Talk:The Quran and Mountains - Revision history

Lightyears: /* Response to Lightyears */

2021-10-20T02:57:50Z

Response to Lightyears

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:57, 20 October 2021
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	And at the end, I want to make it clear that I have absolutely no problem if all the edits are reversed. I wholeheartedly welcome this move too if admins believe it to be more beneficial. I have ZERO Ego in this regard and fully accept the authority of admins without getting upset. So please feel free in editing, deleting any of my stuff. Thanks.		And at the end, I want to make it clear that I have absolutely no problem if all the edits are reversed. I wholeheartedly welcome this move too if admins believe it to be more beneficial. I have ZERO Ego in this regard and fully accept the authority of admins without getting upset. So please feel free in editing, deleting any of my stuff. Thanks.
			::Thankyou for your understanding and suggestions. I have now integrated your edits including a version of the time point and restructured the article to better organise the various types of apologetics and criticisms on the topic.[[User:Lightyears\|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears\|talk]]) 02:57, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

	[[User:Lehrasap\|Lehrasap]] ([[User talk:Lehrasap\|talk]]) 18:59, 19 October 2021 (UTC)		[[User:Lehrasap\|Lehrasap]] ([[User talk:Lehrasap\|talk]]) 18:59, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Lehrasap at 19:05, 19 October 2021

2021-10-19T19:05:06Z

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	:One other missing point that could be added in terms of the function of pegs issue is that pegs fasten one thing to another. While not obvious to some people from the images, it's worth pointing out that the mountains ''are'' part of the crust (not separate material like a peg) and they just go deeper into the mantel, which is molten and not a solid mass to which the mountains are fastening anything.[[User:Lightyears\|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears\|talk]]) 03:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)		:One other missing point that could be added in terms of the function of pegs issue is that pegs fasten one thing to another. While not obvious to some people from the images, it's worth pointing out that the mountains ''are'' part of the crust (not separate material like a peg) and they just go deeper into the mantel, which is molten and not a solid mass to which the mountains are fastening anything.[[User:Lightyears\|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears\|talk]]) 03:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

			===Response to [[User:Lightyears\|Lightyears]]===
	::Your response is Highly appreciable. You have made very good and strong points.		::Your response is Highly appreciable. You have made very good and strong points.

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	(3) Regarding Ahadith and Tafasir: Yes off course they could not contradict the Quranic Verse, but the issue is that Quranic Verse is itself not supporting the Muslim claim that the time is "unspecified". It is not a proof from Muslims, but it is counted as a statement/conjecture. And this statement could indeed be rejected by Ahadith and the Tafasir, who all confirm that all the Sahaba pointed out that Quran mentioned the "specified" time of human reckoning during the process of creation.		(3) Regarding Ahadith and Tafasir: Yes off course they could not contradict the Quranic Verse, but the issue is that Quranic Verse is itself not supporting the Muslim claim that the time is "unspecified". It is not a proof from Muslims, but it is counted as a statement/conjecture. And this statement could indeed be rejected by Ahadith and the Tafasir, who all confirm that all the Sahaba pointed out that Quran mentioned the "specified" time of human reckoning during the process of creation.
	Our proof becomes more powerful as all the Ahadith and Tafasir also confirm that sahaba were of the same opinion too.		Our proof becomes more powerful as all the Ahadith and Tafasir also confirm that sahaba were of the same opinion too.
	Please note, I am not talking about the "absolute proofs", but about having "'''better ~~proofse~~'''" than the other side.		Please note, I am not talking about the "absolute proofs", but about having "'''better proofs'''" than the other side.

	(4) Bulleted proofs could be removed, or I search further and find out when the first mountain was formed and for how long did the earth stay in the molten state.At every cost, it seems that if would be much longer period than the 6x1000 years, or even 6x50000 years.		(4) Bulleted proofs could be removed, or I search further and find out when the first mountain was formed and for how long did the earth stay in the molten state.At every cost, it seems that if would be much longer period than the 6x1000 years, or even 6x50000 years.

Lehrasap at 18:59, 19 October 2021

2021-10-19T18:59:55Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:59, 19 October 2021
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	:One other missing point that could be added in terms of the function of pegs issue is that pegs fasten one thing to another. While not obvious to some people from the images, it's worth pointing out that the mountains ''are'' part of the crust (not separate material like a peg) and they just go deeper into the mantel, which is molten and not a solid mass to which the mountains are fastening anything.[[User:Lightyears\|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears\|talk]]) 03:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)		:One other missing point that could be added in terms of the function of pegs issue is that pegs fasten one thing to another. While not obvious to some people from the images, it's worth pointing out that the mountains ''are'' part of the crust (not separate material like a peg) and they just go deeper into the mantel, which is molten and not a solid mass to which the mountains are fastening anything.[[User:Lightyears\|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears\|talk]]) 03:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

	:Your response is Highly appreciable. You have made very good and strong points.		::Your response is Highly appreciable. You have made very good and strong points.
	(1) Your criticism of the tradition of History is Yaqubi is correct and it does praise Muhammad later.
	(2~~) What do you think about the verse of "placing the mountains from above"? Could it be used?~~		(1) Your criticism of the tradition of History is Yaqubi is correct and it does praise Muhammad later. It should be removed.
	(3) Regarding Verse 70:4. Yes, Muslims will use it as an excuse. ~~But~~ question is if we should step back and let them go away by making such excuse, or will it be BENEFICIAL if we counter their excuse with arguments/proofs? ~~For example,~~ we could refute the verse 70:4 by saying: "The Critics point out that ~~vIt sereems~~ to ~~me that~~ we ~~have better proofs~~ and ~~better chances as compared to~~ the Muslim on the ~~back foot on~~ this ~~issue~~. Please note, I am not talking about the "absolute ~~proof/chance~~", but about having "better ~~proof/chance~~" than the other side.
	* We		(2) Regarding Verse 70:4. Yes, Muslims will use it as an excuse. Your suggestion is also acceptable to leave it till the mention of Quranic verse of 6 days creation, or the hadith from Sahih Muslim which claims it was the 2nd day of creation when the mountains were created.
	could be ~~used~~ to ~~claim~~ that ~~there~~ are ~~contradictions~~ and ~~Quran and it was a human writing~~, ~~and thus~~		Nevertheless, still a question is if we should step back and let them go away by making such excuse of 70:4, or will it be BENEFICIAL if we counter their excuse with arguments/proofs?
			Issue is that this Quranic verse 70:4 is still not SPECIFICALLY proving that the time with Allah is "unspecified". Thus this Muslim claim of "unspecified time" is not Strong enough.
			And we could refute the verse 70:4 by saying: "The Critics point out that verse 70:4 is a contradiction in Quran itself, which shows that the writer of Quran is a human, and he himself forgot that he declared the day with him equal to 1000 years of human reckoning at other place".
			It may not sound as an absolute proof, but it is '''OUR correct position''' on this issue, and it should be thus mentioned merely alone on the basis of what we really believe.

			(3) Regarding Ahadith and Tafasir: Yes off course they could not contradict the Quranic Verse, but the issue is that Quranic Verse is itself not supporting the Muslim claim that the time is "unspecified". It is not a proof from Muslims, but it is counted as a statement/conjecture. And this statement could indeed be rejected by Ahadith and the Tafasir, who all confirm that all the Sahaba pointed out that Quran mentioned the "specified" time of human reckoning during the process of creation.
			Our proof becomes more powerful as all the Ahadith and Tafasir also confirm that sahaba were of the same opinion too.
			Please note, I am not talking about the "absolute proofs", but about having "'''better proofse'''" than the other side.

			(4) Bulleted proofs could be removed, or I search further and find out when the first mountain was formed and for how long did the earth stay in the molten state.At every cost, it seems that if would be much longer period than the 6x1000 years, or even 6x50000 years.

			And at the end, I want to make it clear that I have absolutely no problem if all the edits are reversed. I wholeheartedly welcome this move too if admins believe it to be more beneficial. I have ZERO Ego in this regard and fully accept the authority of admins without getting upset. So please feel free in editing, deleting any of my stuff. Thanks.

			[[User:Lehrasap\|Lehrasap]] ([[User talk:Lehrasap\|talk]]) 18:59, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Lehrasap at 18:23, 19 October 2021

2021-10-19T18:23:34Z

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	:I think it's true though that there is a need for better structuring and making it a bit more concise. The apologetic claims with mountains in the Quran are 1) The claim that they are like pegs in structure or function, and 2) that they stabilise the earth which comes in two flavours, a) the claim that they reduce earthquakes or b) the isostasy claim. As you've mentioned, these in fact are both scientific errors when properly analysed. Then there are in addition the other errors about mountains being cast down, and it's an ongoing process etc. where you made use of the scientific errors page. I'm not sure whether that should come first or after the other stuff but it needs to be well organized.		:I think it's true though that there is a need for better structuring and making it a bit more concise. The apologetic claims with mountains in the Quran are 1) The claim that they are like pegs in structure or function, and 2) that they stabilise the earth which comes in two flavours, a) the claim that they reduce earthquakes or b) the isostasy claim. As you've mentioned, these in fact are both scientific errors when properly analysed. Then there are in addition the other errors about mountains being cast down, and it's an ongoing process etc. where you made use of the scientific errors page. I'm not sure whether that should come first or after the other stuff but it needs to be well organized.
	:One other missing point that could be added in terms of the function of pegs issue is that pegs fasten one thing to another. While not obvious to some people from the images, it's worth pointing out that the mountains ''are'' part of the crust (not separate material like a peg) and they just go deeper into the mantel, which is molten and not a solid mass to which the mountains are fastening anything.[[User:Lightyears\|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears\|talk]]) 03:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)		:One other missing point that could be added in terms of the function of pegs issue is that pegs fasten one thing to another. While not obvious to some people from the images, it's worth pointing out that the mountains ''are'' part of the crust (not separate material like a peg) and they just go deeper into the mantel, which is molten and not a solid mass to which the mountains are fastening anything.[[User:Lightyears\|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears\|talk]]) 03:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

			:Your response is Highly appreciable. You have made very good and strong points.
			(1) Your criticism of the tradition of History is Yaqubi is correct and it does praise Muhammad later.
			(2) What do you think about the verse of "placing the mountains from above"? Could it be used?
			(3) Regarding Verse 70:4. Yes, Muslims will use it as an excuse. But question is if we should step back and let them go away by making such excuse, or will it be BENEFICIAL if we counter their excuse with arguments/proofs? For example, we could refute the verse 70:4 by saying: "The Critics point out that vIt sereems to me that we have better proofs and better chances as compared to the Muslim on the back foot on this issue. Please note, I am not talking about the "absolute proof/chance", but about having "better proof/chance" than the other side.
			* We
			could be used to claim that there are contradictions and Quran and it was a human writing, and thus

Lehrasap at 06:31, 19 October 2021

2021-10-19T06:31:17Z

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 :Thanks for your edits and on the other article. I'll let [[User:IbnPinker|IbnPinker]] work out how to integrate your edits here as he recently rewrote the introduction and a few other parts. We have a format standard whereby there should be an introductory paragraph or two. Before making extensive edits I also recommend reading https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Message_to_New_Users and the pages linked therein. For example, if you drill down you'll find the page which explains how to cite hadiths using the templates, use quote blocks etc. https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Source_Editing#Referencing_Hadith
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 :I think it's true though that there is a need for better structuring and making it a bit more concise. The apologetic claims with mountains in the Quran are 1) The claim that they are like pegs in structure or function, and 2) that they stabilise the earth which comes in two flavours, a) the claim that they reduce earthquakes or b) the isostasy claim. As you've mentioned, these in fact are both scientific errors when properly analysed. Then there are in addition the other errors about mountains being cast down, and it's an ongoing process etc. where you made use of the scientific errors page. I'm not sure whether that should come first or after the other stuff but it needs to be well organized.
 :One other missing point that could be added in terms of the function of pegs issue is that pegs fasten one thing to another. While not obvious to some people from the images, it's worth pointing out that the mountains ''are'' part of the crust (not separate material like a peg) and they just go deeper into the mantel, which is molten and not a solid mass to which the mountains are fastening anything.[[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 03:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Lightyears at 03:20, 19 October 2021

2021-10-19T03:20:23Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:20, 19 October 2021
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	English article is very lengthy with long scientific discussions about Isostasy etc. (i.e. such long modern scientific discussions are neither interesting nor suitable for normal readers). But in Urdu we had a very short article regarding mountains (with absolutely no modern scientific discussions about Isostasy etc) and I noted that it was very effective despite being very short.		English article is very lengthy with long scientific discussions about Isostasy etc. (i.e. such long modern scientific discussions are neither interesting nor suitable for normal readers). But in Urdu we had a very short article regarding mountains (with absolutely no modern scientific discussions about Isostasy etc) and I noted that it was very effective despite being very short.
			:Thanks for your edits and on the other article. I'll let [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] work out how to integrate your edits here as he recently rewrote the introduction and a few other parts. We have a format standard whereby there should be an introductory paragraph or two. Before making extensive edits I also recommend reading https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Message_to_New_Users and the pages linked therein. For example, if you drill down you'll find the page which explains how to cite hadiths using the templates, use quote blocks etc. https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Source_Editing#Referencing_Hadith

			:Regarding the added content, the History of Yaqubi point is too dubious because if you click the source and see the next few lines of the poem, it contains a prophecy about the coming of Muhammad, and therefore the poem is actually post Islamic. If that's on the Urdu page, I think it should be removed from there too.

			:I also think the whole day like 1000 years section should be avoided. Muslims would just point to the other verse 70:4 which says a day is like 50,000 years to show the number is not fixed/literal. It's a strong enough point just that the mountains were made during four "days", or periods of the creation process (traditionally this is understood as the first four days, but it's unclear), yet we know that mountains continue to form to this day as it is an ongoing process. Hadiths can only be supplementary but not able to prove an error in the Quran, and tafsirs are even weaker again for this purpose (though sometimes of interest to show what Muslims believed).

			:Regarding the bullet points, as mentioned above it's not clear from the Quran itself when the four days in which mountains were formed are supposed to occur (probably the first four but it's unclear). Also, I don't think it's accurate that Earth took billions of years to solidify. The sun formed about 5 billion years ago and the Earth solidified quite quickly after its formation 4.5 billion years ago. Life began within 500 million years of that. I think for this reason it's better to remove or revise most of those five bullet points and to not be too reliant on the hadiths for the argument (they just add extra strength but it needs to stand without them).

			:I think it's true though that there is a need for better structuring and making it a bit more concise. The apologetic claims with mountains in the Quran are 1) The claim that they are like pegs in structure or function, and 2) that they stabilise the earth which comes in two flavours, a) the claim that they reduce earthquakes or b) the isostasy claim. As you've mentioned, these in fact are both scientific errors when properly analysed. Then there are in addition the other errors about mountains being cast down, and it's an ongoing process etc. where you made use of the scientific errors page. I'm not sure whether that should come first or after the other stuff but it needs to be well organized.
			:One other missing point that could be added in terms of the function of pegs issue is that pegs fasten one thing to another. While not obvious to some people from the images, it's worth pointing out that the mountains ''are'' part of the crust (not separate material like a peg) and they just go deeper into the mantel, which is molten and not a solid mass to which the mountains are fastening anything.[[User:Lightyears\|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears\|talk]]) 03:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

	==The idea of Mountains being Pegs had already existed among the Arabs before Muhammad==		==The idea of Mountains being Pegs had already existed among the Arabs before Muhammad==

Lehrasap at 01:59, 27 June 2021

2021-06-27T01:59:29Z

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	(2) And then there are two big scientific mistakes regarding the creation of mountains in Quran. Again I wonder why English articles don't mention them. These scientific mistakes of Quran immediately bring Muslims on the backfoot.		(2) And then there are two big scientific mistakes regarding the creation of mountains in Quran. Again I wonder why English articles don't mention them. These scientific mistakes of Quran immediately bring Muslims on the backfoot.

	English article is very lengthy with long scientific discussions about Isostasy etc. (i.e. such long modern scientific discussions are ~~not~~ interesting ~~and~~ suitable for normal readers). But in Urdu we had a very short article regarding mountains (with absolutely no modern scientific discussions about Isostasy etc) and I noted that it was very effective despite being very short.		English article is very lengthy with long scientific discussions about Isostasy etc. (i.e. such long modern scientific discussions are neither interesting nor suitable for normal readers). But in Urdu we had a very short article regarding mountains (with absolutely no modern scientific discussions about Isostasy etc) and I noted that it was very effective despite being very short.

Lehrasap at 01:58, 27 June 2021

2021-06-27T01:58:46Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:58, 27 June 2021
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	(2) And then there are two big scientific mistakes regarding the creation of mountains in Quran. Again I wonder why English articles don't mention them. These scientific mistakes of Quran immediately bring Muslims on the backfoot.		(2) And then there are two big scientific mistakes regarding the creation of mountains in Quran. Again I wonder why English articles don't mention them. These scientific mistakes of Quran immediately bring Muslims on the backfoot.

	English article is very lengthy with long scientific discussions about Isostasy etc. ~~It may be kept, but~~ in Urdu we had a very short article regarding mountains (with no scientific discussions about Isostasy etc) and I noted that it was very effective despite being very short.		English article is very lengthy with long scientific discussions about Isostasy etc. (i.e. such long modern scientific discussions are not interesting and suitable for normal readers). But in Urdu we had a very short article regarding mountains (with absolutely no modern scientific discussions about Isostasy etc) and I noted that it was very effective despite being very short.

Lehrasap at 01:54, 27 June 2021

2021-06-27T01:54:50Z

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	{{User\|IbnPinker}} {{User\|asmith~~}} {{User\|Axius~~}} {{User\|Exmoose}}		{{User\|IbnPinker}} {{User\|asmith}} {{User\|Exmoose}}

			(1) There is a reference that is missing in all English articles and I wonder why it has not been added. It is about Arabs that even before Muhammad, they believed that Mountains are the pegs. We have it in our Urdu article, and it is very effective and Muslim claim (i.e. it's Quran miracle to tell that Mountains are the pegs) end with this single reference.

			(2) And then there are two big scientific mistakes regarding the creation of mountains in Quran. Again I wonder why English articles don't mention them. These scientific mistakes of Quran immediately bring Muslims on the backfoot.

			English article is very lengthy with long scientific discussions about Isostasy etc. It may be kept, but in Urdu we had a very short article regarding mountains (with no scientific discussions about Isostasy etc) and I noted that it was very effective despite being very short.

Lehrasap: /* There are two scientific mistakes in Quran regarding the creation of mountains */

2021-06-27T01:36:58Z

There are two scientific mistakes in Quran regarding the creation of mountains

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:36, 27 June 2021
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	The critics point out that the writer of Qur'an only recorded this old concept in Quran, thus it could be in no way a miracle of Qur'an.		The critics point out that the writer of Qur'an only recorded this old concept in Quran, thus it could be in no way a miracle of Qur'an.

	==~~There are two scientific~~ mistakes in Quran regarding the creation of mountains==		==Scientific mistakes in Quran regarding the creation of mountains==
	~~Critics point out that~~ writer of Quran made two scientific mistakes regarding the creation of mountains.		According to the critics, the writer of Quran made two scientific mistakes regarding the creation of mountains.

	==='''First''': ~~Allah claim that it~~ put ~~mountains~~ "from above" on the earth===		==='''First''': Mountains were put "from above" on the earth===
	{{Quote\|[https://quranx.com/41.10 Quran 41:10]\|وَجَعَلَ فِيهَا رَوَٰسِىَ مِن فَوْقِهَا		{{Quote\|[https://quranx.com/41.10 Quran 41:10]\|وَجَعَلَ فِيهَا رَوَٰسِىَ مِن فَوْقِهَا

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	Critics point out that Mountains are formed through the movement and collision of lithospheric (tectonic) plates. The Quran, by contrast, states that the mountains on Earth's surface were put upon it from above by Allah, which is a scientific mistake of Quran.		Critics point out that Mountains are formed through the movement and collision of lithospheric (tectonic) plates. The Quran, by contrast, states that the mountains on Earth's surface were put upon it from above by Allah, which is a scientific mistake of Quran.

	==='''Second''': Allah had already made the mountains on the day of Sunday at time of the creation of the ~~earth and the skies~~===		==='''Second''': Allah had already made the mountains on the day of Sunday at time of the creation of the universe===
	{{Quote\|[http://web.archive.org/web/20151024181607/http://sunnah.com/muslim/52/10 Sahih Muslim]\|Abu Huraira reported that Allah's Messenger took hold of my hands and said:		{{Quote\|[http://web.archive.org/web/20151024181607/http://sunnah.com/muslim/52/10 Sahih Muslim]\|Abu Huraira reported that Allah's Messenger took hold of my hands and said:

	Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday;the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i. e. between afternoon and night.}}		Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday; the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i.e. between afternoon and night.}}
	Critics point out that according to the modern science<ref>[https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/a34910714/why-mount-everest-and-swiss-alps-are-getting-taller/ Popular Mechanics]</ref><ref>[https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/mountains#:~:text=How%20Are%20Mountains%20Formed%3F,in%20a%20head-on%20collision. National Geographic]</ref>:		Critics point out that according to the modern science<ref>[https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/a34910714/why-mount-everest-and-swiss-alps-are-getting-taller/ Popular Mechanics]</ref><ref>[https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/mountains#:~:text=How%20Are%20Mountains%20Formed%3F,in%20a%20head-on%20collision. National Geographic]</ref>:

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	*There existed no Mount Everest 250 million years ago. Today it is the highest mountain. It will keep on gaining even more height, but then a time will come, when it will disappear completely.		*There existed no Mount Everest 250 million years ago. Today it is the highest mountain. It will keep on gaining even more height, but then a time will come, when it will disappear completely.

	Not only Hadith, but Quran itself claims that Allah had already created the mountains during the creation of the earth and heavens.		Not only Hadith, but Quran itself claims that Allah had already created the mountains during the creation of the earth and the heavens.

	{{Quote\|1=[http://quranx.com/41.9?Context=3 Quran 14:9-11]\|2=(Sahih International) Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? And He placed on the earth firmly set mountains over its surface, and He blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] sustenance in four days without distinction - for [the information] of those who ask. Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."}}		{{Quote\|1=[http://quranx.com/41.9?Context=3 Quran 14:9-11]\|2=(Sahih International) Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? And He placed on the earth firmly set mountains over its surface, and He blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] sustenance in four days without distinction - for [the information] of those who ask. Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."}}