixed into one entity. Although it was addressed in the beginning to the disbelieving Quraish in response to their proposals of compromise, yet it is not confined to them only, but having made it a part of the Quran, Allah gave the Muslims the eternal teaching that they should exonerate themselves by word and deed from the creed of kufr wherever and in whatever form it be, and should declare without any reservation that they cannot make any compromise with the disbelievers in the matter of Faith. That is why this Surah continued to be recited when the people to whom it was addressed as a rejoinder, had died and been forgotten, and those Muslims also continued to recite it who were disbelievers at the time it was revealed, and the Muslims still recite it centuries after they have passed away, for expression of disgust with and dissociation from kufr and its rites is a perpetual demand of Faith.

As for the esteem in which the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) held this Surah, it can be judged from the following few ahadith:

Hadrat Abdullah bin Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) has related that on many an occasion he heard the Holy Prophet recite Surahs Qul Ya- ayyuhal- kafirun and Qul Huwu-Allahu ahad in the two rakahs before the Fajr obligatory Prayer and in the two rakahs after the Maghrib obligatory Prayer. Several traditions on this subject with a little variation in wording have been related by Imam Ahmad, Tirmidhi, Nasai, Ibn Majah, Ibn Hibban, Ibn Marduyah from Ibn Umar.

Hadrat Khabbab says: "The Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) said to me: when you lie down in bed to sleep, recite Qul ya-ayyuhal kafirun, and this was the Holy Prophet's own practice also; when he lay down to sleep, he recited this Surah." (Bazzar, Tabarani, Ibn Marduyah).

According to Ibn Abbas, the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) said to the people: "Should I tell you the word which will protect you from polytheism?It is that you should recite Qul ya-ayyuhal kafirun when you go to bed."(Abu Ya'la, Tabarani).

Hadrat Anas says that the Holy Prophet said to Hadrat Mu'adh bin Jabal; "Recite Qul ya-ayyuhal-kafirun at the time you go to bed, for this is immunity from polytheism." (Baihaqi in Ash-Shu'ab).

Both Fardah bin Naufal and Abdur Rahman bin Naufal have stated that their father, Naufal bin Muawiyah al-Ashjai, said to the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace):"Teach me something which I may recite at the time I go to bed."The Holy Prophet replied: "Recite Qul ya-ayyuhal kafirun to the end and then sleep, for this is immunity from polytheism." (Musnad Ahmad, Aba Da'ud, Tirmidhi, Nasai, Ibn Abi Shaibah, Hakim, Ibn Marduyah, Baihaqi in Ash-Shuab). A similar request was made by Hadrat Jabalah bin Harithah, brother of Hadrat Said bin Harithah, to the Holy Prophet and to him also he gave the same reply. (Musnad Ahmad, Tabarani).}}

====Ibn Kathir====

{{Quote|1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://sunnahonline.com/library/the-majestic-quran/434-tasfir-of-chapter-109-surah-al-kafirun-the-disbelievers|2=2013-05-06}} Tafsir of Chapter 109: Surah Al-Kafirun (The Disbelievers)] Tafsir Ibn Kathir|2=It is narrated by Muslim that the Messenger of Allah sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam used to recite this Surah with Surah Al-Ikhlas in two raka'at following tawaf of the Ka'bah; it is also narrated by Muslim that he used to recite them in the two raka'at of fajr prayer; and Imam Ahmad narrates that the Messenger of Allah sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam used to recite them in the two raka'at before fajr prayer and in the two raka'at of maghrib prayer.

It has also been narrated that Surah Al-Kafirun is equivalent to one quarter of the Qur'an. The Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam, also said: "Read: 'Say: 'Oh, you who disbelieve,', then sleep at the end of it because it is freedom from shirk (associating partners with Allah)." This Surah is freedom from shirk and it is an order to purify our faith (for Allah only) and the Words Say: 'Oh you who disbelieve,' includes all those who disbelieve in the world although those specifically addressed are the pagans of the Quraysh. It was said that they proposed that the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam, worship their gods for a year, then they would worship that which he worshipped (Allah) for a year, and so on. And so this Surah was revealed containing an order to the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam, to declare his rejection of all that which they worship, and to say: I do not worship that which you worship, that is, their idols and the partners they associate with Allah.

"Nor do you worship that which I worship," that is, Allah, Alone without partners.

"Nor will I worship that which you have been worshipping, neither will you worship that which I worship," that is, I will not follow your mode of worship and I will worship only Allah in the way which pleases Him.

"Neither will you worship that which I worship" means, neither will you follow the Commands of Allah and His prescribed way of worship; indeed you have invented a thing for yourselves, as in His Words: "They follow nothing but their own opinions and the (vain) desires of themselves, and Guidance has already come to them from their Lord." [Al-Qur'an 53:23] And so he rejected all of their shirk, for the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam, and all those who follow him worship Allah in the way prescribed by Him; for this reason the testimony of the Muslim is La ilaha illallah, Muhammad ar-Rasulullah – None is worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And there is no way to worship Him except that which was brought by the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam. The polytheists worship deities besides Allah in a way not permitted by Allah and so He told the Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam to say to them: "To you your religion and to me mine", as in His Words: "And if they reject you, then say: 'To me my deeds and to you your deeds and you are innocent of my accounts and I am innocent of yours,' " [Al-Qur'an 10:41] and, "For us our deeds and for you your deeds." [Al-Qur'an 28:55] According to Al-Bukhari your religion means kufr (disbelief) and my religion means Islam.

Abu 'Abdillah ash-Shafi'i says that the verse "To you your religion and to me mine" shows that the disbelievers are one people ... because disbelief in all its many manifestations has one thing in common – that is, falsity.}}

====Al Wahidi====

{{Quote|1=[http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.altafsir.com%2Fasbabalnuzol.asp%3Fsoraname%3D109%26ayah%3D0%26search%3Dyes%26img%3Da%26languageid%3D2&date=2015-03-14 Surah 109 Ayah 1-6] Asbab Al-Nuzul by Al-Wahidi, trans. Mokrane Guezzou, 2011 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought|2=(Say: O disbelievers! …) [109:1-6]. These verses was revealed about a group of people from the Quraysh who said to the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace: “Come follow our religion and we will follow yours. You worship our idols for a year and we worship you Allah the following year. In this way, if what you have brought us is better than what we have, we would partake of it and take our share of goodness from it; and if what we have is better than what you have brought, you would partake of it and take your share of goodness from it”. He said: “Allah forbid that I associate anything with Him”, and so Allah, exalted is He, revealed (Say: O disbelievers!) up to the end of the Surah. The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, then went to the Sacred Sanctuary, which was full of people, and recited to them the Surah. It was at that point that they despaired of him.}}

====Al Jalalayn====

{{Quote|1=[http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.altafsir.com%2FTafasir.asp%3FtMadhNo%3D0%26tTafsirNo%3D74%26tSoraNo%3D109%26tAyahNo%3D6%26tDisplay%3Dyes%26UserProfile%3D0%26LanguageId%3D2&date=2015-03-14 Surah 109 Ayah 1-6] Tafsir al-Jalalayn, trans. Feras Hamza, 2012 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought|2=Say: ‘O disbelievers! I do not worship, at present, what you worship, of idols, and you do not worship, at present, what I worship, and that is God, exalted be He, alone, nor will I worship, in the future, what you have worshipped, nor will you worship, in the future, what I worship: God knew that they would never become believers (the use of [the inanimate] mā, ‘what’, to refer to God is meant to counter [the reference to ‘what thing’ they worship]). You have your religion, idolatry, and I have a religion’, Islam: this was [revealed] before he was commanded to wage war [against the idolaters] (all seven Qur’ānic readers omit the yā’ of the genitive possessive construction [in wa-liya dīni] whether with a pause or without; Ya‘qūb, however, retains it in both cases).}}

====Ibn Abbas====

{{Quote|1=[http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.altafsir.com%2FTafasir.asp%3FtMadhNo%3D0%26tTafsirNo%3D73%26tSoraNo%3D109%26tAyahNo%3D6%26tDisplay%3Dyes%26UserProfile%3D0%26LanguageId%3D2&date=2015-03-14 Surah 109 Ayah 1-6] Tafsir Ibn 'Abbas, trans. Mokrane Guezzou, 2012 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought|2=And from his narration on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas that he said regarding the interpretation of Allah's saying (Say: O disbelievers!): '(Say: O disbelievers!) a group of people who derided the Prophet (pbuh) among whom were al-'As Ibn Wa'il al-Sahmi and al-Walid Ibn al-Mughirah, said to the Prophet: “O Muhammad! Surrender to our deity so that we worship the God you worship”. And so Allah said addressing his Prophet: Say, O Muhammad, to these deriders, O disbelievers who mock Allah and the Qur'an.

(I worship not that which ye worship) of idols beside Allah;

(Nor worship ye that which I worship) that which I will worship in the future.

(And I shall not worship that which ye worship) beside Allah.

(Nor will ye worship that which I worship) that which I worshipped in the past; it is also said this means: I do not believe in the divinity in which you believe nor will I believe in the divinity which you believe in beside Allah nor will you believe in the divine Oneness of Allah which I believe in.

(Unto you your religion) of disbelief and ascribing partners to Allah, (and unto me my religion) Islam and faith in Allah. The verses of fighting then abrogated this and the Prophet (pbuh) did fight them'}}

===Summary===

The authoritative and wholly [[Islam and Scripture|Islamic sources]] tell us that, following Muhammad's "shameful"<ref>Francis Edwards Peters, Muhammad and the Origins of Islam, SUNY Press, p.169</ref> verbal attacks on the native [[Paganism|pagan]] beliefs, the people of Quraysh still had hopes for reconciliation. In what appears to be history's first ever recorded attempt at inter-faith dialogue with the followers of Islam, they would visit Muhammad with different proposals of compromise so that he could accepted one of them and the dispute between them would be brought to a peaceful resolution.<ref name="Wahidi">[http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.altafsir.com%2Fasbabalnuzol.asp%3Fsoraname%3D109%26ayah%3D0%26search%3Dyes%26img%3Da%26languageid%3D2&date=2015-03-14 Surah 109 Ayah 1-6] - Asbab Al-Nuzul by Al-Wahidi, trans. Mokrane Guezzou, 2011 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought</ref><ref name="kathir"></ref> They were even willing to part with their wealth and women, and follow and obey him as their leader, on the condition that he would not speak ill of their gods.<ref name="maududi">[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/maududi/mau109.html|2=2013-05-06}} Surah 109 Ayah 1-6] - Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi, Tafhim al-Qur'an</ref> In response to their efforts at making peace, Muhammad recited surat al-Kafiroon, declaring his "rejection of all that which they worship" and showing that the disbelievers are all "one people ... because disbelief in all its many manifestations has one thing in common – that is, falsity".<ref name="kathir">[{{Reference archive|1=http://sunnahonline.com/library/the-majestic-quran/434-tasfir-of-chapter-109-surah-al-kafirun-the-disbelievers|2=2013-05-06}} Tafsir of Chapter 109: Surah Al-Kafirun (The Disbelievers)] - Tafsir Ibn Kathir (SunnahOnline)</ref> It was at this point that they finally "despaired of him."<ref name="Wahidi"></ref> The content of surat al-Kafiroon was then later [[Abrogation |abrogated]] by verses ordering Muslims to [[Jihad|physically attack]] disbelievers, and "the Prophet (pbuh) did fight them."<ref name="Abbas">[http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=109&tAyahNo=6&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Surah 109 Ayah 1-6] - Tafsir Ibn 'Abbas, trans. Mokrane Guezzou, 2012 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought</ref><ref name="Jalalayn">[http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=109&tAyahNo=6&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Surah 109 Ayah 1-6] - Tafsir al-Jalalayn, trans. Feras Hamza, 2012 Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought</ref>

==Conclusion==

When read in context, like many other [[Misinterpreted Verses|verses misinterpreted]] for apologetic purposes, surat al-Kafiroon advocates the opposite of what is sometimes claimed. This surah is not a proclamation on religious tolerance and freedom or a recognition of religious pluralism. In fact, this surah unequivocally forbids inter-faith dialogue, expresses Muslims' "total disgust" of non-Islamic beliefs<ref name="maududi">[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/maududi/mau109.html|2=2013-05-06}} Surah 109 Ayah 1-6] - Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi, Tafhim al-Qur'an</ref> and advocates an "us versus them" mentality<ref name="kathir"></ref> between Muslims and disbelievers. This is how the surah is understood by mainstream Islam and the majority of its classical and contemporary scholars. Furthermore, if the historical context were to be ignored, it would still remain an abrogated verse superseded by "the verses of fighting".<ref name="Abbas"></ref><ref name="Jalalayn"></ref>

==See Also==

{{Hub4|Misinterpreted Verses|Misinterpreted Verses}}

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Qur'an]]
{{page_title|To You Your Religion and To Me Mine (Qur'an 109:1-6)}}

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:The Islamic Tradition Itself

2015-03-12T23:53:00Z

Heitri2:

{{QuranHadithScholarsIndex}}
==Qur'an, Hadith and Sunnah==

===Understanding Scripture===

====Abrogation====

{{Quote|{{Quran|2|106}}|None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|13|39}}|Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|16|101}}|And when We change (one) communication for (another) communication, and Allah knows best what He reveals, they say: You are only a forger. Nay, most of them do not know.}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|3|675}}|The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) abrogated some of his commands by others, '''just as the Qur'an abrogates''' some part with the other.}}

See related: [[Abrogation]]

====The Qur'an is Easy to Understand====

{{Quote|{{Quran|44|58}}|Verily, We have made this (Qur'an) easy, in thy tongue, in order that they may give heed.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|54|17}}|And '''We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand''' and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?|See also: {{Quran|54|22}}, {{Quran|54|32}}, and {{Quran|54|40}}}}

====Muslims Should Not Incorrectly Interpret Scripture====

Anyone interpreting the verses beyond their obvious meaning is misguided

{{Quote|{{Quran|3|7}}|He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; '''then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and ''seeking to give it (their own) interpretation.''''' but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.}}

===Hadith and Sunnah===

The Sunnah is an integral part of Islam.

====Emulate Muhammad====

{{quote | {{cite quran|3|131|end=132|style=ref}} | Fear the Fire, which is repaired for those who reject Faith: 
And obey Allah and the Messenger; that ye may obtain mercy.}}
{{Quote|{{Quran|4|59}}|O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.}}
{{quote | {{cite quran|4|64|end=66|style=ref}} | And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful. 
But no! by your Lord! they do not believe (in reality) until they make you a judge of that which has become a matter of disagreement among them, and then do not find any straitness in their hearts as to what you have decided and submit with entire submission. 
But no! by your Lord! they do not believe (in reality) until they make you a judge of that which has become a matter of disagreement among them, and then do not find any straitness in their hearts as to what you have decided and submit with entire submission.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|4|69}}|And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they!}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|4|80}}|'''He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah''': But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).}}

{{quote | {{cite quran|4|113|end=115|style=ref}} | But for the grace of Allah upon thee (Muhammad), and His mercy, a party of them had resolved to mislead thee, but they will mislead only themselves and they will hurt thee not at all. Allah revealeth unto thee the Scripture and wisdom, and teacheth thee that which thou knewest not. The grace of Allah toward thee hath been infinite. 
There is no good in much of their secret conferences save (in) him who enjoineth almsgiving and kindness and peace-making among the people. Whoso doeth that, seeking the good pleasure of Allah, We shall bestow on him a vast reward. 
And whoso opposeth the messenger after the guidance (of Allah) hath been manifested unto him, and followeth other than the believer's way, We appoint for him that unto which he himself hath turned, and expose him unto hell - a hapless journey's end!}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|5|92}}|Obey Allah and obey the messenger, and beware! But if ye turn away, then know that the duty of Our messenger is only plain conveyance (of the message).}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|8|24}}|O ye who believe! '''Obey Allah, and the messenger when He calleth you to that which quickeneth you''', and know that Allah cometh in between the man and his own heart, and that He it is unto Whom ye will be gathered.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|8|46}}|And obey Allah and His Messenger; and fall into no disputes, lest ye lose heart and your power depart; and be patient and persevering: For Allah is with those who patiently persevere:}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|21|107}}|We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|24|53}}|They swear their strongest oaths by Allah that, if only thou wouldst command them, they would leave (their homes). Say: "Swear ye not; Obedience is (more) reasonable; verily, Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do."}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|33|21}}|Verily '''in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah''' and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|33|36}}|It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|47|33}}|'''O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the messenger''', and render not your actions vain.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|48|10}}|Lo! those who swear allegiance unto thee (Muhammad), swear allegiance only unto Allah. The Hand of Allah is above their hands. So whosoever breaketh his oath, breaketh it only to his soul's hurt; while whosoever keepeth his covenant with Allah, on him will He bestow immense reward.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|59|7}}|That which Allah giveth as spoil unto His messenger from the people of the townships, it is for Allah and His messenger and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, that it become not a commodity between the rich among you. '''And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it).''' And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|64|12}}|Obey Allah and obey His messenger; but if ye turn away, then the duty of Our messenger is only to convey (the message) plainly.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|68|4}}|And thou (standest) on an exalted standard of character.}}

====Emulate the Rightly-Guided Caliphs====

{{Quote|[http://www.islamworld.net/docs/nawawi.html#hadith28 Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadith, No. 28]|On the authority of Abu Najih Al-Erbadh bin Sariah, who said :

The messenger of Allah gave us a sermon by which our hearts were filled with fear and tears came to our eyes. We said: "O Messenger of Allah, it is as though this is a farewell sermon, so councel us." He said: "I councel you to fear Allah and to give absolute obedience even if a slave becomes your leader. Verily he among you who lives [long] will see great controversy, so you must keep to my sunnah and to the sunnah of the rightly-guided Khalifahs - cling to them stubbornly. Beware of newly invented matters, for every invented matter is an innovation and every innovation is a going astray, and every going astray is in Hell-fire."

related by Abu Dawud and Al-Tirmithi, who said that it was a fine and true Hadith.}}

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|4|56|675}}|Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Amongst the people preceding you there used to be 'Muhaddithun' (i.e. persons who can guess things that come true later on, as if those persons have been inspired by a divine power), and if there are any such persons amongst my followers, it is 'Umar bin Al-Khattab."}}

{{Quote|al-Waqidi|‘Ali: So what is stopping you from asking ‘Umar to make du’a for you? Do you know, Ibn Qurt, that his du’a is never rejected and always reaches Allah and that Rasulullah said in his regard: "Were there to be another prophet after me it would have been ‘Umar." Is he not that man whose decisions corresponded to that of the Quran until Rasulullah said, "Were punishment to fall from the sky to Earth, none would escape it except ‘Umar bin al-Khattab."

Do you not know that Allah revealed clear verses about him? Is he not ascetic, pious and always engaged in worship? Does he not greatly resemble the prophet Nuh? Should he offer du’a on your behalf it would be answered.<ref>Al-Imam al-Waqidi, The Islamic Conquest of Syria, A Translation of [http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/na_debate.htm Futuhusham: The Inspiring History of the Sahabah’s Conquest of Syria], translated by Mawlana Sulayman al-Kindi [Ta-Ha Publishers Ltd., London 2005], Part 3: Al-Yarmuk, pp. 287-288</ref>}}

====Muslims Must Follow the Sunnah====

{{Quote|{{Quran|4|83}}|When there comes to them some matter touching (Public) safety or fear, they divulge it. If they had only referred it to the Messenger, or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have Tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of Allah unto you, all but a few of you would have fallen into the clutches of Satan.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|49|14}}|The wandering Arabs say: We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.}}

{{Quote||Abdullah bin Amar (ra) relates that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said "Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier to Israelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resembles the other to the extent that if anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother there will be some who will do this in my Ummah as well, verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sections but my people will be divided into 73 sections, all of them will be in the fire except one." The companions asked, 'Who are they O Messenger of Allah,' Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "They are those who will be like me and my companions." (Hadith unverified)}}

{{Quote|{{Abu Dawud|40|4579}}|Narrated Abu Hurayrah (ra): The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: The Jews were split up into seventy-one or seventy-two sects; and the Christians were split up into seventy one or seventy-two sects; and my community will be split up into seventy-three sects.}}

{{Quote|{{Abu Dawud|1|42}}|Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Prophet (peace be upon him) urinated and Umar was standing behind him with a jug of water. He said: What is this, Umar? He replied: Water for you to perform ablution with. He said: I have not been commanded to perform ablution every time I urinate. If I were to do so, it would become a sunnah.}}

{{Quote|{{Abu Dawud|10|1794}}|Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab: As-Subayy ibn Ma'bad said: I raised my voice in talbiyah for both of them (i.e. umrah and hajj). Thereupon Umar said: You were guided to the practice (sunnah) of your Prophet (peace be upon him).|See also: {{Abu Dawud|10|1795}}}}

{{Quote|{{Abu Dawud|18|2879}}|Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Knowledge has three categories; anything else is extra; a precise verse, or an established sunnah (practice), or a firm obligatory duty.}}

{{Quote|{{Abu Dawud|24|3585}}|Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal: Some companions of Mu'adh ibn Jabal said: When the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) intended to send Mu'adh ibn Jabal to the Yemen, he asked: How will you judge when the occasion of deciding a case arises? He replied: I shall judge in accordance with Allah's Book. He asked: (What will you do) if you do not find any guidance in Allah's Book? He replied: (I shall act) in accordance with the Sunnah of the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him). He asked: (What will you do) if you do not find any guidance in the Sunnah of the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and in Allah's Book? He replied: I shall do my best to form an opinion and I shall spare no effort. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) then patted him on the breast and said: Praise be to Allah Who has helped the messenger of the Apostle of Allah to find something which pleases the Apostle of Allah.}}

{{Quote|Abu Dawud vol.3 no.4587-4589|In the future beware of people who hold only to the Qur’an and reject the Sunnah.}}

{{Quote|Abu Dawud vol.2 footnote 887|As it is necessary to obey the Qur’an, likewise it is necessary to follow the contents of the hadiths and sunna.}}

{{Quote|Abu Dawud vol.3 no.4595|There is no innovation after the Sunnah is established.}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|1|265}}|Hudhaifa reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) narrated to us two ahadith. I have seen one (crystallized into reality), and I am waiting for the other. He told us: Trustworthiness descended in the innermost (root) of the hearts of people. Then the Qur'an was revealed and they learnt from the Qur'an and they learnt from the Sunnah.}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|1|292}}|It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: What would you do when the son of Mary would descend amongst you and would lead you as one amongst you? Ibn Abi Dhi'b on the authority of Abu Huraira narrated: Your leader amongst you. Ibn Abi Dhi'b said: Do you know what the words:" He would lead as one amongst you" mean? I said: Explain these to me. He said: He would lead you according to the Book of your: Lord (hallowed be He and most exalted) and the Sunnah of your Apostle (may peace be upon him).}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|4|1151}}|He ('Umar) further said: Allah! I call You witness on these governors of lands, that I sent them to (the peoples of these lands) so that they should administer justice amongst them, teach them their religion and the Sunnah of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him), and distribute amongst them the spoils of war and refer to me that which they find difficult to perform.}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|7|2868}}|Abu Hassan al-A'raj reported that a person from Bani Hujaim said to Ibn 'Abbas (Allah be pleased with them): What is this religious verdict of yours which has engaged the attention of the people or which has become a matter of dispute among them that he who circumambulated the House can be free from Ihram? Thereupon he said: '''That is the Sunnah of your Apostle (may peace be upon him), even though you may not approve of it'''.|See also: {{Muslim|4|1566}}}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|8|3236}}|Anas (Allah be pleased with him) reported that some of the Companions of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) asked his (the Prophet's) wives about the acts that he performed in private. Someone among them (among his Companions) said: I will not marry women; someone among them said: I will not eat meat; and someone among them said: I will not lie down in bed. He (the Holy Prophet) praised Allah and glorified Him, and said: What has happened to these people that they say so and so, whereas I observe prayer and sleep too; I observe fast and suspend observing them; I marry women also? '''And he who turns away from my Sunnah, he has no relation with Me'''}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|9|3524}}|Abu Ishaq reported: I was with al-Aswad b. Yazid sitting in the great mosque, and there was with us al-Sha'bi, and he narrated the narration of Fatima bint Qais (Allah be pleased with her) that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) did not make any provision for lodging and maintenance allowance for her. Al-Aswad caught hold of some pebbles in his fist and he threw them towards him saying: Woe be to thee, you narrate like it, whereas Umar said: We cannot abandon the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of our Apostle (may peace be upon him) for the words of a woman. We do not know whether she remembers that or she forgets. For her, there is a provision of lodging and maintenance allowance. Allah, the Exalted and Majestic, said:" Turn them not from their houses nor should they themselves go forth unless they commit an open indecency" (lxv. 1).}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|31|5948}}|Anas reported that the people of Yemen came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Send with us a person who should teach us Sunnah and al-Islam, whereupon he (the Holy Prophet) caught hold of the hand of Ubaida and said: He is a man of trust of this Umma.|See also: {{Abu Dawud|18|2888}}}}

{{Quote|Sunan Nasa'i, translated by Muhammad Iqbal Siddiqi|The Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad is therefore, next to Qur'an, the second source of Islamic law and social and personal behavior. In fact we must regard the Sunnah as the only valid explanation of the Qur'anic teachings and the only means to avoid dissensions concerning their interpretation and adaptation to practical use. The Messenger of Allah said 'I am leaving you two things amongst you after my death... the one is the Qur'an and the other is my sunnah or Hadith.' Following hadith therefore is as important as following the injunctions of Qur'an, without which the religion of Islam would be incomplete and would create dissensions among the believers.}}

{{Quote|1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/3440/fabricated%2520hadeeth|2=2012-02-02}} The misguided sect of al-Qur’aaniyyeen] Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 3440|2=Ahmad, Abu Dawood and al-Haakim reported with a saheeh isnaad from al-Miqdaam that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Soon there will be a time when a man will be reclining on his couch, narrating a hadeeth from me, and he will say, ‘Between us and you is the Book of Allaah: what it says is halaal, we take as halaal, and what it says is haraam, we take as haraam.’ But listen! Whatever the Messenger of Allaah forbids is like what Allaah forbids.” (Al-Fath al-Kabeer, 3/438. Al-Tirmidhi reported it with different wording, and said that it is hasan saheeh. Sunan al-Tirmidhi bi Sharh Ibn al-‘Arabi, al-Saawi edn., 10/132).}}

{{Quote|Ibn Majah Vol. 3, Book 9, Hadith 1846|It was narrated from Aishah that:

the Messenger of Allah said: “Marriage is part of my sunnah, and '''whoever does not follow my sunnah has nothing to do with me'''. Get married, for I will boast of your great numbers before the nations. Whoever has that means, let him get married, and whoever does not, then he should fast for it will diminish his desire.” (Hasan)}}

{{Quote|Ibn Majah Vol. 3, Book 9, Hadith 1989|It was narrated that 'Abdulleh said:

"The Messenger of Allah cursed the woman who does tattoos and the one who has them done, and those who pluck their eyebrows and file their teeth for the purpose of beautification, and those who change the creation of Allah." News of that reached a woman of Banu Asad who was called Umm Ya'qub. She came to him and said: "I have heard that you said such and such." He said: 'Why should I not curse those whom the Messenger of Allah cursed ? '''And it is in the Book of Allah." She said: "I read what is between its two covers 'and I have not found that." He said: "If you read it properly you would have found it. Have you not read the words: 'And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad) gives you, take it; and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it).'?" She said: "Of course." He said: 'The Messenger of Allah forbade that."''' She said: 'I think that your wife does it.' He said: " Go and look." So she went and looked and she did not see what she wanted. She said: "I have not seen anything!’ 'Abdullah said: "If she was as you say, I would not have kept her with me. " (Sahih)}}

====The First 3 Generations of Muslims are the Best Muslims====

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|8|78|652}}|Narrated 'Abdullah:

The Prophet was asked, "Who are the best people?" He replied: The people of my generation, and then those who will follow (come after) them, and then those who will come after the later; after that there will come some people whose witness will precede their oaths and their oaths will go ahead of their witness." Ibrahim (a sub-narrator) said, "When we were young, our elder friends used to prohibit us from taking oaths by saying, 'I bear witness swearing by Allah, or by Allah's Covenant."'}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|31|6159}}|'A'isha reported that a person asked Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as to who amongst the people were the best. He said: Of the generation to which I belong, then of the second generation (generation adjacent to my generation), then of the third generation (generation adjacent to the second generation).}}

====Free Will====

{{Quote|{{Quran|3|19}}|'''Lo! religion with Allah (is) the Surrender (to His Will and Guidance).''' Those who (formerly) received the Scripture differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves. Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of Allah (will find that) lo! Allah is swift at reckoning.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|5|4}}|They ask thee (O Muhammad) what is made lawful for them. Say: (all) good things are made lawful for you. And those beasts and birds of prey which ye have trained as hounds are trained, ye teach them that which Allah taught you; so eat of that which they catch for you and mention Allah's name upon it, and observe your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is swift to take account.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|5|7}}|Remember Allah's grace upon you and His covenant by which He bound you when ye said: We hear and we obey; And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! He knoweth what is in the breasts (of men).}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|9|53}}|Say: Pay (your contribution), willingly or unwillingly, it will not be accepted from you. Lo! ye were ever froward folk.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|47|21}}|Obedience and a civil word. Then, when the matter is determined, if they are loyal to Allah it will be well for them.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|49|16}}|The wandering Arabs say: We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|56|57}}|It is We Who have created you: why will ye not witness the Truth?}}
{{Quote|{{Quran|87|10}}|He who fears will mind,}}

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|4|52|203}}|Narrated Ibn 'Umar: The 'Prophet said, "It is obligatory for one to listen to and obey (the ruler's orders) unless these orders involve one disobedience (to Allah); but if an act of disobedience (to Allah) is imposed, he should not listen to or obey it."}}

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|9|89|256}}|Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle said, "You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian (black) slave whose head looks like a raisin."}}

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|9|89|258}}|Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "A Muslim has to listen to and obey (the order of his ruler) whether he likes it or not, as long as his orders involve not one in disobedience (to Allah), but if an act of disobedience (to Allah) is imposed one should not listen to it or obey it. (See Hadith No. 203, Vol. 4)}}

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|9|92|384}}|Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "All my followers will enter Paradise except those who refuse." They said, "O Allah's Apostle! Who will refuse?" He said, "Whoever obeys me will enter Paradise, and whoever disobeys me is the one who refuses (to enter it)." }}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|20|4604}}|It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar who said: We used to take oath to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) that we would listen to and obey his orders. He would tell us (to say in the oath): As far as it lies in my power.}}

{{Quote|Ishaq:322|'''Allah said, ‘Do not turn away from Muhammad when he is speaking to you. Do not contradict his orders.''' And do not be a hypocrite, one who pretends to be obedient to him and then disobeys him. Those who do so will receive My vengeance. '''You must respond to the Apostle when he summons you to war.'''}}

{{Quote|{{Tabari|8|p. 182}}|The people assembled in Mecca to swear allegiance to the Messenger in submission. He received from them the oath of allegiance to himself, to heed and obey.}}

===The Qur'an Should Not Fall Into The Hands of Infidels===

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|4|52|233}}|Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle forbade the people to travel to a hostile country carrying (copies of) the Quran.}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|20|4609}}|It has been narrated on the authority of Ibn 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Do not take the Qur'an on a journey with you, for I am afraid lost it should fall into the hands of the enemy. Ayyub (one of the narrators in the chain of transmitters) said: The enemy may seize it and may quarrel with you over it.|See also: {{Muslim|20|4607}}, and {{Muslim|20|4608}}}}

===Don't Ask Too Many Questions===

{{Quote|1={{Quran|5|101-102}}|2=O ye who believe! '''Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble'''. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.}}

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|2|24|555}}, see also {{Bukhari|3|41|591}}| Narrated Ash-sha'bi:

The clerk of Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba narrated, "Muawiya wrote to Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba: Write to me something which you have heard from the Prophet (p.b.u.h) ." So Al-Mughira wrote: I heard the Prophet saying, "Allah has hated for you three things:

1. Vain talks, (useless talk) that you talk too much or about others.

2. Wasting of wealth (by extravagance)

3. '''And asking too many questions (in disputed religious matters)''' or asking others for something (except in great need). (See Hadith No. 591, Vol. Ill), }}

{{Quote|{{Abudawud|40|4586}}|Narrated AbuHurayrah:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Controverting about the Qur'an is disbelief.}}

{{Quote|Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur'an, vol. III, pgs. 76-77|"'''The Holy Prophet himself forbade people to ask questions ...so do not try to probe into such things.'''"}}

{{Quote|1=[http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=14747 Unnecessary Questioning is Disapproved of] Tafsir Ibn Kathir|2=(O you who believe! Ask not about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble...)." Imam Ahmad recorded that `Ali said, "When this Ayah was revealed,

(And Hajj to the House is a duty that mankind owes to Allah, those who can bear the journey.)[3:97], they asked, `O Allah's Messenger! Is it required every year' He did not answer them, and they asked again, `Is it every year' He still did not answer them, so they asked, `Is it every year' He said,

(No, and had I said `yes', it would have become obligated, and had it become obligated, you would not be able to bear it.) Allah sent down,

(O you who believe! Ask not about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.)." At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah also recorded this Hadith. The apparent wording of this Ayah indicates that '''we are forbidden to ask about things that if one has knowledge of, he would be sorry he had asked. Consequently, it is better to avoid such questions'''.}}

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:QHS]]

Sahih

2015-03-06T22:18:46Z

Heitri2:

'''Sahih''' (صَحِيْح) is an Arabic word that means genuine/authentic/sound. It is used in classification of [[hadith|ahadith]] and is the highest level of authenticity given to a narration that passes all of Imam Bukhari's criteria for classification as a sahih hadith. The ahadith (sayings/narrations/reports) are contemporaneous accounts about [[Muhammad]], his life, and the life of his [[Sahabah|companions]]. Whereas the [[Qur'an]] was written down in book form and later codified by Caliph Uthman, the ahadith did not benefit from such a process, but instead were passed down orally from person to person, until a collector of ahadith came to record them (often many hundreds of years later).

== Bukhari's Criteria ==
Muhammad al-Bukhari (Muhammad Ibn Ismail Ibn Ibrahim Ibn al-Mughirah Ibn Bardizbah al-Bukhari) was an Islamic scholar and collector of ahadith. When he set out to collect narrations he decided on a set of criterion that he would use to determine the authenticity of what he was collecting. Any narrations that he collected that did not pass these requirements would not be accepted into his collection. Because he used these criteria, his collection is known today as 'Sahih al Bukhari.' Some years later, his student Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj (Abul Husayn Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj Qushayri al-Nishapuri) would use the same criteria to guide his collection. Muslim's collection is known as 'Sahih Muslim.' These are the only two ahadith collections that are prefixed as whole by 'Sahih.' These two Sunni ahadith collections are accepted by Sunni Muslims to be Sahih as a whole, although this does not mean that every single narration included in both collections is Sahih, nor does this preclude narrations in ''other'' collections from being sahih also.

Imam Bukhari came up with 3 criteria which he used to determine whether or not a narration was sahih or not. They are:

=== Isnad ===
The isnad, or sanad, is the chain of narrators. Since the narrations were passed orally from person to person, it is important to know who heard the narration from whom before themselves. So if Bukhari collects from Person D, he wants to know who person C, B & A were (of course the isnads are longer).

=== 'Adl ===
This refers to the reputation of each Muslim sub narrator in the isnad. Each 'link' in the chain must be established first, then the reputation/character of each 'link' must be evaluated. If they were known as a pious, honest Muslim, then the narration passes this criteria; however if one (or more) of the 'links' was a known liar, or had doubtful character, then the narration did not pass and was rejected.

=== Mat'n ===
The contents of the narration must not be in contradiction with the Qur'an. For example, there are narrations that state that [[Muhammads Miracles|Muhammad performed miracles]]; but the Qur'an makes clear that he did ''not'' - so even though some of these 'miracle' ahadith can be found in the Sahih collections, we know that they fail this criteria, so they can be discarded as 'sahih.' The exception to this rule are of course, the narrations regarded by scholars to be Qudsi (hadith which contain non-Qur'anic words from Allah, repeated by Muhammad). These narrations may contradict the Qur'an, but this does not mean they are not Sahih.

== Further Classification ==
Previous collectors of ahadith had attempted to come up with criteria to establish authority and authenticity of the different narrations they collected, but none were as stringent as Imam Bukhari's.

=== Mutawatir ===
Mutawatir means 'corroborated.' This occurs when a narration (with minor variation or word for word) is passed down through different isnads (chains). If the same/similar narration is passed down through 20 isnads, then it is of higher authenticity than one which may be reported through only 2 isnads (especially if they contradict). This classification can be joined with other classifications; for example, if a narration were both 'sahih' and 'mutawatir' then it is of the highest authenticity regarding classification of ahadith.

=== Hasan ===
Hasan means that the narration is good. It is not as good as 'sahih', but this was the standard for classification before Imam Bukhari's criteria. Of course this does not mean that the narration itself is not authentic, but that there should be supporting evidence (i.e. other stronger narrations) to support the information in it.

=== Da'if ===
Da'if means that the narration is weak - usually caused by a problem or doubt about the isnad or one or more of the reporters in the isnad. Again this does not mean the narration is an outright forgery, but that it should be supported by stronger narrations.

=== Maudu ===
This classification places the narration at best, as doubtful, and at worst, an outright forgery. This is the weakest of classifications.

== Example of Bukhari's Criteria ==
Let us use [[Aishas Age of Consummation|Aisha's age of consummation]] as an example of how a historical detail can be shown to be reliable:
[[Image:Sahih.jpeg|thumb|right|400px|'''A''' = The Narrator (e.g. [[Aisha]]) '''B''' = Ahadith Collector (e.g. Bukhari)]]

The majority of the narrations in Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari are narrated by Aisha herself. This places her as the 'start point' of the isnad. However let us take some creative license with who she told (isnad) and their character ('adl) so that we can better illustrate the ''point'' of Bukhari's criteria and the inherent problems with a 'telephone game' hundreds of years long.

If Aisha only passed the narration of her age onto 3 people (It's Aisha who tells us how old she is - hence "narrated Aisha"). The people and colored strips connecting them, in the diagram to the right, represent the different chain of narrators (isnad).

If there happened to be a chain that Bukhari 'caught' the end of (represented by the black strip in the diagram), that does not connect back up to Aisha, or there was a 'weak link' (an untrustworthy Muslim, represented by the red person in the diagram), then that narration would not be accepted.

So Bukhari goes to collect the narrations, and he finds 6 people who do not know each other, who report to him the exact same narration regarding Aisha - including all the details; i.e. that she was 6 & 9 when married and consummated.

== Claim of Non Authenticity ==
A lot of Muslims will declare any narration that they do not like as 'unauthentic.' However, since we are playing by their own rules (their classifications for ahadith), the onus is on ''them'' to show ''how'' the narrations are unauthentic. If they are dealing with Sahih Muslim or Sahih Bukhari, then they must address Bukhari's criteria and bring the evidence to show which criteria/s the narration fails on. If they cannot, then it is their duty as a ahadith accepting Muslim to accept the narration until they can show which criteria it fails.

For example, in the modern age, many Muslims find it abhorrent that Muhammad had sex with a child, so the sahih ahadith where Aisha tells you her age are often contested by Muslims and declared 'unauthentic', but let us have look at how many there are; we can [[Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Aisha#Aisha.27s_Age_at_Consummation_and_Marriage|count]] them. Bearing in mind that for each narration in each collection, it was actually passed down through different isnads. There are a lot more 'chains' than the example picture shown above. The details of the narrations are consistent across collections (ie. Tabari, Ishaq, Muslim, Bukhari, Dawud etc..) so that rules out the possibility that the collector made them up or a specific area had incorporated a cultural practice into Islam, and even one sahih narration is enough to form a part of [[shari'ah]].

In short, with these narrations, given the plenitude of them, also the fact that they are 'Sahih' and 'Mutawatir', when dealing with ahadith, this is the closest you can get to: "yes this definitely happened." Therefore the onus is on the Muslim to use his own criteria to disqualify the narration and not on the opponent to prove it is authentic, because they are in Sahih collections.

{{Core Scripture}}
==See Also==

{{Hub4|Hadith|Hadith}}

==External Links==

*[http://www.webcitation.org/6WptpyJvH The Classification Of Hadith: According To The Reliability And Memory Of Reporters]
[[Category:Terms and Definitions]]
[[Category:Sani]]
[[ru:Сахих]]

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:The Islamic Tradition Itself

2015-03-06T18:09:45Z

Heitri2:

{{QuranHadithScholarsIndex}}
==Qur'an, Hadith and Sunnah==

===Understanding Scripture===

====Abrogation====

{{Quote|{{Quran|2|106}}|None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|13|39}}|Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|16|101}}|And when We change (one) communication for (another) communication, and Allah knows best what He reveals, they say: You are only a forger. Nay, most of them do not know.}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|3|675}}|The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) abrogated some of his commands by others, '''just as the Qur'an abrogates''' some part with the other.}}

See related: [[Abrogation]]

====The Qur'an is Easy to Understand====

{{Quote|{{Quran|44|58}}|Verily, We have made this (Qur'an) easy, in thy tongue, in order that they may give heed.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|54|17}}|And '''We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand''' and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?|See also: {{Quran|54|22}}, {{Quran|54|32}}, and {{Quran|54|40}}}}

====Muslims Should Not Incorrectly Interpret Scripture====

Anyone interpreting the verses beyond their obvious meaning is misguided

{{Quote|{{Quran|3|7}}|He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; '''then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and ''seeking to give it (their own) interpretation.''''' but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.}}

===Hadith and Sunnah===

The Sunnah is an integral part of Islam.

====Emulate Muhammad====

{{quote | {{cite quran|3|131|end=132|style=ref}} | Fear the Fire, which is repaired for those who reject Faith: 
And obey Allah and the Messenger; that ye may obtain mercy.}}
{{Quote|{{Quran|4|59}}|O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.}}
{{quote | {{cite quran|4|64|end=66|style=ref}} | And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful. 
But no! by your Lord! they do not believe (in reality) until they make you a judge of that which has become a matter of disagreement among them, and then do not find any straitness in their hearts as to what you have decided and submit with entire submission. 
But no! by your Lord! they do not believe (in reality) until they make you a judge of that which has become a matter of disagreement among them, and then do not find any straitness in their hearts as to what you have decided and submit with entire submission.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|4|69}}|And whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they!}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|4|80}}|'''He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah''': But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).}}

{{quote | {{cite quran|4|113|end=115|style=ref}} | But for the grace of Allah upon thee (Muhammad), and His mercy, a party of them had resolved to mislead thee, but they will mislead only themselves and they will hurt thee not at all. Allah revealeth unto thee the Scripture and wisdom, and teacheth thee that which thou knewest not. The grace of Allah toward thee hath been infinite. 
There is no good in much of their secret conferences save (in) him who enjoineth almsgiving and kindness and peace-making among the people. Whoso doeth that, seeking the good pleasure of Allah, We shall bestow on him a vast reward. 
And whoso opposeth the messenger after the guidance (of Allah) hath been manifested unto him, and followeth other than the believer's way, We appoint for him that unto which he himself hath turned, and expose him unto hell - a hapless journey's end!}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|5|92}}|Obey Allah and obey the messenger, and beware! But if ye turn away, then know that the duty of Our messenger is only plain conveyance (of the message).}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|8|24}}|O ye who believe! '''Obey Allah, and the messenger when He calleth you to that which quickeneth you''', and know that Allah cometh in between the man and his own heart, and that He it is unto Whom ye will be gathered.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|8|46}}|And obey Allah and His Messenger; and fall into no disputes, lest ye lose heart and your power depart; and be patient and persevering: For Allah is with those who patiently persevere:}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|21|107}}|We sent thee not, but as a Mercy for all creatures.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|24|53}}|They swear their strongest oaths by Allah that, if only thou wouldst command them, they would leave (their homes). Say: "Swear ye not; Obedience is (more) reasonable; verily, Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do."}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|33|21}}|Verily '''in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah''' and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|33|36}}|It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|47|33}}|'''O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the messenger''', and render not your actions vain.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|48|10}}|Lo! those who swear allegiance unto thee (Muhammad), swear allegiance only unto Allah. The Hand of Allah is above their hands. So whosoever breaketh his oath, breaketh it only to his soul's hurt; while whosoever keepeth his covenant with Allah, on him will He bestow immense reward.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|59|7}}|That which Allah giveth as spoil unto His messenger from the people of the townships, it is for Allah and His messenger and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, that it become not a commodity between the rich among you. '''And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it).''' And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|64|12}}|Obey Allah and obey His messenger; but if ye turn away, then the duty of Our messenger is only to convey (the message) plainly.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|68|4}}|And thou (standest) on an exalted standard of character.}}

====Emulate the Rightly-Guided Caliphs====

{{Quote|[http://www.islamworld.net/docs/nawawi.html#hadith28 Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadith, No. 28]|On the authority of Abu Najih Al-Erbadh bin Sariah, who said :

The messenger of Allah gave us a sermon by which our hearts were filled with fear and tears came to our eyes. We said: "O Messenger of Allah, it is as though this is a farewell sermon, so councel us." He said: "I councel you to fear Allah and to give absolute obedience even if a slave becomes your leader. Verily he among you who lives [long] will see great controversy, so you must keep to my sunnah and to the sunnah of the rightly-guided Khalifahs - cling to them stubbornly. Beware of newly invented matters, for every invented matter is an innovation and every innovation is a going astray, and every going astray is in Hell-fire."

related by Abu Dawud and Al-Tirmithi, who said that it was a fine and true Hadith.}}

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|4|56|675}}|Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Amongst the people preceding you there used to be 'Muhaddithun' (i.e. persons who can guess things that come true later on, as if those persons have been inspired by a divine power), and if there are any such persons amongst my followers, it is 'Umar bin Al-Khattab."}}

{{Quote|al-Waqidi|‘Ali: So what is stopping you from asking ‘Umar to make du’a for you? Do you know, Ibn Qurt, that his du’a is never rejected and always reaches Allah and that Rasulullah said in his regard: "Were there to be another prophet after me it would have been ‘Umar." Is he not that man whose decisions corresponded to that of the Quran until Rasulullah said, "Were punishment to fall from the sky to Earth, none would escape it except ‘Umar bin al-Khattab."

Do you not know that Allah revealed clear verses about him? Is he not ascetic, pious and always engaged in worship? Does he not greatly resemble the prophet Nuh? Should he offer du’a on your behalf it would be answered.<ref>Al-Imam al-Waqidi, The Islamic Conquest of Syria, A Translation of [http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/na_debate.htm Futuhusham: The Inspiring History of the Sahabah’s Conquest of Syria], translated by Mawlana Sulayman al-Kindi [Ta-Ha Publishers Ltd., London 2005], Part 3: Al-Yarmuk, pp. 287-288</ref>}}

====Muslims Must Follow the Sunnah====

{{Quote|{{Quran|4|83}}|When there comes to them some matter touching (Public) safety or fear, they divulge it. If they had only referred it to the Messenger, or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have Tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of Allah unto you, all but a few of you would have fallen into the clutches of Satan.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|49|14}}|The wandering Arabs say: We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.}}

{{Quote||Abdullah bin Amar (ra) relates that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said "Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier to Israelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resembles the other to the extent that if anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother there will be some who will do this in my Ummah as well, verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sections but my people will be divided into 73 sections, all of them will be in the fire except one." The companions asked, 'Who are they O Messenger of Allah,' Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "They are those who will be like me and my companions." (Hadith unverified)}}

{{Quote|{{Abu Dawud|40|4579}}|Narrated Abu Hurayrah (ra): The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: The Jews were split up into seventy-one or seventy-two sects; and the Christians were split up into seventy one or seventy-two sects; and my community will be split up into seventy-three sects.}}

{{Quote|{{Abu Dawud|1|42}}|Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Prophet (peace be upon him) urinated and Umar was standing behind him with a jug of water. He said: What is this, Umar? He replied: Water for you to perform ablution with. He said: I have not been commanded to perform ablution every time I urinate. If I were to do so, it would become a sunnah.}}

{{Quote|{{Abu Dawud|10|1794}}|Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab: As-Subayy ibn Ma'bad said: I raised my voice in talbiyah for both of them (i.e. umrah and hajj). Thereupon Umar said: You were guided to the practice (sunnah) of your Prophet (peace be upon him).|See also: {{Abu Dawud|10|1795}}}}

{{Quote|{{Abu Dawud|18|2879}}|Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Knowledge has three categories; anything else is extra; a precise verse, or an established sunnah (practice), or a firm obligatory duty.}}

{{Quote|{{Abu Dawud|24|3585}}|Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal: Some companions of Mu'adh ibn Jabal said: When the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) intended to send Mu'adh ibn Jabal to the Yemen, he asked: How will you judge when the occasion of deciding a case arises? He replied: I shall judge in accordance with Allah's Book. He asked: (What will you do) if you do not find any guidance in Allah's Book? He replied: (I shall act) in accordance with the Sunnah of the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him). He asked: (What will you do) if you do not find any guidance in the Sunnah of the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and in Allah's Book? He replied: I shall do my best to form an opinion and I shall spare no effort. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) then patted him on the breast and said: Praise be to Allah Who has helped the messenger of the Apostle of Allah to find something which pleases the Apostle of Allah.}}

{{Quote|Abu Dawud vol.3 no.4587-4589|In the future beware of people who hold only to the Qur’an and reject the Sunnah.}}

{{Quote|Abu Dawud vol.2 footnote 887|As it is necessary to obey the Qur’an, likewise it is necessary to follow the contents of the hadiths and sunna.}}

{{Quote|Abu Dawud vol.3 no.4595|There is no innovation after the Sunnah is established.}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|1|265}}|Hudhaifa reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) narrated to us two ahadith. I have seen one (crystallized into reality), and I am waiting for the other. He told us: Trustworthiness descended in the innermost (root) of the hearts of people. Then the Qur'an was revealed and they learnt from the Qur'an and they learnt from the Sunnah.}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|1|292}}|It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: What would you do when the son of Mary would descend amongst you and would lead you as one amongst you? Ibn Abi Dhi'b on the authority of Abu Huraira narrated: Your leader amongst you. Ibn Abi Dhi'b said: Do you know what the words:" He would lead as one amongst you" mean? I said: Explain these to me. He said: He would lead you according to the Book of your: Lord (hallowed be He and most exalted) and the Sunnah of your Apostle (may peace be upon him).}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|4|1151}}|He ('Umar) further said: Allah! I call You witness on these governors of lands, that I sent them to (the peoples of these lands) so that they should administer justice amongst them, teach them their religion and the Sunnah of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him), and distribute amongst them the spoils of war and refer to me that which they find difficult to perform.}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|7|2868}}|Abu Hassan al-A'raj reported that a person from Bani Hujaim said to Ibn 'Abbas (Allah be pleased with them): What is this religious verdict of yours which has engaged the attention of the people or which has become a matter of dispute among them that he who circumambulated the House can be free from Ihram? Thereupon he said: '''That is the Sunnah of your Apostle (may peace be upon him), even though you may not approve of it'''.|See also: {{Muslim|4|1566}}}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|8|3236}}|Anas (Allah be pleased with him) reported that some of the Companions of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) asked his (the Prophet's) wives about the acts that he performed in private. Someone among them (among his Companions) said: I will not marry women; someone among them said: I will not eat meat; and someone among them said: I will not lie down in bed. He (the Holy Prophet) praised Allah and glorified Him, and said: What has happened to these people that they say so and so, whereas I observe prayer and sleep too; I observe fast and suspend observing them; I marry women also? '''And he who turns away from my Sunnah, he has no relation with Me'''}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|9|3524}}|Abu Ishaq reported: I was with al-Aswad b. Yazid sitting in the great mosque, and there was with us al-Sha'bi, and he narrated the narration of Fatima bint Qais (Allah be pleased with her) that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) did not make any provision for lodging and maintenance allowance for her. Al-Aswad caught hold of some pebbles in his fist and he threw them towards him saying: Woe be to thee, you narrate like it, whereas Umar said: We cannot abandon the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of our Apostle (may peace be upon him) for the words of a woman. We do not know whether she remembers that or she forgets. For her, there is a provision of lodging and maintenance allowance. Allah, the Exalted and Majestic, said:" Turn them not from their houses nor should they themselves go forth unless they commit an open indecency" (lxv. 1).}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|31|5948}}|Anas reported that the people of Yemen came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Send with us a person who should teach us Sunnah and al-Islam, whereupon he (the Holy Prophet) caught hold of the hand of Ubaida and said: He is a man of trust of this Umma.|See also: {{Abu Dawud|18|2888}}}}

{{Quote|Sunan Nasa'i, translated by Muhammad Iqbal Siddiqi|The Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad is therefore, next to Qur'an, the second source of Islamic law and social and personal behavior. In fact we must regard the Sunnah as the only valid explanation of the Qur'anic teachings and the only means to avoid dissensions concerning their interpretation and adaptation to practical use. The Messenger of Allah said 'I am leaving you two things amongst you after my death... the one is the Qur'an and the other is my sunnah or Hadith.' Following hadith therefore is as important as following the injunctions of Qur'an, without which the religion of Islam would be incomplete and would create dissensions among the believers.}}

{{Quote|1=[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/3440/fabricated%2520hadeeth|2=2012-02-02}} The misguided sect of al-Qur’aaniyyeen] Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 3440|2=Ahmad, Abu Dawood and al-Haakim reported with a saheeh isnaad from al-Miqdaam that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Soon there will be a time when a man will be reclining on his couch, narrating a hadeeth from me, and he will say, ‘Between us and you is the Book of Allaah: what it says is halaal, we take as halaal, and what it says is haraam, we take as haraam.’ But listen! Whatever the Messenger of Allaah forbids is like what Allaah forbids.” (Al-Fath al-Kabeer, 3/438. Al-Tirmidhi reported it with different wording, and said that it is hasan saheeh. Sunan al-Tirmidhi bi Sharh Ibn al-‘Arabi, al-Saawi edn., 10/132).}}

{{Quote|Ibn Majah Vol. 3, Book 9, Hadith 1846|It was narrated from Aishah that:

the Messenger of Allah said: “Marriage is part of my sunnah, and '''whoever does not follow my sunnah has nothing to do with me'''. Get married, for I will boast of your great numbers before the nations. Whoever has that means, let him get married, and whoever does not, then he should fast for it will diminish his desire.” (Hasan)}}

{{Quote|Ibn Majah Vol. 3, Book 9, Hadith 1989|It was narrated that 'Abdulleh said:

"The Messenger of Allah cursed the woman who does tattoos and the one who has them done, and those who pluck their eyebrows and file their teeth for the purpose of beautification, and those who change the creation of Allah." News of that reached a woman of Banu Asad who was called Umm Ya'qub. She came to him and said: "I have heard that you said such and such." He said: 'Why should I not curse those whom the Messenger of Allah cursed ? '''And it is in the Book of Allah." She said: "I read what is between its two covers 'and I have not found that." He said: "If you read it properly you would have found it. Have you not read the words: 'And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad) gives you, take it; and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it).'?" She said: "Of course." He said: 'The Messenger of Allah forbade that."''' She said: 'I think that your wife does it.' He said: " Go and look." So she went and looked and she did not see what she wanted. She said: "I have not seen anything!’ 'Abdullah said: "If she was as you say, I would not have kept her with me. " (Sahih)}}

====The First 3 Generations of Muslims are the Best Muslims====

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|8|78|652}}|Narrated 'Abdullah:

The Prophet was asked, "Who are the best people?" He replied: The people of my generation, and then those who will follow (come after) them, and then those who will come after the later; after that there will come some people whose witness will precede their oaths and their oaths will go ahead of their witness." Ibrahim (a sub-narrator) said, "When we were young, our elder friends used to prohibit us from taking oaths by saying, 'I bear witness swearing by Allah, or by Allah's Covenant."'}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|31|6159}}|'A'isha reported that a person asked Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as to who amongst the people were the best. He said: Of the generation to which I belong, then of the second generation (generation adjacent to my generation), then of the third generation (generation adjacent to the second generation).}}

====Free Will====

{{Quote|{{Quran|3|19}}|'''Lo! religion with Allah (is) the Surrender (to His Will and Guidance).''' Those who (formerly) received the Scripture differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves. Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of Allah (will find that) lo! Allah is swift at reckoning.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|5|4}}|They ask thee (O Muhammad) what is made lawful for them. Say: (all) good things are made lawful for you. And those beasts and birds of prey which ye have trained as hounds are trained, ye teach them that which Allah taught you; so eat of that which they catch for you and mention Allah's name upon it, and observe your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is swift to take account.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|5|7}}|Remember Allah's grace upon you and His covenant by which He bound you when ye said: We hear and we obey; And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! He knoweth what is in the breasts (of men).}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|9|53}}|Say: Pay (your contribution), willingly or unwillingly, it will not be accepted from you. Lo! ye were ever froward folk.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|47|21}}|Obedience and a civil word. Then, when the matter is determined, if they are loyal to Allah it will be well for them.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|49|16}}|The wandering Arabs say: We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.}}

{{Quote|{{Quran|56|57}}|It is We Who have created you: why will ye not witness the Truth?}}
{{Quote|{{Quran|87|10}}|He who fears will mind,}}

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|4|52|203}}|Narrated Ibn 'Umar: The 'Prophet said, "It is obligatory for one to listen to and obey (the ruler's orders) unless these orders involve one disobedience (to Allah); but if an act of disobedience (to Allah) is imposed, he should not listen to or obey it."}}

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|9|89|256}}|Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle said, "You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian (black) slave whose head looks like a raisin."}}

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|9|89|258}}|Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "A Muslim has to listen to and obey (the order of his ruler) whether he likes it or not, as long as his orders involve not one in disobedience (to Allah), but if an act of disobedience (to Allah) is imposed one should not listen to it or obey it. (See Hadith No. 203, Vol. 4)}}

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|9|92|384}}|Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "All my followers will enter Paradise except those who refuse." They said, "O Allah's Apostle! Who will refuse?" He said, "Whoever obeys me will enter Paradise, and whoever disobeys me is the one who refuses (to enter it)." }}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|20|4604}}|It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar who said: We used to take oath to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) that we would listen to and obey his orders. He would tell us (to say in the oath): As far as it lies in my power.}}

{{Quote|Ishaq:322|'''Allah said, ‘Do not turn away from Muhammad when he is speaking to you. Do not contradict his orders.''' And do not be a hypocrite, one who pretends to be obedient to him and then disobeys him. Those who do so will receive My vengeance. '''You must respond to the Apostle when he summons you to war.'''}}

{{Quote|{{Tabari|8|p. 182}}|The people assembled in Mecca to swear allegiance to the Messenger in submission. He received from them the oath of allegiance to himself, to heed and obey.}}

===The Qur'an Should Not Fall Into The Hands of Infidels===

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|4|52|233}}|Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle forbade the people to travel to a hostile country carrying (copies of) the Quran.}}

{{Quote|{{Muslim|20|4609}}|It has been narrated on the authority of Ibn 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Do not take the Qur'an on a journey with you, for I am afraid lost it should fall into the hands of the enemy. Ayyub (one of the narrators in the chain of transmitters) said: The enemy may seize it and may quarrel with you over it.|See also: {{Muslim|20|4607}}, and {{Muslim|20|4608}}}}

===Don't Ask Too Many Questions===

{{Quote|1={{Quran|5|101-102}}|2=O ye who believe! '''Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble'''. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.}}

{{Quote|{{Bukhari|2|24|555}}| Narrated Ash-sha'bi:

The clerk of Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba narrated, "Muawiya wrote to Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba: Write to me something which you have heard from the Prophet (p.b.u.h) ." So Al-Mughira wrote: I heard the Prophet saying, "Allah has hated for you three things:

1. Vain talks, (useless talk) that you talk too much or about others.

2. Wasting of wealth (by extravagance)

3. '''And asking too many questions (in disputed religious matters)''' or asking others for something (except in great need). (See Hadith No. 591, Vol. Ill) }}

{{Quote|Narrated AbuHurayrah:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Controverting about the Qur'an is disbelief.
{{Abudawud|40|4586}}}}

{{Quote|Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur'an, vol. III, pgs. 76-77|"'''The Holy Prophet himself forbade people to ask questions ...so do not try to probe into such things.'''"}}

{{Quote|1=[http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=14747 Unnecessary Questioning is Disapproved of] Tafsir Ibn Kathir|2=(O you who believe! Ask not about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble...)." Imam Ahmad recorded that `Ali said, "When this Ayah was revealed,

(And Hajj to the House is a duty that mankind owes to Allah, those who can bear the journey.)[3:97], they asked, `O Allah's Messenger! Is it required every year' He did not answer them, and they asked again, `Is it every year' He still did not answer them, so they asked, `Is it every year' He said,

(No, and had I said `yes', it would have become obligated, and had it become obligated, you would not be able to bear it.) Allah sent down,

(O you who believe! Ask not about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.)." At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah also recorded this Hadith. The apparent wording of this Ayah indicates that '''we are forbidden to ask about things that if one has knowledge of, he would be sorry he had asked. Consequently, it is better to avoid such questions'''.}}

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:QHS]]