Quran and a Universe from Smoke - Revision history

Lightyears at 13:45, 16 February 2026

2026-02-16T13:45:14Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:45, 16 February 2026
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	===Single-Word Description===		===Single-Word Description===
	The claim presupposes that the Qur'anic author must describe the earliest phase of the universe using a single word. However, no one would be convinced if a scientist, purporting to be an expert in cosmology, put together a paper on the formation of stars and only described it in a single word. Even apologists realize that a single-word description is not adequate to convey such a complex topic, which is why they ~~use~~ give lengthy explanations to make their point. The idea that a single word would carry so much weight would not be in keeping with a "clear" book revealed by [[Allah]]~~, for~~ such powerful revelations more explanation is clearly required.		The claim presupposes that the Qur'anic author must describe the earliest phase of the universe using a single word. However, no one would be convinced if a scientist, purporting to be an expert in cosmology, put together a paper on the formation of stars and only described it in a single word. Even apologists realize that a single-word description is not adequate to convey such a complex topic, which is why they give lengthy explanations to make their point. The idea that a single word would carry so much weight would not be in keeping with a "clear" book revealed by [[Allah]]. For such powerful revelations more explanation is clearly required.

	This lack of detail is further highlighted by the depth and loquaciousness used by the author of the Qur'an on other topics. The author explains in detail [[Cousin Marriage in Islamic Law\|who you can and cannot marry]] and how [[Critical Analysis: Inheritance Laws\|an inheritance can be divided]]. The Qur'an also retells stories multiple times. Based on these facts, it is difficult to rationalize why such sparse details were used to describe something as complex as the formation of the universe, especially when such information could have validated the authenticity of the Qur'anic message.		This lack of detail is further highlighted by the depth and loquaciousness used by the author of the Qur'an on other topics. The author explains in detail [[Cousin Marriage in Islamic Law\|who you can and cannot marry]] and how [[Critical Analysis: Inheritance Laws\|an inheritance can be divided]]. The Qur'an also retells stories multiple times. Based on these facts, it is difficult to rationalize why such sparse details were used to describe something as complex as the formation of the universe, especially when such information could have validated the authenticity of the Qur'anic message.
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	The Qur'an also describes the process of creation of both the 'heavens', stars, and the Earth and its sustenance as one with continuous active participation from God (i.e., not just for the creation of existence itself), rather than a natural consequence of the rules of physics once the initial universe was created, contrary to modern scientific theories which have mapped out the process (based on physics) from the Big Bang to the present moment.<ref>''[https://science.nasa.gov/mission/webb/early-universe/ Early Universe: Search for the first galaxies or luminous objects that formed after the big bang]''. James Webb Space Telescope. NASA.</ref><ref>''[https://science.nasa.gov/mission/webb/early-universe/ The Big Bang.]'' NASA.</ref>		The Qur'an also describes the process of creation of both the 'heavens', stars, and the Earth and its sustenance as one with continuous active participation from God (i.e., not just for the creation of existence itself), rather than a natural consequence of the rules of physics once the initial universe was created, contrary to modern scientific theories which have mapped out the process (based on physics) from the Big Bang to the present moment.<ref>''[https://science.nasa.gov/mission/webb/early-universe/ Early Universe: Search for the first galaxies or luminous objects that formed after the big bang]''. James Webb Space Telescope. NASA.</ref><ref>''[https://science.nasa.gov/mission/webb/early-universe/ The Big Bang.]'' NASA.</ref>

	These verses also states the 'lamps, which are stars, were created/put in the ~~caven~~ after the Earth was already in existence, contrary to scientific consensus that the stars were ~~crelosest heated~~ first (and are continuously being destroyed and created naturally), with our own sun considered to be a third generation star.<ref>''[https://mobile.arc.nasa.gov/public/iexplore/missions/pages/yss/november.html Formation of the Solar System: Birth of Worlds.]'' Mobile.arc. NASA.</ref> In fact the majority of elements that make up Earth are believed to come from stars.<ref>''[https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/are-we-really-made-of-stardust.html Are we made of stardust?]'' Kerry Lotzof quoting Dr Ashley King. Natural History Museum website. </ref> There is also no differentiation in the process between the creation stars and planets (which formed similarly and at a cosmically similar time to Earth in our solar system) which were both believed to make up the lamps in the sky, as planets were believed to simply be moving stars.<ref>See for example [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Fixed_Stars ''The Book of Fixed Stars''] by Abd al-Rahman al-Sufi ~ 964AD. Only after [https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/moon/galileos-observations-of-the-moon-jupiter-venus-and-the-sun/ Galileo's direct observations] (d. 1642) from his refined telescope did the understanding of them as 'worlds' begin to become more widespread.		These verses also states the 'lamps, which are stars, were created/put in the closest heaven after the Earth was already in existence, contrary to scientific consensus that the stars were created first (and are continuously being destroyed and created naturally), with our own sun considered to be a third generation star.<ref>''[https://mobile.arc.nasa.gov/public/iexplore/missions/pages/yss/november.html Formation of the Solar System: Birth of Worlds.]'' Mobile.arc. NASA.</ref> In fact the majority of elements that make up Earth are believed to come from stars.<ref>''[https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/are-we-really-made-of-stardust.html Are we made of stardust?]'' Kerry Lotzof quoting Dr Ashley King. Natural History Museum website. </ref> There is also no differentiation in the process between the creation stars and planets (which formed similarly and at a cosmically similar time to Earth in our solar system) which were both believed to make up the lamps in the sky, as planets were believed to simply be moving stars.<ref>See for example [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Fixed_Stars ''The Book of Fixed Stars''] by Abd al-Rahman al-Sufi ~ 964AD. Only after [https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/moon/galileos-observations-of-the-moon-jupiter-venus-and-the-sun/ Galileo's direct observations] (d. 1642) from his refined telescope did the understanding of them as 'worlds' begin to become more widespread.

	</ref>		</ref>

Asmith: /* Qur'anic Verse in Context */ fixing language

2026-01-26T07:38:47Z

Qur'anic Verse in Context: fixing language

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:38, 26 January 2026
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	This lack of detail is further highlighted by the depth and loquaciousness used by the author of the Qur'an on other topics. The author explains in detail [[Cousin Marriage in Islamic Law\|who you can and cannot marry]] and how [[Critical Analysis: Inheritance Laws\|an inheritance can be divided]]. The Qur'an also retells stories multiple times. Based on these facts, it is difficult to rationalize why such sparse details were used to describe something as complex as the formation of the universe, especially when such information could have validated the authenticity of the Qur'anic message.		This lack of detail is further highlighted by the depth and loquaciousness used by the author of the Qur'an on other topics. The author explains in detail [[Cousin Marriage in Islamic Law\|who you can and cannot marry]] and how [[Critical Analysis: Inheritance Laws\|an inheritance can be divided]]. The Qur'an also retells stories multiple times. Based on these facts, it is difficult to rationalize why such sparse details were used to describe something as complex as the formation of the universe, especially when such information could have validated the authenticity of the Qur'anic message.
	===Nebulea and Milky Way===		===Nebulea and Milky Way===
	The apologist claim then makes use of images of distant nebulae only visible through the aid of modern telescopes. These wispy, red and pink clouds of hydrogen gas are supposed to provide a visual connection to smoke. On the surface the comparison seems warranted. However, smoke is a thick, billowing substance that is always black, gray, or white. Given this fact, another image of the night sky is far more reminiscent of smoke than the distant nebulae above, and it can be seen with the naked eye right here on earth. It does not require divine revelation nor advanced scientific instruments to imagine the Milky Way as a cloud of smoke in the night sky. It is easy to see how someone in the 7<sup>th</sup> century looking up from the desert could have invented this myth.[[File:Milky Way Arch.jpg\|center\|500px]]<center><small>The Milky Way as observed from earth (fisheye view)</small></center>[[File:Forest fire.jpg\|center\|500px]]<center><small>Cloud of smoke rising on the horizon</small></center>		The apologist's claim then makes use of images of distant nebulae only visible through the aid of modern telescopes. These wispy, red and pink clouds of hydrogen gas are supposed to provide a visual connection to smoke. On the surface the comparison seems warranted. However, smoke is a thick, billowing substance that is always black, gray, or white. Given this fact, another image of the night sky is far more reminiscent of smoke than the distant nebulae above, and it can be seen with the naked eye right here on earth. It does not require divine revelation nor advanced scientific instruments to imagine the Milky Way as a cloud of smoke in the night sky. It is easy to see how someone in the 7<sup>th</sup> century looking up from the desert could have invented this myth.[[File:Milky Way Arch.jpg\|center\|500px]]<center><small>The Milky Way as observed from earth (fisheye view)</small></center>[[File:Forest fire.jpg\|center\|500px]]<center><small>Cloud of smoke rising on the horizon</small></center>
	===Qur'anic Verse in Context===		===Qur'anic Verse in Context===
	After a description of the hot, dense, plasma of the early universe as "smoke" and the use of images of distant nebulae, the apologist then claims that the Qur'an is describing this early phase of the universe:{{Quote\|\|The illuminating stars we see at night were, just as was the whole universe, in that ‘smoke’ material. God has said in the Quran:		After a description of the hot, dense, plasma of the early universe as "smoke" and the use of images of distant nebulae, the apologist then claims that the Qur'an is describing this early phase of the universe:{{Quote\|\|The illuminating stars we see at night were, just as was the whole universe, in that ‘smoke’ material. God has said in the Quran:
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	The Qur'an also describes the process of creation of both the 'heavens', stars, and the Earth and its sustenance as one with continuous active participation from God (i.e., not just for the creation of existence itself), rather than a natural consequence of the rules of physics once the initial universe was created, contrary to modern scientific theories which have mapped out the process (based on physics) from the Big Bang to the present moment.<ref>''[https://science.nasa.gov/mission/webb/early-universe/ Early Universe: Search for the first galaxies or luminous objects that formed after the big bang]''. James Webb Space Telescope. NASA.</ref><ref>''[https://science.nasa.gov/mission/webb/early-universe/ The Big Bang.]'' NASA.</ref>		The Qur'an also describes the process of creation of both the 'heavens', stars, and the Earth and its sustenance as one with continuous active participation from God (i.e., not just for the creation of existence itself), rather than a natural consequence of the rules of physics once the initial universe was created, contrary to modern scientific theories which have mapped out the process (based on physics) from the Big Bang to the present moment.<ref>''[https://science.nasa.gov/mission/webb/early-universe/ Early Universe: Search for the first galaxies or luminous objects that formed after the big bang]''. James Webb Space Telescope. NASA.</ref><ref>''[https://science.nasa.gov/mission/webb/early-universe/ The Big Bang.]'' NASA.</ref>

	These verses also states the 'lamps, which are stars, were created/put in the ~~closest heaven~~ after the Earth was already in existence, contrary to scientific consensus that the stars were ~~created~~ first (and are continuously being destroyed and created naturally), with our own sun considered to be a third generation star.<ref>''[https://mobile.arc.nasa.gov/public/iexplore/missions/pages/yss/november.html Formation of the Solar System: Birth of Worlds.]'' Mobile.arc. NASA.</ref> In fact the majority of elements that make up Earth are believed to come from stars.<ref>''[https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/are-we-really-made-of-stardust.html Are we made of stardust?]'' Kerry Lotzof quoting Dr Ashley King. Natural History Museum website. </ref> There is also no differentiation in the process between the creation stars and planets (which formed similarly and at a cosmically similar time to Earth in our solar system) which were both believed to make up the lamps in the sky, as planets were believed to simply be moving stars.<ref>See for example [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Fixed_Stars ''The Book of Fixed Stars''] by Abd al-Rahman al-Sufi ~ 964AD. Only after [https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/moon/galileos-observations-of-the-moon-jupiter-venus-and-the-sun/ Galileo's direct observations] (d. 1642) from his refined telescope did the understanding of them as 'worlds' begin to become more widespread.		These verses also states the 'lamps, which are stars, were created/put in the caven after the Earth was already in existence, contrary to scientific consensus that the stars were crelosest heated first (and are continuously being destroyed and created naturally), with our own sun considered to be a third generation star.<ref>''[https://mobile.arc.nasa.gov/public/iexplore/missions/pages/yss/november.html Formation of the Solar System: Birth of Worlds.]'' Mobile.arc. NASA.</ref> In fact the majority of elements that make up Earth are believed to come from stars.<ref>''[https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/are-we-really-made-of-stardust.html Are we made of stardust?]'' Kerry Lotzof quoting Dr Ashley King. Natural History Museum website. </ref> There is also no differentiation in the process between the creation stars and planets (which formed similarly and at a cosmically similar time to Earth in our solar system) which were both believed to make up the lamps in the sky, as planets were believed to simply be moving stars.<ref>See for example [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Fixed_Stars ''The Book of Fixed Stars''] by Abd al-Rahman al-Sufi ~ 964AD. Only after [https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/moon/galileos-observations-of-the-moon-jupiter-venus-and-the-sun/ Galileo's direct observations] (d. 1642) from his refined telescope did the understanding of them as 'worlds' begin to become more widespread.

	</ref>		</ref>
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	The final piece of evidence is the claim that a renowned geologist supports the view that the information in the Qur'an could not have been of human origin:{{quote\|\|Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. He said: “Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case.” Also he said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin.”}}While Dr. Alfred Kroner was a geology professor in Germany, he never endorsed the Qur'an as being an accurate source of scientific information. A video interview conducted with Kroner in 2011 confirms that his comments from the 80s were taken out of context.<ref>{{cite web\|url= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClHuG880pqU\|title= Alfred Kröner - Quote mined scientist denounces Quran miracle claims\|publisher= YouTube (video)\|author= TheRationalizer\|date= March 21, 2011\|archiveurl= \|deadurl=no}}</ref> He currently does not endorse the Qur'anic view of creation nor did he at the time of the original interview. He affirms that parts of the Qur'an are not supported by modern scientific evidence and are completely unscientific and mythical.		The final piece of evidence is the claim that a renowned geologist supports the view that the information in the Qur'an could not have been of human origin:{{quote\|\|Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. He said: “Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case.” Also he said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin.”}}While Dr. Alfred Kroner was a geology professor in Germany, he never endorsed the Qur'an as being an accurate source of scientific information. A video interview conducted with Kroner in 2011 confirms that his comments from the 80s were taken out of context.<ref>{{cite web\|url= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClHuG880pqU\|title= Alfred Kröner - Quote mined scientist denounces Quran miracle claims\|publisher= YouTube (video)\|author= TheRationalizer\|date= March 21, 2011\|archiveurl= \|deadurl=no}}</ref> He currently does not endorse the Qur'anic view of creation nor did he at the time of the original interview. He affirms that parts of the Qur'an are not supported by modern scientific evidence and are completely unscientific and mythical.
	==Summary==		==Summary==
	The entire argument rests on the Qur'anic description of the "heavens" as "smoke"; a claim which in-turn rests on a false equivalence made between smoke and the makeup of the early universe. It also presupposes that the Qur'anic author must describe something as complex as the earliest phase of the universe using only a single word. A presupposition that makes little sense and is far from convincing when you consider how such information could have validated the authenticity of the Qur'anic message.		The entire apologist argument rests on the Qur'anic description of the "heavens" as "smoke"; a claim which in-turn rests on a false equivalence made between smoke and the makeup of the early universe. It also presupposes that the Qur'anic author must describe something as complex as the earliest phase of the universe using only a single word. This is a presupposition that makes little sense and is far from convincing when you consider how such information could have validated the authenticity of the Qur'anic message.

	The attempt to show that the Qur'an correctly describes the formation of stars (by quoting a portion of Qur'an 41:11) and then the earth (by quoting Qur'an 21:30) is ~~shown to be~~ disingenuous. When the whole of verse 41:11 and its surrounding verses are read in context, it provides a clear chronological account of the earth being formed first and then the hills and sustenance are created upon it. Only after the earth has been created does Allah create the stars. The entire account in the Qur'an is not an accurate reflection of the formation of the Universe.		The attempt to show that the Qur'an correctly describes the formation of stars (by quoting a portion of Qur'an 41:11) and then the earth (by quoting Qur'an 21:30) is disingenuous. When the whole of verse 41:11 and its surrounding verses are read in context, it provides a clear chronological account of the earth being formed first and then the hills and sustenance are created upon it. Only after the earth has been created does Allah create the stars. The entire account in the Qur'an is not an accurate reflection of the formation of the Universe.

	Then there is the use of images of distant nebulae only visible through the aid of modern telescopes that are meant to provide a visual connection to smoke. However, it does not require divine revelation nor advanced scientific instruments to imagine the Milky Way, something that can be seen with the naked eye right here on earth, as a cloud of smoke in the night sky.		Then there is the use of images of distant nebulae only visible through the aid of modern telescopes that are meant to provide a visual connection to smoke. However, it does not require divine revelation nor advanced scientific instruments to imagine the Milky Way, something that can be seen with the naked eye right here on earth, as a cloud of smoke in the night sky.
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	The Earth, like all the other planets in the solar system, started out its life as a disc of dust and gas orbiting the young sun. The dust particles were brought together by the forces of drag to form clumps of rock that grew into what scientists call “planetesimals,” which are tens to hundreds of miles across, and then to Mars-sized “protoplanets” by colliding with each other. Earth grew to its final size through one last major collision with another Mars-sized object. This last collision, also known as the “moon-forming impact,” was so large that—in addition to adding lots of material to the Earth—there was enough energy to vaporize some of the rock and metal from both the proto-Earth and the impacting object. This vapor formed a disc around the Earth that eventually cooled and clumped together to become the moon.<ref>''[https://news.uchicago.edu/explainer/formation-earth-and-moon-explained How the Earth and moon formed, explained.]'' Explainer Series. Sasha Warren. University of Chicago News. </ref>		The Earth, like all the other planets in the solar system, started out its life as a disc of dust and gas orbiting the young sun. The dust particles were brought together by the forces of drag to form clumps of rock that grew into what scientists call “planetesimals,” which are tens to hundreds of miles across, and then to Mars-sized “protoplanets” by colliding with each other. Earth grew to its final size through one last major collision with another Mars-sized object. This last collision, also known as the “moon-forming impact,” was so large that—in addition to adding lots of material to the Earth—there was enough energy to vaporize some of the rock and metal from both the proto-Earth and the impacting object. This vapor formed a disc around the Earth that eventually cooled and clumped together to become the moon.<ref>''[https://news.uchicago.edu/explainer/formation-earth-and-moon-explained How the Earth and moon formed, explained.]'' Explainer Series. Sasha Warren. University of Chicago News. </ref>

	Therefore this coming together of dust and rock pieces smashing into each other to grow in size and form the Earth, does not match the various descriptions of 'spreading' in the Quran.		Therefore this coming together of dust and rock pieces smashing into each other to grow in size and form the Earth does not match the various descriptions of 'spreading' in the Quran.

	==See Also==		==See Also==

Asmith: /* Introduction */

2026-01-25T01:47:03Z

Introduction

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:47, 25 January 2026
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	{{QualityScore\|Lead=1\|Structure=3\|Content=4\|Language=2\|References=2}}This article analyzes the apologetic claim that the [[Qur'an]] contains an accurate account of the formation of stars and early phases of the Universe.		{{QualityScore\|Lead=1\|Structure=3\|Content=4\|Language=2\|References=2}}This article analyzes the apologetic claim that the [[Qur'an]] contains an accurate account of the formation of stars and early phases of the Universe.
	==Introduction==		==Introduction==
	Prominent [[apologists]] such as [[Harun Yahya]] and I. A. Ibrahim have claimed that the Qur'an contains an accurate account of the formation of stars and early phases of the Universe. This claim has been widely disseminated and repeated on numerous websites ~~without any critical examination~~. The basis of the claim is a verse found in Surah Fussilat (Signs Spelled Out), the 41<sup>st</sup> [[Surah]] of the Qur'an which says that the "[[heaven]]s" were once smoke. Apologists argue that this information about the early universe could not have been known in 7<sup>th</sup> century Arabia and has only come to light in the 20<sup>th</sup> and 21<sup>st</sup> centuries through modern scientific investigation.		Prominent [[apologists]] such as [[Harun Yahya]] and I. A. Ibrahim have claimed that the Qur'an contains an accurate account of the formation of stars and early phases of the Universe. This claim has been widely disseminated and repeated on numerous Islamic websites. The basis of the claim is a verse found in Surah Fussilat (Signs Spelled Out), the 41<sup>st</sup> [[Surah]] of the Qur'an which says that the "[[heaven]]s" were once smoke. Apologists argue that this information about the early universe could not have been known in 7<sup>th</sup> century Arabia and has only come to light in the 20<sup>th</sup> and 21<sup>st</sup> centuries through modern scientific investigation.
	===Modern Cosmology===		===Modern Cosmology===
	Before evaluating the claim of a miracle, it is important to have an accurate understanding of modern cosmology. In the 20<sup>th</sup> and 21<sup>st</sup> century, theoretical physicists and cosmologists have given detailed models for the formation of the early universe, stars, galaxies, and planets. These models, often referred to as the Big Bang theory and the Nebular hypothesis, are widely supported by the scientific community.<ref>{{Cite web\|url=http://www.universetoday.com/38118/how-was-the-solar-system-formed/ \|title=How Was the Solar System Formed \|publisher=Universe Today \|author=Abby Cessna\|date= August 23, 2009\|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.universetoday.com%2F38118%2Fhow-was-the-solar-system-formed%2F+&date=2013-12-20\|deadurl=no}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web\|url=http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~yukimoon/BigBang/BigBang.htm \|title=Big Bang: How Did the Universe Begin? \|publisher=California Institute of Technology \|author=Yuki D. Takahashi \|date= Spring 2000\|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ugcs.caltech.edu%2F%7Eyukimoon%2FBigBang%2FBigBang.htm+&date=2013-12-20\|deadurl=no}}</ref>		Before evaluating the claim of a miracle, it is important to have an accurate understanding of modern cosmology. In the 20<sup>th</sup> and 21<sup>st</sup> century, theoretical physicists and cosmologists have given detailed models for the formation of the early universe, stars, galaxies, and planets. These models, often referred to as the Big Bang theory and the Nebular hypothesis, are widely supported by the scientific community.<ref>{{Cite web\|url=http://www.universetoday.com/38118/how-was-the-solar-system-formed/ \|title=How Was the Solar System Formed \|publisher=Universe Today \|author=Abby Cessna\|date= August 23, 2009\|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.universetoday.com%2F38118%2Fhow-was-the-solar-system-formed%2F+&date=2013-12-20\|deadurl=no}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web\|url=http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~yukimoon/BigBang/BigBang.htm \|title=Big Bang: How Did the Universe Begin? \|publisher=California Institute of Technology \|author=Yuki D. Takahashi \|date= Spring 2000\|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ugcs.caltech.edu%2F%7Eyukimoon%2FBigBang%2FBigBang.htm+&date=2013-12-20\|deadurl=no}}</ref>
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	==Analysis==		==Analysis==
	===Definition of Smoke===		===Definition of Smoke===
	Since the entire argument rests on the Qur'anic description of the "heavens" as "smoke", it is claimed this word is the best possible way to describe the early Universe:{{Quote\|{{cite web quotebox\|url= http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_04.html\|title= Creation from Hot Smoke\|publisher= Miracles of the Qur'an\|author= Harun Yahya\|date= accessed December 19, 2013\|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.miraclesofthequran.com%2Fscientific_04.html&date=2013-12-19\|deadurl=no}}\|The Arabic word for "smoke" in the above verse is "''dukhanun''," which describes the hot, cosmic smoke in question. This word in the Qur'an, in pinpoint fashion, describes this smoke very accurately for it is a warm body of gas containing mobile particles connected to solid substances. Here, the Qur'an has employed the most appropriate word from the Arabic language for describing the appearance of this phase of the universe. Let us note that only in the 20<sup>th</sup> century have scientists discovered that the universe emerged from a hot gas in the form of smoke.}}This claim is based on a logical fallacy; a false equivalence between "smoke" and their definition of the early universe: "an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition" or just "hot gas". There is no such thing as ''<nowiki/>'cosmic smoke'<nowiki/>'' as stated by Harun''.'' The actual definition of smoke is presented below:{{Quote\|\|'''smoke''' ''noun'' \ˈsmōk\		Since the entire argument rests on the Qur'anic description of the "heavens" as "smoke", it is claimed this word is the best possible way to describe the early Universe:{{Quote\|{{cite web quotebox\|url= http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_04.html\|title= Creation from Hot Smoke\|publisher= Miracles of the Qur'an\|author= Harun Yahya\|date= accessed December 19, 2013\|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.miraclesofthequran.com%2Fscientific_04.html&date=2013-12-19\|deadurl=no}}\|The Arabic word for "smoke" in the above verse is "''dukhanun''," which describes the hot, cosmic smoke in question. This word in the Qur'an, in pinpoint fashion, describes this smoke very accurately for it is a warm body of gas containing mobile particles connected to solid substances. Here, the Qur'an has employed the most appropriate word from the Arabic language for describing the appearance of this phase of the universe. Let us note that only in the 20<sup>th</sup> century have scientists discovered that the universe emerged from a hot gas in the form of smoke.}}This claim is based on a logical fallacy; a false equivalence is made here between "smoke" and their definition of the early universe: "an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition" or just "hot gas". There is no such thing as ''<nowiki/>'cosmic smoke'<nowiki/>'' as stated by Harun''.'' The actual definition of smoke is presented below:{{Quote\|\|'''smoke''' ''noun'' \ˈsmōk\


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	===Single-Word Description===		===Single-Word Description===
	The claim presupposes that the Qur'anic author must describe the earliest phase of the universe using a single word. However, no one would be convinced if a scientist, purporting to be an expert in cosmology, put together a paper on the formation of stars and only described it in a single word. Even apologists realize that a single-word description is not adequate to convey such a complex topic, which is why they use ~~multiple words to describe this state of the universe and even a short paragraph~~ to make their point. ~~One has to wonder why the Qur'anic description is~~ so ~~sparse and inadequate given how easy it~~ would ~~have been for~~ [[Allah]] ~~to have conveyed~~ such ~~information~~.		The claim presupposes that the Qur'anic author must describe the earliest phase of the universe using a single word. However, no one would be convinced if a scientist, purporting to be an expert in cosmology, put together a paper on the formation of stars and only described it in a single word. Even apologists realize that a single-word description is not adequate to convey such a complex topic, which is why they use give lengthy explanations to make their point. The idea that a single word would carry so much weight would not be in keeping with a "clear" book revealed by [[Allah]], for such powerful revelations more explanation is clearly required.

	This lack of detail is further highlighted by the depth and ~~number of words~~ used by the author of the Qur'an on other topics. The author explains in detail [[Cousin Marriage in Islamic Law\|who you can and cannot marry]] and how [[Critical Analysis: Inheritance Laws\|an inheritance can be divided]]. The Qur'an also retells stories multiple times. Based on these facts, it is difficult to rationalize why such sparse details were used to describe something as complex as the formation of the universe, especially when such information could have validated the authenticity of the Qur'anic message.		This lack of detail is further highlighted by the depth and loquaciousness used by the author of the Qur'an on other topics. The author explains in detail [[Cousin Marriage in Islamic Law\|who you can and cannot marry]] and how [[Critical Analysis: Inheritance Laws\|an inheritance can be divided]]. The Qur'an also retells stories multiple times. Based on these facts, it is difficult to rationalize why such sparse details were used to describe something as complex as the formation of the universe, especially when such information could have validated the authenticity of the Qur'anic message.
	===Nebulea and Milky Way===		===Nebulea and Milky Way===
	The claim then makes use of images of distant nebulae only visible through the aid of modern telescopes. These wispy, red and pink clouds of hydrogen gas are supposed to provide a visual connection to smoke. In the ~~absence of other imagery, one might make~~ the ~~mental connection~~. However, smoke is a thick, billowing substance that is always black, gray, or white. Given this fact, another image of the night sky is far more reminiscent of smoke than the distant nebulae above, and it can be seen with the naked eye right here on earth. It does not require divine revelation nor advanced scientific instruments to imagine the Milky Way as a cloud of smoke in the night sky. It is easy to see how someone in the 7<sup>th</sup> century looking up from the desert could have invented this myth.[[File:Milky Way Arch.jpg\|center\|500px]]<center><small>The Milky Way as observed from earth (fisheye view)</small></center>[[File:Forest fire.jpg\|center\|500px]]<center><small>Cloud of smoke rising on the horizon</small></center>		The apologist claim then makes use of images of distant nebulae only visible through the aid of modern telescopes. These wispy, red and pink clouds of hydrogen gas are supposed to provide a visual connection to smoke. On the surface the comparison seems warranted. However, smoke is a thick, billowing substance that is always black, gray, or white. Given this fact, another image of the night sky is far more reminiscent of smoke than the distant nebulae above, and it can be seen with the naked eye right here on earth. It does not require divine revelation nor advanced scientific instruments to imagine the Milky Way as a cloud of smoke in the night sky. It is easy to see how someone in the 7<sup>th</sup> century looking up from the desert could have invented this myth.[[File:Milky Way Arch.jpg\|center\|500px]]<center><small>The Milky Way as observed from earth (fisheye view)</small></center>[[File:Forest fire.jpg\|center\|500px]]<center><small>Cloud of smoke rising on the horizon</small></center>
	===Qur'anic Verse in Context===		===Qur'anic Verse in Context===
	After a description of the hot, dense, plasma of the early universe as "smoke" and the use of images of distant nebulae, ~~it is~~ then ~~shown~~ that the Qur'an is describing this early phase of the universe:{{Quote\|\|The illuminating stars we see at night were, just as was the whole universe, in that ‘smoke’ material. God has said in the Quran:		After a description of the hot, dense, plasma of the early universe as "smoke" and the use of images of distant nebulae, the apologist then claims that the Qur'an is describing this early phase of the universe:{{Quote\|\|The illuminating stars we see at night were, just as was the whole universe, in that ‘smoke’ material. God has said in the Quran:


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	===Support from Scientists===		===Support from Scientists===
	The final piece of evidence is the claim that a renowned geologist supports the view that the information in the Qur'an could not have been of human origin:{{quote\|\|Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. He said: “Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case.” Also he said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin.”}}While Dr. Alfred Kroner was a geology professor in Germany, he never endorsed the Qur'an as being an accurate source of scientific information. A video interview conducted with Kroner in 2011 confirms that his comments from the 80s were taken out of context.<ref>{{cite web\|url= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClHuG880pqU\|title= Alfred Kröner - Quote mined scientist denounces Quran miracle claims\|publisher= YouTube (video)\|author= TheRationalizer\|date= March 21, 2011\|archiveurl= \|deadurl=no}}</ref> He currently does not endorse the Qur'anic view of creation nor did he at the time of the original interview. He affirms that parts of the Qur'an are not supported by modern scientific evidence and are completely unscientific and mythical.		The final piece of evidence is the claim that a renowned geologist supports the view that the information in the Qur'an could not have been of human origin:{{quote\|\|Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. He said: “Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case.” Also he said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin.”}}While Dr. Alfred Kroner was a geology professor in Germany, he never endorsed the Qur'an as being an accurate source of scientific information. A video interview conducted with Kroner in 2011 confirms that his comments from the 80s were taken out of context.<ref>{{cite web\|url= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClHuG880pqU\|title= Alfred Kröner - Quote mined scientist denounces Quran miracle claims\|publisher= YouTube (video)\|author= TheRationalizer\|date= March 21, 2011\|archiveurl= \|deadurl=no}}</ref> He currently does not endorse the Qur'anic view of creation nor did he at the time of the original interview. He affirms that parts of the Qur'an are not supported by modern scientific evidence and are completely unscientific and mythical.
	==~~Conclusion~~==		==Summary==
	The entire argument rests on the Qur'anic description of the "heavens" as "smoke"; a claim which in-turn rests on a false equivalence made between smoke and the makeup of the early universe. It also presupposes that the Qur'anic author must describe something as complex as the earliest phase of the universe using only a single word. A presupposition that makes little sense and is far from convincing when you consider how such information could have validated the authenticity of the Qur'anic message.		The entire argument rests on the Qur'anic description of the "heavens" as "smoke"; a claim which in-turn rests on a false equivalence made between smoke and the makeup of the early universe. It also presupposes that the Qur'anic author must describe something as complex as the earliest phase of the universe using only a single word. A presupposition that makes little sense and is far from convincing when you consider how such information could have validated the authenticity of the Qur'anic message.

Asmith: /* Correct Arabic Word */

2025-02-23T18:24:30Z

Correct Arabic Word

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:24, 23 February 2025
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	</ref>		</ref>
	~~===Correct Arabic Word===~~
	~~The Arabic word for "gas" is ''gaz'' or ''ghaz'' (غاز), not ''dukhan''. It is this word which should have been used to describe the state of the universe if the above verse were correct.~~
	===Support from Scientists===		===Support from Scientists===
	The final piece of evidence is the claim that a renowned geologist supports the view that the information in the Qur'an could not have been of human origin:{{quote\|\|Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. He said: “Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case.” Also he said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin.”}}While Dr. Alfred Kroner was a geology professor in Germany, he never endorsed the Qur'an as being an accurate source of scientific information. A video interview conducted with Kroner in 2011 confirms that his comments from the 80s were taken out of context.<ref>{{cite web\|url= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClHuG880pqU\|title= Alfred Kröner - Quote mined scientist denounces Quran miracle claims\|publisher= YouTube (video)\|author= TheRationalizer\|date= March 21, 2011\|archiveurl= \|deadurl=no}}</ref> He currently does not endorse the Qur'anic view of creation nor did he at the time of the original interview. He affirms that parts of the Qur'an are not supported by modern scientific evidence and are completely unscientific and mythical.		The final piece of evidence is the claim that a renowned geologist supports the view that the information in the Qur'an could not have been of human origin:{{quote\|\|Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. He said: “Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case.” Also he said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin.”}}While Dr. Alfred Kroner was a geology professor in Germany, he never endorsed the Qur'an as being an accurate source of scientific information. A video interview conducted with Kroner in 2011 confirms that his comments from the 80s were taken out of context.<ref>{{cite web\|url= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClHuG880pqU\|title= Alfred Kröner - Quote mined scientist denounces Quran miracle claims\|publisher= YouTube (video)\|author= TheRationalizer\|date= March 21, 2011\|archiveurl= \|deadurl=no}}</ref> He currently does not endorse the Qur'anic view of creation nor did he at the time of the original interview. He affirms that parts of the Qur'an are not supported by modern scientific evidence and are completely unscientific and mythical.

CPO675: /* External Links */ Added a great external source covering this and 'universe creation' in general showing an even stronger refutation of the Qur'anic creation account, and some very minor changes across the rest of the page.

2024-06-26T22:01:38Z

External Links: Added a great external source covering this and 'universe creation' in general showing an even stronger refutation of the Qur'anic creation account, and some very minor changes across the rest of the page.

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:01, 26 June 2024
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	==Analysis==		==Analysis==
	===Definition of Smoke===		===Definition of Smoke===
	Since the entire argument rests on the Qur'anic description of the "heavens" as "smoke", it is claimed this word is the best possible way to describe the early Universe:{{Quote\|{{cite web quotebox\|url= http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_04.html\|title= Creation from Hot Smoke\|publisher= Miracles of the Qur'an\|author= Harun Yahya\|date= accessed December 19, 2013\|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.miraclesofthequran.com%2Fscientific_04.html&date=2013-12-19\|deadurl=no}}\|The Arabic word for "smoke" in the above verse is "''dukhanun''," which describes the hot, cosmic smoke in question. This word in the Qur'an, in pinpoint fashion, describes this smoke very accurately for it is a warm body of gas containing mobile particles connected to solid substances. Here, the Qur'an has employed the most appropriate word from the Arabic language for describing the appearance of this phase of the universe. Let us note that only in the 20<sup>th</sup> century have scientists discovered that the universe emerged from a hot gas in the form of smoke.}}This claim is based on a logical fallacy; a false equivalence between "smoke" and their definition of the early universe: "an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition" or just "hot gas". The actual definition of smoke is presented below:{{Quote\|\|'''smoke''' ''noun'' \ˈsmōk\		Since the entire argument rests on the Qur'anic description of the "heavens" as "smoke", it is claimed this word is the best possible way to describe the early Universe:{{Quote\|{{cite web quotebox\|url= http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_04.html\|title= Creation from Hot Smoke\|publisher= Miracles of the Qur'an\|author= Harun Yahya\|date= accessed December 19, 2013\|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.miraclesofthequran.com%2Fscientific_04.html&date=2013-12-19\|deadurl=no}}\|The Arabic word for "smoke" in the above verse is "''dukhanun''," which describes the hot, cosmic smoke in question. This word in the Qur'an, in pinpoint fashion, describes this smoke very accurately for it is a warm body of gas containing mobile particles connected to solid substances. Here, the Qur'an has employed the most appropriate word from the Arabic language for describing the appearance of this phase of the universe. Let us note that only in the 20<sup>th</sup> century have scientists discovered that the universe emerged from a hot gas in the form of smoke.}}This claim is based on a logical fallacy; a false equivalence between "smoke" and their definition of the early universe: "an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition" or just "hot gas". There is no such thing as ''<nowiki/>'cosmic smoke'<nowiki/>'' as stated by Harun''.'' The actual definition of smoke is presented below:{{Quote\|\|'''smoke''' ''noun'' \ˈsmōk\


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	. . .<BR>		. . .<BR>

	:the gaseous products of burning materials especially of organic origin made visible by the presence of small particles of carbon.<ref>{{cite web\|url= http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/smoke\|title= Smoke\|publisher= Merrian-Webster\|author= \|date=accessed December 19, 2013 \|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.merriam-webster.com%2Fdictionary%2Fsmoke&date=2013-12-19\|deadurl=no}}</ref>}}There is no ~~similarities~~ between the early universe and smoke. There was no burning of material, especially of organic compounds in the early universe. Organic molecules would not exist for another 10 billion years. Even carbon did not exist at this stage and it would not exist for millions of years until it was first fused in the center of giant stars. The early universe was extremely dense and smoke is not dense at all; in fact smoke is completely vaporous. Smoke can be hot, but often is not. It is the hot gas close to the burning material that can make smoke hot, but the carbon particles that linger in the air can be quite cool.		:the gaseous products of burning materials especially of organic origin made visible by the presence of small particles of carbon.<ref>{{cite web\|url= http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/smoke\|title= Smoke\|publisher= Merrian-Webster\|author= \|date=accessed December 19, 2013 \|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.merriam-webster.com%2Fdictionary%2Fsmoke&date=2013-12-19\|deadurl=no}}</ref>}}There is no similarity between the early universe and smoke. There was no burning of material, especially of organic compounds in the early universe. Organic molecules would not exist for another 10 billion years. Even carbon did not exist at this stage and it would not exist for millions of years until it was first fused in the center of giant stars. The early universe was extremely dense and smoke is not dense at all; in fact smoke is completely vaporous. Smoke can be hot, but often is not. It is the hot gas close to the burning material that can make smoke hot, but the carbon particles that linger in the air can be quite cool.

	''(Separately the apologist's claim also relies on the word for the sky/heaven(s) (al-samaa السماء) meaning our Universe, which is itself highly problematic; see the analysis in: [[Science and the Seven Earths]]).''		''(Separately the apologist's claim also relies on the word for the sky/heaven(s) (al-samaa السماء) meaning our Universe, which is itself highly problematic; see the analysis in:'' [[Science and the Seven Earths#Seven Universes]]'').''

	===Single-Word Description===		===Single-Word Description===
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	*{{external link\| url = http://www.answer-islam.org/Smoke.html\| title = Does Science really prove the Quran? Heavens created as 'Smoke'\| publisher = Answer-Islam\| author = \| date = \| archiveurl = http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.answer-islam.org%2FSmoke.html&date=2013-12-18\| deadurl = no}}		*{{external link\| url = http://www.answer-islam.org/Smoke.html\| title = Does Science really prove the Quran? Heavens created as 'Smoke'\| publisher = Answer-Islam\| author = \| date = \| archiveurl = http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.answer-islam.org%2FSmoke.html&date=2013-12-18\| deadurl = no}}
			*[https://theislamissue.wordpress.com/2023/12/22/islamic-astronomical-miracles/ Islamic Astronomical miracles - The Islam Issue]

	==References==		==References==
	{{reflist}}		{{reflist}}
	[[Category:Sacred history]]		[[Category:Sacred history]]

CPO675: /* Conclusion */ Added an additional section specifically on the Creation of the Earth 'spreading' vs the scientific theory of it's creation.

2024-04-20T09:06:55Z

Conclusion: Added an additional section specifically on the Creation of the Earth 'spreading' vs the scientific theory of it's creation.

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:06, 20 April 2024
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	Finally, in an attempt to provide some much needed credibility, the apologist makes an appeal to authority by claiming that a renowned geologist supports their views, when in fact he has never endorsed the Qur'an as being an accurate source of scientific information and was simply quote mined.		Finally, in an attempt to provide some much needed credibility, the apologist makes an appeal to authority by claiming that a renowned geologist supports their views, when in fact he has never endorsed the Qur'an as being an accurate source of scientific information and was simply quote mined.

			== Additional Points ==

			=== Creation of the Earth ===
			In many of these verses, along with the creation of the heavens, the Quran also describes the creation of the Earth as a process in which it was 'spread out' in a number of different ways. Other than describing a flat earth ''(see: [[Islamic Views on the Shape of the Earth]])'', this is also at odds with the scientific view on the creation/formation of the earth.
			{{Quote\|{{Quran\|79\|27-33}}\|Are you a more difficult creation or is the heaven? Allah constructed it. He raised its ceiling and proportioned it. And He darkened its night and extracted its brightness. And after that He spread the earth. He extracted from it its water and its pasture, And the mountains He set firmly As provision for you and your grazing livestock.}}{{Quote\|{{Quran\|91\|5-6}}\|And the heaven and Him Who built it,
			And the earth and Him Who spread it,}}{{Quote\|{{Quran\|50\|6-7}}\|Have they not looked at the heaven above them - how We structured it and adorned it and [how] it has no rifts?
			And the earth - We spread it out and cast therein firmly set mountains and made grow therein [something] of every beautiful kind,}}{{Quote\|{{Quran\|71\|15-19}}\|‘Do you not see how Allah has created the seven heavens atop each other?’
			and has made therein the moon for a light and the sun for a lamp?
			Allah made you grow from the earth, with a [vegetable] growth.
			Then He makes you return to it, and He will bring you forth [without fail].
			And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out),}}

			See also {{Quran\|20\|53}}, {{Quran\|15\|19}}, and {{Quran\|13\|3}}.

			The current scientific consensus is when the solar system settled into its current layout about 4.5 billion years ago, Earth formed when gravity pulled swirling gas and dust in to become the third planet from the Sun.<ref>''[https://science.nasa.gov/earth/facts/ Earth Facts.]'' Science. NASA.</ref>

			The Earth, like all the other planets in the solar system, started out its life as a disc of dust and gas orbiting the young sun. The dust particles were brought together by the forces of drag to form clumps of rock that grew into what scientists call “planetesimals,” which are tens to hundreds of miles across, and then to Mars-sized “protoplanets” by colliding with each other. Earth grew to its final size through one last major collision with another Mars-sized object. This last collision, also known as the “moon-forming impact,” was so large that—in addition to adding lots of material to the Earth—there was enough energy to vaporize some of the rock and metal from both the proto-Earth and the impacting object. This vapor formed a disc around the Earth that eventually cooled and clumped together to become the moon.<ref>''[https://news.uchicago.edu/explainer/formation-earth-and-moon-explained How the Earth and moon formed, explained.]'' Explainer Series. Sasha Warren. University of Chicago News. </ref>

			Therefore this coming together of dust and rock pieces smashing into each other to grow in size and form the Earth, does not match the various descriptions of 'spreading' in the Quran.

	==See Also==		==See Also==

CPO675: /* Analysis */ Added a link to the Science and the Seven Earths page which now analyses the claim the nearest sky/heaven is our modern universe - as the apologist claim is also completely dependent on this definition (as well as 'smoke' meaning general gases).

2024-03-06T15:21:18Z

Analysis: Added a link to the Science and the Seven Earths page which now analyses the claim the nearest sky/heaven is our modern universe - as the apologist claim is also completely dependent on this definition (as well as 'smoke' meaning general gases).

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:21, 6 March 2024
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	:the gaseous products of burning materials especially of organic origin made visible by the presence of small particles of carbon.<ref>{{cite web\|url= http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/smoke\|title= Smoke\|publisher= Merrian-Webster\|author= \|date=accessed December 19, 2013 \|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.merriam-webster.com%2Fdictionary%2Fsmoke&date=2013-12-19\|deadurl=no}}</ref>}}There is no similarities between the early universe and smoke. There was no burning of material, especially of organic compounds in the early universe. Organic molecules would not exist for another 10 billion years. Even carbon did not exist at this stage and it would not exist for millions of years until it was first fused in the center of giant stars. The early universe was extremely dense and smoke is not dense at all; in fact smoke is completely vaporous. Smoke can be hot, but often is not. It is the hot gas close to the burning material that can make smoke hot, but the carbon particles that linger in the air can be quite cool.		:the gaseous products of burning materials especially of organic origin made visible by the presence of small particles of carbon.<ref>{{cite web\|url= http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/smoke\|title= Smoke\|publisher= Merrian-Webster\|author= \|date=accessed December 19, 2013 \|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.merriam-webster.com%2Fdictionary%2Fsmoke&date=2013-12-19\|deadurl=no}}</ref>}}There is no similarities between the early universe and smoke. There was no burning of material, especially of organic compounds in the early universe. Organic molecules would not exist for another 10 billion years. Even carbon did not exist at this stage and it would not exist for millions of years until it was first fused in the center of giant stars. The early universe was extremely dense and smoke is not dense at all; in fact smoke is completely vaporous. Smoke can be hot, but often is not. It is the hot gas close to the burning material that can make smoke hot, but the carbon particles that linger in the air can be quite cool.

			''(Separately the apologist's claim also relies on the word for the sky/heaven(s) (al-samaa السماء) meaning our Universe, which is itself highly problematic; see the analysis in: [[Science and the Seven Earths]]).''

	===Single-Word Description===		===Single-Word Description===
	The claim presupposes that the Qur'anic author must describe the earliest phase of the universe using a single word. However, no one would be convinced if a scientist, purporting to be an expert in cosmology, put together a paper on the formation of stars and only described it in a single word. Even apologists realize that a single-word description is not adequate to convey such a complex topic, which is why they use multiple words to describe this state of the universe and even a short paragraph to make their point. One has to wonder why the Qur'anic description is so sparse and inadequate given how easy it would have been for [[Allah]] to have conveyed such information.		The claim presupposes that the Qur'anic author must describe the earliest phase of the universe using a single word. However, no one would be convinced if a scientist, purporting to be an expert in cosmology, put together a paper on the formation of stars and only described it in a single word. Even apologists realize that a single-word description is not adequate to convey such a complex topic, which is why they use multiple words to describe this state of the universe and even a short paragraph to make their point. One has to wonder why the Qur'anic description is so sparse and inadequate given how easy it would have been for [[Allah]] to have conveyed such information.

CPO675: /* Qur'anic Verse in Context */ Added paragraph on stars being made before the Earth a scientific error, as well as no differentiation of the creation of stars vs planets, which are both 'lamps' in the sky.

2024-02-05T16:22:02Z

Qur'anic Verse in Context: Added paragraph on stars being made before the Earth a scientific error, as well as no differentiation of the creation of stars vs planets, which are both 'lamps' in the sky.

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:22, 5 February 2024
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	:'''“Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?...” (Quran 21:30)'''}}However, the entire Qur'anic verse nor any of the surrounding verses are quoted. Here is the verse, in its proper context:{{Quote\|{{Quran-range\|41\|9\|12}}\|9. Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.<BR>10. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;<BR>11. '''Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke''', and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.<BR>12. Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.}}In verses 9-10, the Qur'an states that Allah created the earth before he created the heavens. It provides a clear chronological account of the earth being formed first and then the hills and sustenance are created upon it. Only after the earth has been created does he look toward the heaven to create the stars. This is made apparent in the second half of verse 11 when Allah speaks to both the heaven and the earth; unless the earth had been created first, how could he speak to it? It is known from radiometric dating that the earth formed about 4.5 billion years ago, almost 9 billion years after the Universe first expanded.<ref>{{Cite web\|url=http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html \|title=Age of the Earth \|publisher=U.S. Geological Survey \|author=\|date= July 9, 2007\|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpubs.usgs.gov%2Fgip%2Fgeotime%2Fage.html&date=2013-12-19\|deadurl=no}}</ref> The author of the Qur'an was not aware of this fact and claims that the earth and this "smoke" were in existence at the same time. In verse 12, the Qur'an says it is only then that the stars are created.		:'''“Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?...” (Quran 21:30)'''}}However, the entire Qur'anic verse nor any of the surrounding verses are quoted. Here is the verse, in its proper context:{{Quote\|{{Quran-range\|41\|9\|12}}\|9. Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.<BR>10. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;<BR>11. '''Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke''', and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.<BR>12. Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.}}In verses 9-10, the Qur'an states that Allah created the earth before he created the heavens. It provides a clear chronological account of the earth being formed first and then the hills and sustenance are created upon it. Only after the earth has been created does he look toward the heaven to create the stars. This is made apparent in the second half of verse 11 when Allah speaks to both the heaven and the earth; unless the earth had been created first, how could he speak to it? It is known from radiometric dating that the earth formed about 4.5 billion years ago, almost 9 billion years after the Universe first expanded.<ref>{{Cite web\|url=http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html \|title=Age of the Earth \|publisher=U.S. Geological Survey \|author=\|date= July 9, 2007\|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpubs.usgs.gov%2Fgip%2Fgeotime%2Fage.html&date=2013-12-19\|deadurl=no}}</ref> The author of the Qur'an was not aware of this fact and claims that the earth and this "smoke" were in existence at the same time. In verse 12, the Qur'an says it is only then that the stars are created.

	The Qur'an also describes the process of creation of both the 'heavens', stars, and the Earth and its sustenance as one with continuous active participation from God (i.e., not just for the creation of existence itself), rather than a natural consequence of the rules of physics once the initial universe was created, contrary to modern scientific theories which have mapped out the process (based on physics) from the Big Bang to the present moment.<ref>''[https://science.nasa.gov/mission/webb/early-universe/ Early Universe: Search for the first galaxies or luminous objects that formed after the big bang]''. James Webb Space Telescope. NASA.</ref><ref>''[https://science.nasa.gov/mission/webb/early-universe/ The Big Bang.]'' NASA.</ref>		The Qur'an also describes the process of creation of both the 'heavens', stars, and the Earth and its sustenance as one with continuous active participation from God (i.e., not just for the creation of existence itself), rather than a natural consequence of the rules of physics once the initial universe was created, contrary to modern scientific theories which have mapped out the process (based on physics) from the Big Bang to the present moment.<ref>''[https://science.nasa.gov/mission/webb/early-universe/ Early Universe: Search for the first galaxies or luminous objects that formed after the big bang]''. James Webb Space Telescope. NASA.</ref><ref>''[https://science.nasa.gov/mission/webb/early-universe/ The Big Bang.]'' NASA.</ref>

			These verses also states the 'lamps, which are stars, were created/put in the closest heaven after the Earth was already in existence, contrary to scientific consensus that the stars were created first (and are continuously being destroyed and created naturally), with our own sun considered to be a third generation star.<ref>''[https://mobile.arc.nasa.gov/public/iexplore/missions/pages/yss/november.html Formation of the Solar System: Birth of Worlds.]'' Mobile.arc. NASA.</ref> In fact the majority of elements that make up Earth are believed to come from stars.<ref>''[https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/are-we-really-made-of-stardust.html Are we made of stardust?]'' Kerry Lotzof quoting Dr Ashley King. Natural History Museum website. </ref> There is also no differentiation in the process between the creation stars and planets (which formed similarly and at a cosmically similar time to Earth in our solar system) which were both believed to make up the lamps in the sky, as planets were believed to simply be moving stars.<ref>See for example [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Fixed_Stars ''The Book of Fixed Stars''] by Abd al-Rahman al-Sufi ~ 964AD. Only after [https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/moon/galileos-observations-of-the-moon-jupiter-venus-and-the-sun/ Galileo's direct observations] (d. 1642) from his refined telescope did the understanding of them as 'worlds' begin to become more widespread.

			</ref>
	===Correct Arabic Word===		===Correct Arabic Word===
	The Arabic word for "gas" is ''gaz'' or ''ghaz'' (غاز), not ''dukhan''. It is this word which should have been used to describe the state of the universe if the above verse were correct.		The Arabic word for "gas" is ''gaz'' or ''ghaz'' (غاز), not ''dukhan''. It is this word which should have been used to describe the state of the universe if the above verse were correct.

CPO675: /* Qur'anic Verse in Context */ Have added in a line making the point that once the mystery before the Big Bang occurred, the Quran still has an active creationist one, not matching scientific theories of a natural creation process resulting essentially from the laws of physics during this time.

2024-01-08T13:01:00Z

Qur'anic Verse in Context: Have added in a line making the point that once the mystery before the Big Bang occurred, the Quran still has an active creationist one, not matching scientific theories of a natural creation process resulting essentially from the laws of physics during this time.

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:01, 8 January 2024
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	:'''“Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?...” (Quran 21:30)'''}}However, the entire Qur'anic verse nor any of the surrounding verses are quoted. Here is the verse, in its proper context:{{Quote\|{{Quran-range\|41\|9\|12}}\|9. Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.<BR>10. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;<BR>11. '''Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke''', and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.<BR>12. Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.}}In verses 9-10, the Qur'an states that Allah created the earth before he created the heavens. It provides a clear chronological account of the earth being formed first and then the hills and sustenance are created upon it. Only after the earth has been created does he look toward the heaven to create the stars. This is made apparent in the second half of verse 11 when Allah speaks to both the heaven and the earth; unless the earth had been created first, how could he speak to it? It is known from radiometric dating that the earth formed about 4.5 billion years ago, almost 9 billion years after the Universe first expanded.<ref>{{Cite web\|url=http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html \|title=Age of the Earth \|publisher=U.S. Geological Survey \|author=\|date= July 9, 2007\|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpubs.usgs.gov%2Fgip%2Fgeotime%2Fage.html&date=2013-12-19\|deadurl=no}}</ref> The author of the Qur'an was not aware of this fact and claims that the earth and this "smoke" were in existence at the same time. In verse 12, the Qur'an says it is only then that the stars are created.		:'''“Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?...” (Quran 21:30)'''}}However, the entire Qur'anic verse nor any of the surrounding verses are quoted. Here is the verse, in its proper context:{{Quote\|{{Quran-range\|41\|9\|12}}\|9. Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.<BR>10. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;<BR>11. '''Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke''', and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.<BR>12. Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.}}In verses 9-10, the Qur'an states that Allah created the earth before he created the heavens. It provides a clear chronological account of the earth being formed first and then the hills and sustenance are created upon it. Only after the earth has been created does he look toward the heaven to create the stars. This is made apparent in the second half of verse 11 when Allah speaks to both the heaven and the earth; unless the earth had been created first, how could he speak to it? It is known from radiometric dating that the earth formed about 4.5 billion years ago, almost 9 billion years after the Universe first expanded.<ref>{{Cite web\|url=http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/geotime/age.html \|title=Age of the Earth \|publisher=U.S. Geological Survey \|author=\|date= July 9, 2007\|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpubs.usgs.gov%2Fgip%2Fgeotime%2Fage.html&date=2013-12-19\|deadurl=no}}</ref> The author of the Qur'an was not aware of this fact and claims that the earth and this "smoke" were in existence at the same time. In verse 12, the Qur'an says it is only then that the stars are created.

			The Qur'an also describes the process of creation of both the 'heavens', stars, and the Earth and its sustenance as one with continuous active participation from God (i.e., not just for the creation of existence itself), rather than a natural consequence of the rules of physics once the initial universe was created, contrary to modern scientific theories which have mapped out the process (based on physics) from the Big Bang to the present moment.<ref>''[https://science.nasa.gov/mission/webb/early-universe/ Early Universe: Search for the first galaxies or luminous objects that formed after the big bang]''. James Webb Space Telescope. NASA.</ref><ref>''[https://science.nasa.gov/mission/webb/early-universe/ The Big Bang.]'' NASA.</ref>
	===Correct Arabic Word===		===Correct Arabic Word===
	The Arabic word for "gas" is ''gaz'' or ''ghaz'' (غاز), not ''dukhan''. It is this word which should have been used to describe the state of the universe if the above verse were correct.		The Arabic word for "gas" is ''gaz'' or ''ghaz'' (غاز), not ''dukhan''. It is this word which should have been used to describe the state of the universe if the above verse were correct.

IbnPinker at 23:48, 7 March 2021

2021-03-07T23:48:18Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:48, 7 March 2021
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	The Arabic word for "gas" is ''gaz'' or ''ghaz'' (غاز), not ''dukhan''. It is this word which should have been used to describe the state of the universe if the above verse were correct.		The Arabic word for "gas" is ''gaz'' or ''ghaz'' (غاز), not ''dukhan''. It is this word which should have been used to describe the state of the universe if the above verse were correct.
	===Support from Scientists===		===Support from Scientists===
	The final piece of evidence is the claim that a renowned geologist supports the view that the information in the Qur'an could not have been of human origin:{{quote\|\|Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. He said: “Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case.” Also he said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin.”}}While Dr. Alfred Kroner was a geology professor in [[Germany]], he never endorsed the Qur'an as being an accurate source of scientific information. A video interview conducted with Kroner in 2011 confirms that his comments from the 80s were taken out of context.<ref>{{cite web\|url= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClHuG880pqU\|title= Alfred Kröner - Quote mined scientist denounces Quran miracle claims\|publisher= YouTube (video)\|author= TheRationalizer\|date= March 21, 2011\|archiveurl= \|deadurl=no}}</ref> He currently does not endorse the Qur'anic view of creation nor did he at the time of the original interview. He affirms that parts of the Qur'an are not supported by modern scientific evidence and are completely unscientific and mythical.		The final piece of evidence is the claim that a renowned geologist supports the view that the information in the Qur'an could not have been of human origin:{{quote\|\|Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. He said: “Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case.” Also he said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin.”}}While Dr. Alfred Kroner was a geology professor in Germany, he never endorsed the Qur'an as being an accurate source of scientific information. A video interview conducted with Kroner in 2011 confirms that his comments from the 80s were taken out of context.<ref>{{cite web\|url= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClHuG880pqU\|title= Alfred Kröner - Quote mined scientist denounces Quran miracle claims\|publisher= YouTube (video)\|author= TheRationalizer\|date= March 21, 2011\|archiveurl= \|deadurl=no}}</ref> He currently does not endorse the Qur'anic view of creation nor did he at the time of the original interview. He affirms that parts of the Qur'an are not supported by modern scientific evidence and are completely unscientific and mythical.
	==Conclusion==		==Conclusion==
	The entire argument rests on the Qur'anic description of the "heavens" as "smoke"; a claim which in-turn rests on a false equivalence made between smoke and the makeup of the early universe. It also presupposes that the Qur'anic author must describe something as complex as the earliest phase of the universe using only a single word. A presupposition that makes little sense and is far from convincing when you consider how such information could have validated the authenticity of the Qur'anic message.		The entire argument rests on the Qur'anic description of the "heavens" as "smoke"; a claim which in-turn rests on a false equivalence made between smoke and the makeup of the early universe. It also presupposes that the Qur'anic author must describe something as complex as the earliest phase of the universe using only a single word. A presupposition that makes little sense and is far from convincing when you consider how such information could have validated the authenticity of the Qur'anic message.