User:CPO675/Sandbox 1 - Revision history

CPO675: /* The Highest Horizon */

2026-02-08T21:09:02Z

The Highest Horizon

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:09, 8 February 2026
Line 10:		Line 10:
	(l-a)ʿlā [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/pdf/Page_2142.pdf Lanes Lexicon p.2142], [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/pdf/Page_2143.pdf Lanes Lexicon p.2143]		(l-a)ʿlā [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/pdf/Page_2142.pdf Lanes Lexicon p.2142], [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/pdf/Page_2143.pdf Lanes Lexicon p.2143]

	</ref>. Typically taken as referring to him receiving knowledge as part of his [[Buraq#The Night Journey (al-Isra wal-Mi'raj)\|night journey]].		</ref>. Typically taken as referring to him receiving knowledge there as part of his [[Buraq#The Night Journey (al-Isra wal-Mi'raj)\|night journey]].
	{{Quote\|{{Quran\|53\|7}}\|possessed of sound judgement. He settled, while he (was) in the horizon - the highest.}}See also: {{Quran\|81\|23}}		{{Quote\|{{Quran\|53\|7}}\|possessed of sound judgement. He settled, while he (was) in the horizon - the highest.}}See also: {{Quran\|81\|23}}

	On a round Earth, there is no such place as an objective highest horizon, as once you move towards ~~it -~~ the perceived horizon (the furthest place you can see where the land and sky appear to meet in the distance)<ref>[https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/horizon Horizon Definition] Cambridge Dictionary</ref> view ~~just~~ moves as you circle the earth, never actually being reached. So some ~~tafsirs~~ have taken this to be the place where the sun rises from, in the seventh heaven, or where it reaches the Earth, ~~such as~~ Al-~~Jalalayn~~ (~~cite~~) ~~& Ibn 'Abbas etc,~~ (~~cite~~) which is only possible on a flat Earth.		On a round Earth, there is no such place as an objective highest horizon, as once you move towards the perceived horizon (the furthest place you can see where the land and sky appear to meet in the distance)<ref>[https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/horizon Horizon Definition] Cambridge Dictionary</ref> the view simply moves further back as you circle around the earth, never actually being reached. So some classical Islamic exegetes have taken this to be the place where the sun rises from, in the seventh heaven, or where it reaches the Earth,<ref>E.g. [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Jalal/53.7 Tafsir al-Jalalayn on verse Q53:7] by Al-Mahalli (d. 1459 CE) and Al-Suyuti (d. 1505 CE) and the famous pseudepigrapha [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Abbas/53.7 Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs on verse Q53:7]</ref> which is only possible on a flat Earth.

	== The Historical Jesus ==		== The Historical Jesus ==

CPO675: /* Flat Earth - Tafsirs */

2026-02-08T09:15:20Z

Flat Earth - Tafsirs

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:15, 8 February 2026
Line 2:		Line 2:

	=== The Highest Horizon ===		=== The Highest Horizon ===
	The Qu'ran says Muhammad was in the highest horizon bil-ufuqi<ref>افق - [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/data/01_A/103_Afq.html Lane's lexicon Classical Arabic Dictionary root: hamza fā qāf (أ ف ق)]		The Qu'ran says Muhammad was in the highest horizon ''bil-ufuqi<ref>افق - [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/data/01_A/103_Afq.html Lane's lexicon Classical Arabic Dictionary root: hamza fā qāf (أ ف ق)]

	Horizon ''ufuq'' (أُفُق) [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/pdf/Page_0068.pdf Lane's Lexicon p.68]		Horizon ''ufuq'' (أُفُق) [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/pdf/Page_0068.pdf Lane's Lexicon p.68]

	Horizon ''ufuq'' (أُفُق) [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/pdf/Page_0069.pdf Lane's Lexicon p.69] </ref> (~~cite~~) l-~~aʿlā~~ (~~cite~~.		Horizon ''ufuq'' (أُفُق) [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/pdf/Page_0069.pdf Lane's Lexicon p.69] </ref>l-aʿlā''<ref>Lanes Lexicon Classical Arabic Dictionary Root: [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/data/18_E/190_Elw.html ʿayn lām wāw (ع ل و)]
	{{Quote\|{{Quran\|53\|7}}\|possessed of sound judgement. He settled, while he (was) in the horizon - the highest.}}
			(l-a)ʿlā [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/pdf/Page_2142.pdf Lanes Lexicon p.2142], [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/pdf/Page_2143.pdf Lanes Lexicon p.2143]

			</ref>. Typically taken as referring to him receiving knowledge as part of his [[Buraq#The Night Journey (al-Isra wal-Mi'raj)\|night journey]].
			{{Quote\|{{Quran\|53\|7}}\|possessed of sound judgement. He settled, while he (was) in the horizon - the highest.}}See also: {{Quran\|81\|23}}

			On a round Earth, there is no such place as an objective highest horizon, as once you move towards it - the perceived horizon (the furthest place you can see where the land and sky appear to meet in the distance)<ref>[https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/horizon Horizon Definition] Cambridge Dictionary</ref> view just moves as you circle the earth, never actually being reached. So some tafsirs have taken this to be the place where the sun rises from, in the seventh heaven, or where it reaches the Earth, such as Al-Jalalayn (cite) & Ibn 'Abbas etc, (cite) which is only possible on a flat Earth.

	== The Historical Jesus ==		== The Historical Jesus ==

CPO675: /* The Historical Jesus */

2026-02-08T08:55:17Z

The Historical Jesus

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:55, 8 February 2026
Line 1:		Line 1:
			== Flat Earth - Tafsirs ==

			=== The Highest Horizon ===
			The Qu'ran says Muhammad was in the highest horizon bil-ufuqi<ref>افق - [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/data/01_A/103_Afq.html Lane's lexicon Classical Arabic Dictionary root: hamza fā qāf (أ ف ق)]

			Horizon ''ufuq'' (أُفُق) [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/pdf/Page_0068.pdf Lane's Lexicon p.68]

			Horizon ''ufuq'' (أُفُق) [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/pdf/Page_0069.pdf Lane's Lexicon p.69] </ref> (cite) l-aʿlā (cite.
			{{Quote\|{{Quran\|53\|7}}\|possessed of sound judgement. He settled, while he (was) in the horizon - the highest.}}

	== The Historical Jesus ==		== The Historical Jesus ==

CPO675: /* Slave-master relationship */

2025-12-29T12:06:13Z

Slave-master relationship

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:06, 29 December 2025
Line 106:		Line 106:
	{{Quote\|Dale C. Allison Jr.. <i>The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Kindle Location 841-848).</i> Kindle Edition.\|2=Working through the tradition in the way I suggest leads to a large number of conclusions. Jesus must have been an exorcist who interpreted his ministry in terms of Satan's downfall. He must have thought highly of John the Baptist. He must have repeatedly spoken of God as Father. <b>[Durie differences in metaphor and understanding of relationship from Hebrew to Arab society = markedly different]</b> He must have composed parables. He must have come into conflict with religious authorities. All of this may seem obvious, but the procedure is not trite, for it also issues in some controversial verdicts. As I have argued elsewhere, for example, ample, the quantity of conventional eschatological material in our primary sources almost necessitates that Jesus was an eschatological prophet.' The reconstruction of Robert Funk and the Jesus Seminar is for this reason alone problematic. Even more controversial is what my approach leads me to infer about Jesus' self-conception. Consider these Synoptic materials:		{{Quote\|Dale C. Allison Jr.. <i>The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Kindle Location 841-848).</i> Kindle Edition.\|2=Working through the tradition in the way I suggest leads to a large number of conclusions. Jesus must have been an exorcist who interpreted his ministry in terms of Satan's downfall. He must have thought highly of John the Baptist. He must have repeatedly spoken of God as Father. <b>[Durie differences in metaphor and understanding of relationship from Hebrew to Arab society = markedly different]</b> He must have composed parables. He must have come into conflict with religious authorities. All of this may seem obvious, but the procedure is not trite, for it also issues in some controversial verdicts. As I have argued elsewhere, for example, ample, the quantity of conventional eschatological material in our primary sources almost necessitates that Jesus was an eschatological prophet.' The reconstruction of Robert Funk and the Jesus Seminar is for this reason alone problematic. Even more controversial is what my approach leads me to infer about Jesus' self-conception. Consider these Synoptic materials:

	• Jesus said that the Son of man will return on the clouds of heaven and send angels to gather the elect from throughout the world: Mark 13:26-27; cf. 14:62; Matt. 10:23 (allusions to Daniel 7's depiction of the last judgment are clear). <b>[the son of man plays no part in Islam]</b>}}Allison (2009) notes that Jesus must have repeatedly referred to God as 'father', a way also used by many ancient Jews to describe their relationship to god, also found in the old testament ~~(cite)~~ and Talmudic writings with paternal imagery. <ref>Knobnya, S.. (2011). ''God the Father in the Old Testament. European Journal of Theology.'' 20. 139-148. </ref><ref>[https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/fatherhood-of-god/ Fatherhood of God] \| Sages & Scholars \| Rabbi Louis Jacobs \| My Jewish Learning</ref>		• Jesus said that the Son of man will return on the clouds of heaven and send angels to gather the elect from throughout the world: Mark 13:26-27; cf. 14:62; Matt. 10:23 (allusions to Daniel 7's depiction of the last judgment are clear). <b>[the son of man plays no part in Islam]</b>}}Allison (2009) notes that Jesus must have repeatedly referred to God as 'father', a way also used by many ancient Jews to describe their relationship to god, also found in the old testament with different metaphorical meanings<ref>Pennington, J.T. "Chapter Nine. God As Father In The Old Testament And Second Temple Literature". ''Heaven and Earth in the Gospel of Matthew''. Leiden, The Netherlands: Brill, 2007. <nowiki>https://doi.org/10.1163/ej.9789004162051.i-399.57</nowiki> Web.</ref> and Talmudic writings with paternal imagery. <ref>Knobnya, S.. (2011). ''God the Father in the Old Testament. European Journal of Theology.'' 20. 139-148. </ref><ref>[https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/fatherhood-of-god/ Fatherhood of God] \| Sages & Scholars \| Rabbi Louis Jacobs \| My Jewish Learning</ref>

	===== Slave-master relationship =====		===== Slave-master relationship =====

CPO675: /* Other Traditions */

2025-12-29T12:01:55Z

Other Traditions

CPO675: /* Other Traditions */

2025-12-24T12:52:13Z

Other Traditions

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:52, 24 December 2025
Line 5:		Line 5:
	==== Intro ====		==== Intro ====

	Alongside the main consensus from Biblical Scholars/Historians that Jesus was an eschatological preacher in the early first century AD who believed the Earth would end during his time (and therefore couldn't be the Muslim Jesus), there are many other of the most considered authentic teachings of Jesus that clash with Islam; ~~considering~~ the principle of Messenger Uniformitarianism; where all messengers preach essentially the same thing with only minor variations.<ref>Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. 135-142) (Kindle Edition pp. 281-294)''. 5.3 Messenger Uniformitarianism. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref>		Alongside the main consensus from Biblical Scholars/Historians that Jesus was an eschatological preacher in the early first century AD who believed the Earth would end during his time (and therefore couldn't be the Muslim Jesus), there are many other of the most considered authentic teachings of Jesus that clash with Islam; in contrast with the Qur'anic principle of Messenger Uniformitarianism; where all messengers preach essentially the same thing with only minor variations.<ref>Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. 135-142) (Kindle Edition pp. 281-294)''. 5.3 Messenger Uniformitarianism. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref>
	{{Quote\|{{Quran\|41\|43}}\|Not is said to you except what was said to the Messengers before you. Indeed, your Lord (is) Possessor (of) forgiveness, and Possessor (of) penalty painful.}}{{Quote\|{{Quran\|2\|285}}\|The Apostle and the faithful have faith in what has been sent down to him from his Lord. Each [of them] has faith in Allah, His angels, His scriptures and His apostles. [They declare,] ‘We make no distinction between any of His apostles.’ And they say, ‘We hear and obey. Our Lord, forgive us, and toward You is the return.’}}		{{Quote\|{{Quran\|41\|43}}\|Not is said to you except what was said to the Messengers before you. Indeed, your Lord (is) Possessor (of) forgiveness, and Possessor (of) penalty painful.}}{{Quote\|{{Quran\|2\|285}}\|The Apostle and the faithful have faith in what has been sent down to him from his Lord. Each [of them] has faith in Allah, His angels, His scriptures and His apostles. [They declare,] ‘We make no distinction between any of His apostles.’ And they say, ‘We hear and obey. Our Lord, forgive us, and toward You is the return.’}}

Line 30:		Line 30:
	While the large differences between the New Testament / Gospels / Christian Jesus and the [[Isa al-Masih (Jesus Christ)\|Muslim Jesus]] are clear to anyone who has read both the Qur'an and NT, (which takes from apocrypha considered inauthentic by NT scholars,<ref>Sanders, E.. ''The Historical Figure of Jesus (pp. 78-79)''. Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.		While the large differences between the New Testament / Gospels / Christian Jesus and the [[Isa al-Masih (Jesus Christ)\|Muslim Jesus]] are clear to anyone who has read both the Qur'an and NT, (which takes from apocrypha considered inauthentic by NT scholars,<ref>Sanders, E.. ''The Historical Figure of Jesus (pp. 78-79)''. Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

	..(Gnosticism was a world view that held everything material to be evil; the god who created the world was a bad god, and the creation was wicked. Gnostics who were also Christians held that the good God had sent Jesus to redeem people’s souls, not their bodies, and that Jesus was not a real human being. The Christians who objected to these views finally declared them heretical.) ''I share the general scholarly view that very, very little in the apocryphal gospels could conceivably go back to the time of Jesus. They are legendary and mythological. Of all the apocryphal material, only some of the sayings in the Gospel of Thomas are worth consideration.'' This does not mean that we can make a clean division: the historical four gospels versus the legendary apocryphal gospels. There are legendary traits in the four gospels in the New Testament, and there is also a certain amount of newly created material (as we saw just above)..</ref> and [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature\|later Christian thought/writings]] ) are too large to list here, and have lead to many Muslims arguing for biblical corruption based on theological grounds [textual ~~grounds too - though~~ don't affect authentic traditions] in general, a disputed idea (cite - Reynolds article. See also: [[Corruption of Previous Scriptures]] & [[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Corruption of Previous Scriptures]]) a summary of some of the most likely authentic traditions from Biblical historians (using historical-critical methods not Christian or Muslim theologians - more likely to be true and not taken from bias or proving or disproving Islam but historical context, widespread across sources, early - cite Allison explanation - Why - different to time and context, unlikely to be fabricated later by Christians, across all early sources etc.) are shown here as an example of the clashes. [Point: not arguing against Christian Jesus - but secular historians one]		..(Gnosticism was a world view that held everything material to be evil; the god who created the world was a bad god, and the creation was wicked. Gnostics who were also Christians held that the good God had sent Jesus to redeem people’s souls, not their bodies, and that Jesus was not a real human being. The Christians who objected to these views finally declared them heretical.) ''I share the general scholarly view that very, very little in the apocryphal gospels could conceivably go back to the time of Jesus. They are legendary and mythological. Of all the apocryphal material, only some of the sayings in the Gospel of Thomas are worth consideration.'' This does not mean that we can make a clean division: the historical four gospels versus the legendary apocryphal gospels. There are legendary traits in the four gospels in the New Testament, and there is also a certain amount of newly created material (as we saw just above)..</ref> and [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature\|later Christian thought/writings]] ) are too large to list here, and have lead to many Muslims arguing for biblical corruption based on textual and theological grounds [though textual don't affect most early & authentic traditions] in general, which is a disputed idea in traditional Islamic thought (cite - Reynolds article. See also: [[Corruption of Previous Scriptures]] & [[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Corruption of Previous Scriptures]]) a summary of some of the most likely authentic traditions from Biblical historians (using historical-critical methods not Christian or Muslim theologians - more likely to be true and not taken from bias or proving or disproving Islam but historical context, widespread across sources, early - cite Allison explanation - Why - different to time and context, unlikely to be fabricated later by Christians, across all early sources etc.) are shown here as an example of the clashes. [Point: not arguing against Christian Jesus - but secular historians one]

	==== Examples ====		==== Examples ====

CPO675: /* Other Traditions */

2025-12-24T12:47:39Z

Other Traditions

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:47, 24 December 2025
Line 5:		Line 5:
	==== Intro ====		==== Intro ====

	Alongside the main consensus from Biblical Scholars/Historians that Jesus was an eschatological preacher in the early first century AD who believed the Earth would end during his time (and therefore couldn't be the Muslim Jesus), there are many other of the most considered authentic teachings of Jesus that clash with Islam considering the ~~message~~ of Messenger Uniformitarianism ~~(cite Durie - reuse 51 citation),~~<ref>Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. 135-142) (pp. 281-294 ~~Kindle Edition~~)''. 5.3 Messenger Uniformitarianism. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref> ~~where all messengers~~ from ~~God/~~Allah ~~are outside~~ of ~~minor variations said to essentially preach~~ the ~~same thing~~.		Alongside the main consensus from Biblical Scholars/Historians that Jesus was an eschatological preacher in the early first century AD who believed the Earth would end during his time (and therefore couldn't be the Muslim Jesus), there are many other of the most considered authentic teachings of Jesus that clash with Islam; considering the principle of Messenger Uniformitarianism; where all messengers preach essentially the same thing with only minor variations.<ref>Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. 135-142) (Kindle Edition pp. 281-294)''. 5.3 Messenger Uniformitarianism. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref>
			{{Quote\|{{Quran\|41\|43}}\|Not is said to you except what was said to the Messengers before you. Indeed, your Lord (is) Possessor (of) forgiveness, and Possessor (of) penalty painful.}}{{Quote\|{{Quran\|2\|285}}\|The Apostle and the faithful have faith in what has been sent down to him from his Lord. Each [of them] has faith in Allah, His angels, His scriptures and His apostles. [They declare,] ‘We make no distinction between any of His apostles.’ And they say, ‘We hear and obey. Our Lord, forgive us, and toward You is the return.’}}

	{{Quote\|{{Quran\|2\|~~285~~}}\|~~The Apostle and~~ the ~~faithful have faith in what has been sent down to him from his Lord. Each~~ [of ~~them] has faith in Allah~~, ~~His angels, His scriptures~~ and ~~His apostles. [They declare,] ‘We make~~ no ~~distinction between any of His apostles~~.~~’ And they say~~, ~~‘We hear and obey. Our Lord~~, ~~forgive us, and toward You is the return.’~~}}		{{Quote\|{{Quran\|17\|77}}\|“This was the sunnah [customary way] of Our messengers whom We sent before you, and you will find no change in Our sunnah”}}cf. {{Quran\|6\|112}}, {{Quran\|35\|43}}, {{Quran\|22\|78}}.

	~~{{Quote\|{{Quran\|17\|77}}\|“This~~ was the ~~sunnah [customary way] of Our~~ messengers ~~whom We sent~~ before ~~you~~, and ~~you will find no change in Our sunnah”}}cf~~: cf. ~~{{Quran\|6\|112}}~~, ~~{{Quran\|35\|43}}~~, ~~{{Quran\|22\|78}}~~. ~~We are explicitly told that messengers bring~~ the ~~same message from Allah: “Nothing is said to you but what has already been said to~~		Other than being explicitly told that messengers bring the same message from Allah, Durie (2018) notes the Qur'an repeatedly states that Muhammad was sent to confirm the revelations given to earlier messengers (Q2:91, 97; Q3:3, 50; Q5:48; Q12:111; Q16:43–44; Q35:31), just as each prophet before him confirmed those who came earlier. For example, Jesus (ʿĪsa) confirmed the Torah of Moses (Mūsa) (Q5:46), and the Qurʾan confirms the scriptures revealed to previous prophets (Q4:47). In this way, Muhammad’s role continues the same pattern of reaffirming earlier divine messages rather than introducing a completely new one.<ref>Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations Into the Genesis of a Religion.'' pp.140</ref>

	messengers before you” {{Quran\|41\|43}}. Durie (2018) notes ''The idea of the “same message” is further reinforced when the Qurʾan repeatedly states that the Messenger was only sent to confirm what was sent down by previous messengers (Q2:91, 97; Q3:3, 50; Q5:48; Q12:111; Q16:43–44; Q35:31), just as previous messengers had done for messengers that preceded them, for example, ʿĪsa¯ “confirmed” the Tawra¯ h of Mūsa¯(Q5:46), and the Qurʾan confirms the book(s) sent by previous prophets (Q4:47), just as the Messenger has been doing in his turn.''<ref>Durie, Mark. The Qur'an and it's Biblical Reflexes. pp.140</ref>{{Quote\|Durie, Mark. The Qur'an and it's Biblical Reflexes. pp.140\|• It is also explicitly asserted that messengers bring the same message		{{Quote\|Durie, Mark. The Qur'an and it's Biblical Reflexes. pp.140\|• It is also explicitly asserted that messengers bring the same message
	from Alla¯h: “Nothing is said to you but what has already been said to		from Alla¯h: “Nothing is said to you but what has already been said to
	messengers before you” (Q41:43; Q22:78) and “we make no distinction		messengers before you” (Q41:43; Q22:78) and “we make no distinction

CPO675: /* V2 */

2025-12-23T18:24:44Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:24, 23 December 2025
Line 187:		Line 187:
	And certainly you know those of you who violated the Sabbath, whereupon We said to them, ‘Be you spurned apes.’<br>		And certainly you know those of you who violated the Sabbath, whereupon We said to them, ‘Be you spurned apes.’<br>
	So We made it an exemplary punishment for the present and the succeeding [generations], and an advice to the Godwary.}}		So We made it an exemplary punishment for the present and the succeeding [generations], and an advice to the Godwary.}}
	In Surah 3 they are struck before they worship the calf. 4:153 specifically says 'then' ''(thumma)''		In Surah 4 they are struck before they worship the calf. 4:153 specifically says 'then' ''(thumma)''

	{{Quote\|{{Quran\|4\|153-161}}\|<b>The People of the Book ask you to bring down for them a Book from the sky. Certainly they asked Moses for [something] greater than that, for they said, ‘Show us Allah visibly,’ whereat a thunderbolt seized them for their wrongdoing. Then they took up the Calf [for worship], after all the manifest proofs that had come to them. Yet We excused that, and We gave Moses a manifest authority.<br>		{{Quote\|{{Quran\|4\|153-161}}\|<b>The People of the Book ask you to bring down for them a Book from the sky. Certainly they asked Moses for [something] greater than that, for they said, ‘Show us Allah visibly,’ whereat a thunderbolt seized them for their wrongdoing. Then they took up the Calf [for worship], after all the manifest proofs that had come to them. Yet We excused that, and We gave Moses a manifest authority.<br>
Line 200:		Line 200:

	=== V2 ===		=== V2 ===
	Surah 2		Surah 4 (summarized version)

			1) They ask Moses for a sign and are hit with a thunderbolt

			2) They then take up the calf for worship

			3) The mountain is raised above them{{Quote\|{{Quran\|4\|153-154}}\|The People of the Book ask you to bring down for them a Book from the sky. Certainly they asked Moses for [something] greater than that, for they said, ‘Show us Allah visibly,’ <b>whereat a thunderbolt seized them for their wrongdoing. Then they took up the Calf [for worship], after all the manifest proofs that had come to them.</b> Yet We excused that, and We gave Moses a manifest authority. <br>
			And We raised the Mount above them for the sake of their covenant, and We said to them, ‘Enter the gate prostrating’ and We said to them, ‘Do not violate the Sabbath,’ and We took from them a solemn covenant.}}Surah 2
			1) They worshiped the calf. And Moses tells them to slay the guilty among them.

			2) They are hit by a thunderbolt - is it chronological?

			3) ... a mountain is lifted above them
	{{Quote\|{{Quran\|2\|51-56}}\|<b>And when We made an appointment with Moses for forty nights, you took up the Calf [for worship] in his absence, and you were wrongdoers.</b> <br>		{{Quote\|{{Quran\|2\|51-56}}\|<b>And when We made an appointment with Moses for forty nights, you took up the Calf [for worship] in his absence, and you were wrongdoers.</b> <br>
	Then We excused you after that so that you might give thanks. <br>		Then We excused you after that so that you might give thanks. <br>
Line 206:		Line 218:
	<b>And [recall] when Moses said to his people, ‘O my people! You have indeed wronged yourselves by taking up the Calf [for worship]. Now turn penitently to your Maker, and slay [the guilty among] your folks. That will be better for you with your Maker.’ Then He turned to you clemently. Indeed, He is the All-clement, the All-merciful. <br>		<b>And [recall] when Moses said to his people, ‘O my people! You have indeed wronged yourselves by taking up the Calf [for worship]. Now turn penitently to your Maker, and slay [the guilty among] your folks. That will be better for you with your Maker.’ Then He turned to you clemently. Indeed, He is the All-clement, the All-merciful. <br>
	And when you said, ‘O Moses, we will not believe you until we see Allah visibly.’ Thereupon a thunderbolt seized you as you looked on.</b>		And when you said, ‘O Moses, we will not believe you until we see Allah visibly.’ Thereupon a thunderbolt seized you as you looked on.</b>
	Then We raised you up after your death so that you might give thanks. /n}}		Then We raised you up after your death so that you might give thanks.}}
	~~Surah 4~~
	{{Quote\|{{Quran\|4\|153-154}}\|The People of the Book ask you to bring down for them a Book from the sky. Certainly they asked Moses for [something] greater than that, for they said, ‘Show us Allah visibly,’ <b>whereat a thunderbolt seized them for their wrongdoing. Then they took up the Calf [for worship], after all the manifest proofs that had come to them.</b> Yet We excused that, and We gave Moses a manifest authority. <br>
	And We raised the Mount above them for the sake of their covenant, and We said to them, ‘Enter the gate prostrating’ and We said to them, ‘Do not violate the Sabbath,’ and We took from them a solemn covenant.}}

	== The Lote Tree of the utmost Boundary (Sid'rati al-Muntahā) ==		== The Lote Tree of the utmost Boundary (Sid'rati al-Muntahā) ==
	Lote tree's are a real type of tree (Ziziphus spina-christi) native to Arabia and the Middle East.<ref>[https://www.suewickison.com/products/lote-tree?srsltid=AfmBOorj_RU2x1OPxgfRe689M2TWw1g4uZTQLkpSolPGYnIatiIe7h6K Lote Tree \| Sidr \| Ziziphus spina-christi \|] Plants of the Qur'an \| Sue Wickison </ref> Different to the tree of eternity/immortality ''(shajarati ul-khul'di)'' in paradise ''jannah,'' the Qur'an mentions The Lote Tree (sidr) of ''the utmost boundary (al-muntahā)''<ref>مُنْتَهَىٰ - [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/pdf/Page_3029.pdf Lane's Lexicon pp.3029]		Lote tree's are a real type of tree (Ziziphus spina-christi) native to Arabia and the Middle East.<ref>[https://www.suewickison.com/products/lote-tree?srsltid=AfmBOorj_RU2x1OPxgfRe689M2TWw1g4uZTQLkpSolPGYnIatiIe7h6K Lote Tree \| Sidr \| Ziziphus spina-christi \|] Plants of the Qur'an \| Sue Wickison </ref> Different to the tree of eternity/immortality ''(shajarati ul-khul'di)'' in paradise ''jannah,'' the Qur'an mentions The Lote Tree (sidr) of ''the utmost boundary (al-muntahā)''<ref>مُنْتَهَىٰ - [https://lexicon.quranic-research.net/pdf/Page_3029.pdf Lane's Lexicon pp.3029]

CPO675: /* Contradiction */

2025-12-23T08:23:55Z

Contradiction

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:23, 23 December 2025
Line 170:		Line 170:
	== Contradiction ==		== Contradiction ==
	The order in Surah 2 has the Jews struck by a lightening bolt after they worship the golden calf, who are then forgiven by Allah by being resurrected.		The order in Surah 2 has the Jews struck by a lightening bolt after they worship the golden calf, who are then forgiven by Allah by being resurrected.
	{{Quote\|~~Quran~~{{~~!}}~~2~~{{!}}~~50-67\|And when We parted the sea with you, and We delivered you and drowned Pharaoh’s clan as you looked on. <br>		{{Quote\|{{Quran\|2\|50-67}}\|And when We parted the sea with you, and We delivered you and drowned Pharaoh’s clan as you looked on. <br>
	And when We made an appointment with Moses for forty nights, you took up the Calf [for worship] in his absence, and you were wrongdoers. <br>		<b>And when We made an appointment with Moses for forty nights, you took up the Calf [for worship] in his absence, and you were wrongdoers.</b> <br>
	Then We excused you after that so that you might give thanks. <br>		Then We excused you after that so that you might give thanks. <br>
	And when We gave Moses the Book and the Criterion so that you might be guided. <br>		And when We gave Moses the Book and the Criterion so that you might be guided. <br>
Line 187:		Line 187:
	And certainly you know those of you who violated the Sabbath, whereupon We said to them, ‘Be you spurned apes.’<br>		And certainly you know those of you who violated the Sabbath, whereupon We said to them, ‘Be you spurned apes.’<br>
	So We made it an exemplary punishment for the present and the succeeding [generations], and an advice to the Godwary.}}		So We made it an exemplary punishment for the present and the succeeding [generations], and an advice to the Godwary.}}
	In Surah 3 they are struck before they worship the calf ~~(does this come after 2 chronologically?)~~ 4:153 specifically says 'then' ''(thumma)''		In Surah 3 they are struck before they worship the calf. 4:153 specifically says 'then' ''(thumma)''

	{{Quote\|{{Quran\|4\|153-161}}\|<b>The People of the Book ask you to bring down for them a Book from the sky. Certainly they asked Moses for [something] greater than that, for they said, ‘Show us Allah visibly,’ whereat a thunderbolt seized them for their wrongdoing. Then they took up the Calf [for worship], after all the manifest proofs that had come to them. Yet We excused that, and We gave Moses a manifest authority.<br>		{{Quote\|{{Quran\|4\|153-161}}\|<b>The People of the Book ask you to bring down for them a Book from the sky. Certainly they asked Moses for [something] greater than that, for they said, ‘Show us Allah visibly,’ whereat a thunderbolt seized them for their wrongdoing. Then they took up the Calf [for worship], after all the manifest proofs that had come to them. Yet We excused that, and We gave Moses a manifest authority.<br>
Line 198:		Line 198:
	Due to the wrongdoing of the Jews, We prohibited them certain good things that were permitted to them [earlier], and for their barring many [people] from the way of Allah, <br>		Due to the wrongdoing of the Jews, We prohibited them certain good things that were permitted to them [earlier], and for their barring many [people] from the way of Allah, <br>
	and for their taking usury—though they had been forbidden from it—and for eating up the wealth of the people wrongfully. And We have prepared for the faithless among them a painful punishment. <br>}}		and for their taking usury—though they had been forbidden from it—and for eating up the wealth of the people wrongfully. And We have prepared for the faithless among them a painful punishment. <br>}}

			=== V2 ===
			Surah 2
			{{Quote\|{{Quran\|2\|51-56}}\|<b>And when We made an appointment with Moses for forty nights, you took up the Calf [for worship] in his absence, and you were wrongdoers.</b> <br>
			Then We excused you after that so that you might give thanks. <br>
			And when We gave Moses the Book and the Criterion so that you might be guided. <br>
			<b>And [recall] when Moses said to his people, ‘O my people! You have indeed wronged yourselves by taking up the Calf [for worship]. Now turn penitently to your Maker, and slay [the guilty among] your folks. That will be better for you with your Maker.’ Then He turned to you clemently. Indeed, He is the All-clement, the All-merciful. <br>
			And when you said, ‘O Moses, we will not believe you until we see Allah visibly.’ Thereupon a thunderbolt seized you as you looked on.</b>
			Then We raised you up after your death so that you might give thanks. /n}}
			Surah 4
			{{Quote\|{{Quran\|4\|153-154}}\|The People of the Book ask you to bring down for them a Book from the sky. Certainly they asked Moses for [something] greater than that, for they said, ‘Show us Allah visibly,’ <b>whereat a thunderbolt seized them for their wrongdoing. Then they took up the Calf [for worship], after all the manifest proofs that had come to them.</b> Yet We excused that, and We gave Moses a manifest authority. <br>
			And We raised the Mount above them for the sake of their covenant, and We said to them, ‘Enter the gate prostrating’ and We said to them, ‘Do not violate the Sabbath,’ and We took from them a solemn covenant.}}

	== The Lote Tree of the utmost Boundary (Sid'rati al-Muntahā) ==		== The Lote Tree of the utmost Boundary (Sid'rati al-Muntahā) ==

CPO675: /* Contradiction */

2025-12-22T18:01:07Z

Contradiction

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:01, 22 December 2025
Line 187:		Line 187:
	And certainly you know those of you who violated the Sabbath, whereupon We said to them, ‘Be you spurned apes.’<br>		And certainly you know those of you who violated the Sabbath, whereupon We said to them, ‘Be you spurned apes.’<br>
	So We made it an exemplary punishment for the present and the succeeding [generations], and an advice to the Godwary.}}		So We made it an exemplary punishment for the present and the succeeding [generations], and an advice to the Godwary.}}
	In Surah 3 they are struck before they worship the calf (does this come after 2 chronologically?)		In Surah 3 they are struck before they worship the calf (does this come after 2 chronologically?) 4:153 specifically says 'then' ''(thumma)''

	{{Quote\|{{Quran\|4\|153-161}}\|<b>The People of the Book ask you to bring down for them a Book from the sky. Certainly they asked Moses for [something] greater than that, for they said, ‘Show us Allah visibly,’ whereat a thunderbolt seized them for their wrongdoing. Then they took up the Calf [for worship], after all the manifest proofs that had come to them. Yet We excused that, and We gave Moses a manifest authority.<br>		{{Quote\|{{Quran\|4\|153-161}}\|<b>The People of the Book ask you to bring down for them a Book from the sky. Certainly they asked Moses for [something] greater than that, for they said, ‘Show us Allah visibly,’ whereat a thunderbolt seized them for their wrongdoing. Then they took up the Calf [for worship], after all the manifest proofs that had come to them. Yet We excused that, and We gave Moses a manifest authority.<br>

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:01, 29 December 2025
Line 28:		Line 28:
	for example, ʿĪsa¯ “confirmed” the Tawra¯ h of Mūsa¯(Q5:46), and the Qurʾan		for example, ʿĪsa¯ “confirmed” the Tawra¯ h of Mūsa¯(Q5:46), and the Qurʾan
	confirms the book(s) sent by previous prophets (Q4:47), just as the Messenger has been doing in his turn.}}		confirms the book(s) sent by previous prophets (Q4:47), just as the Messenger has been doing in his turn.}}
	~~While the~~ large differences between the New Testament / Gospels / Christian Jesus and the [[Isa al-Masih (Jesus Christ)\|Muslim Jesus]] are clear to anyone who has read both the Qur'an and NT~~, (which takes~~ from apocrypha considered inauthentic by NT scholars,<ref>Sanders, E.. ''The Historical Figure of Jesus (pp. 78-79)''. Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.		The large differences between the New Testament / Gospels (and by extension the Christian Jesus), and the [[Isa al-Masih (Jesus Christ)\|Muslim Jesus,]] are clear to anyone who has read both the Qur'an and NT; with the Qur'an having it's own spin on him and taking many aspects from apocrypha considered inauthentic by NT scholars,<ref>Sanders, E.. ''The Historical Figure of Jesus (pp. 78-79)''. Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

	..(Gnosticism was a world view that held everything material to be evil; the god who created the world was a bad god, and the creation was wicked. Gnostics who were also Christians held that the good God had sent Jesus to redeem people’s souls, not their bodies, and that Jesus was not a real human being. The Christians who objected to these views finally declared them heretical.) ''I share the general scholarly view that very, very little in the apocryphal gospels could conceivably go back to the time of Jesus. They are legendary and mythological. Of all the apocryphal material, only some of the sayings in the Gospel of Thomas are worth consideration.'' This does not mean that we can make a clean division: the historical four gospels versus the legendary apocryphal gospels. There are legendary traits in the four gospels in the New Testament, and there is also a certain amount of newly created material (as we saw just above)..</ref> and [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature\|later Christian thought/writings]] ~~) are too large to list here~~, and have lead to many Muslims arguing for biblical corruption based on textual and theological grounds [though textual don't affect most early & authentic traditions] in general, which is a disputed idea in traditional Islamic thought (cite - Reynolds article. See also: [[Corruption of Previous Scriptures]] & [[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Corruption of Previous Scriptures]]) a summary of some of the most likely authentic traditions from Biblical historians (using historical-critical methods not Christian or Muslim theologians - more likely to be true and not taken from bias or proving or disproving Islam but historical context, widespread across sources, early - cite Allison explanation - Why - different to time and context, unlikely to be fabricated later by Christians, across all early sources etc.) are shown here as an example of the clashes. [Point: not arguing against Christian Jesus - but secular historians one]		..(Gnosticism was a world view that held everything material to be evil; the god who created the world was a bad god, and the creation was wicked. Gnostics who were also Christians held that the good God had sent Jesus to redeem people’s souls, not their bodies, and that Jesus was not a real human being. The Christians who objected to these views finally declared them heretical.) ''I share the general scholarly view that very, very little in the apocryphal gospels could conceivably go back to the time of Jesus. They are legendary and mythological. Of all the apocryphal material, only some of the sayings in the Gospel of Thomas are worth consideration.'' This does not mean that we can make a clean division: the historical four gospels versus the legendary apocryphal gospels. There are legendary traits in the four gospels in the New Testament, and there is also a certain amount of newly created material (as we saw just above)..</ref> and [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature\|later Christian thought/writings]], and have lead to many Muslims arguing for biblical corruption based on textual and theological grounds [though textual don't affect most early & authentic traditions] in general, which is a disputed idea in traditional Islamic thought (cite - Reynolds article. See also: [[Corruption of Previous Scriptures]] & [[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Corruption of Previous Scriptures]])

			Historians have searched for a summary of some of the most likely authentic traditions from Biblical historians (using historical-critical methods not Christian or Muslim theologians - more likely to be true and not taken from bias or proving or disproving Islam but historical context, widespread across sources, early - cite Allison explanation - Why - different to time and context, unlikely to be fabricated later by Christians, across all early sources etc.) are shown here as an example of the clashes. [Point: not arguing against Christian Jesus - but secular historians one]

	==== Examples ====		==== Examples ====
Line 76:		Line 78:
	[ highlight those being spoken about in italics or bold]		[ highlight those being spoken about in italics or bold]

	~~Dale/~~Allison (2009) notes that Jesus' banning divorce was an important teaching that <s>stood out</s> to early Christians, [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016%3A18&version=NIV Luke 16:18], [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%207%3A10-16&version=NIV 1 Corinthians 7:10-16], [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010%3A2-9&version=NIV Mark 10:2-9], in contrast to Judaism ([https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2024%3A1-4&version=NIV Deuteronomy 24:1-4]) and Islam e.g. Quran 2:228-232, Q65:1-7, (Q4:19 https://quranx.com/hadiths/4.19 & Q4:35), Q33:49 )		Professor Allison (2009) notes that Jesus' banning divorce was an important teaching that <s>stood out</s> to early Christians, [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016%3A18&version=NIV Luke 16:18], [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%207%3A10-16&version=NIV 1 Corinthians 7:10-16], [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010%3A2-9&version=NIV Mark 10:2-9], in contrast to Judaism ([https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2024%3A1-4&version=NIV Deuteronomy 24:1-4]) and Islam e.g. Quran 2:228-232, Q65:1-7, (Q4:19 https://quranx.com/hadiths/4.19 & Q4:35), Q33:49 )

	He notes that Jesus commanded loving and doing good to enemies in [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%3A38-48&version=NIV Matt. 5:38-48]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%206%3A27-36&version=NIV Luke 6:27-36], while the Qur'an generally advises treating other Muslims well, it specifically states not to be merciful to unbelievers Q48:29. [ For more examples of not being merciful to unbelievers, let alone 'enemies' see: '''[[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Non-Muslims\|https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Non-Muslims]] & [[Kafir (Infidel)#Guidelines%20on%20how%20to%20deal%20with%20disbelievers\|https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Kafir_(Infidel)#Guidelines_on_how_to_deal_with_disbelievers]] Quran 48:29 ]'''		He notes that Jesus commanded loving and doing good to enemies in [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%3A38-48&version=NIV Matt. 5:38-48]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%206%3A27-36&version=NIV Luke 6:27-36], while the Qur'an generally advises treating other Muslims well, it specifically states not to be merciful to unbelievers Q48:29. [ For more examples of not being merciful to unbelievers, let alone 'enemies' see: '''[[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Non-Muslims\|https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Non-Muslims]] & [[Kafir (Infidel)#Guidelines%20on%20how%20to%20deal%20with%20disbelievers\|https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Kafir_(Infidel)#Guidelines_on_how_to_deal_with_disbelievers]] Quran 48:29 ]'''

	• Jesus enjoined unlimited forgiveness: [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018%3A21-22&version=NIV Matt. 18:21-22]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2017%3A3-4&version=NIV Luke 17:3-4]. ~~[forgiveness against shirk -~~ Qur'an says no ~~Q4:~~48 and 4:116. ~~- anyone who believed in him would/could be saved ]~~		• Jesus enjoined unlimited forgiveness: [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018%3A21-22&version=NIV Matt. 18:21-22]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2017%3A3-4&version=NIV Luke 17:3-4]. However the Qur'an distinctly says there is no forgiveness for anyone committing shirk (ascribing partners to God) in {{Quran\|4\|48}} and {{Quran\|4\|116}}.

	He notes Jesus called some to a life without marriage: [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019%3A11-12&version=NIV Matt. 19:11-12], while the Qur'an promotes it as a virtue encouraging those to do so.		He notes Jesus called some to a life without marriage: [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019%3A11-12&version=NIV Matt. 19:11-12], while the Qur'an promotes it as a virtue encouraging those to do so.
Line 104:		Line 106:
	{{Quote\|Dale C. Allison Jr.. <i>The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Kindle Location 841-848).</i> Kindle Edition.\|2=Working through the tradition in the way I suggest leads to a large number of conclusions. Jesus must have been an exorcist who interpreted his ministry in terms of Satan's downfall. He must have thought highly of John the Baptist. He must have repeatedly spoken of God as Father. <b>[Durie differences in metaphor and understanding of relationship from Hebrew to Arab society = markedly different]</b> He must have composed parables. He must have come into conflict with religious authorities. All of this may seem obvious, but the procedure is not trite, for it also issues in some controversial verdicts. As I have argued elsewhere, for example, ample, the quantity of conventional eschatological material in our primary sources almost necessitates that Jesus was an eschatological prophet.' The reconstruction of Robert Funk and the Jesus Seminar is for this reason alone problematic. Even more controversial is what my approach leads me to infer about Jesus' self-conception. Consider these Synoptic materials:		{{Quote\|Dale C. Allison Jr.. <i>The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Kindle Location 841-848).</i> Kindle Edition.\|2=Working through the tradition in the way I suggest leads to a large number of conclusions. Jesus must have been an exorcist who interpreted his ministry in terms of Satan's downfall. He must have thought highly of John the Baptist. He must have repeatedly spoken of God as Father. <b>[Durie differences in metaphor and understanding of relationship from Hebrew to Arab society = markedly different]</b> He must have composed parables. He must have come into conflict with religious authorities. All of this may seem obvious, but the procedure is not trite, for it also issues in some controversial verdicts. As I have argued elsewhere, for example, ample, the quantity of conventional eschatological material in our primary sources almost necessitates that Jesus was an eschatological prophet.' The reconstruction of Robert Funk and the Jesus Seminar is for this reason alone problematic. Even more controversial is what my approach leads me to infer about Jesus' self-conception. Consider these Synoptic materials:

	• Jesus said that the Son of man will return on the clouds of heaven and send angels to gather the elect from throughout the world: Mark 13:26-27; cf. 14:62; Matt. 10:23 (allusions to Daniel 7's depiction of the last judgment are clear). <b>[the son of man plays no part in Islam]</b>}}		• Jesus said that the Son of man will return on the clouds of heaven and send angels to gather the elect from throughout the world: Mark 13:26-27; cf. 14:62; Matt. 10:23 (allusions to Daniel 7's depiction of the last judgment are clear). <b>[the son of man plays no part in Islam]</b>}}Allison (2009) notes that Jesus must have repeatedly referred to God as 'father', a way also used by many ancient Jews to describe their relationship to god, also found in the old testament (cite) and Talmudic writings with paternal imagery. <ref>Knobnya, S.. (2011). ''God the Father in the Old Testament. European Journal of Theology.'' 20. 139-148. </ref><ref>[https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/fatherhood-of-god/ Fatherhood of God] \| Sages & Scholars \| Rabbi Louis Jacobs \| My Jewish Learning</ref>

	===== Slave-master relationship =====		===== Slave-master relationship =====
	~~Father~~ son Hebrew relationship Jesus used distinctly abandoned, instead using other things (other metaphors) in Arab society to describe the relationship between humans and God, such as a slave-master relationship,<ref>Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. XX-XX) (pp. 107-110 Kindle Edition)''. 4.1.1. Shirk - Proprietary Partnership. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref> a Patron - Protege (needs explanation of what this is) <ref>Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. XX-XX) (pp. 110-111 Kindle Edition)''. 4.1.2. Shirk - Patron - Protege Relationships. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref>. having strongly condemned the idea that God could have offspring against the unscripted pagans (mushrikun) taking angels as daughters of god, then against God having a son<ref>Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. XX-XX) (pp. 112-113 Kindle Edition)''. 4.1.5 A Polemical Doctrine. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref>		However this father-son Hebrew metaphorical relationship Jesus used is distinctly abandoned, instead using other things (other metaphors) in Arab society to describe the relationship between humans and God, such as a slave-master relationship,<ref>Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. XX-XX) (pp. 107-110 Kindle Edition)''. 4.1.1. Shirk - Proprietary Partnership. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref> a Patron - Protege (needs explanation of what this is) <ref>Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. XX-XX) (pp. 110-111 Kindle Edition)''. 4.1.2. Shirk - Patron - Protege Relationships. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref>. with Muhammad having strongly condemned the idea that God could have offspring against the unscripted pagans (mushrikun) taking angels as daughters of god early on chronologically of the Qur'an's first recitations, then later against God having a son against Jesus being the son of God.<ref>Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. XX-XX) (pp. 112-113 Kindle Edition)''. 4.1.5 A Polemical Doctrine. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref>

	Slave analogy Dure Print edition pp108 - 110 summary:<ref name=":1">Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. 108-110) (pp. XX-XX Kindle Edition)''. 4.1.5 A Polemical Doctrine. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref> Before its theological use, the Arabic root ''sh-r-k'' referred to ordinary '''partnership or shared ownership'''. The Qurʾan draws on this everyday meaning to illustrate why associating partners with God is impossible. Using the metaphor of '''a master and a slave''', the Qurʾan argues that just as a slave with multiple masters suffers confusion and conflict, attributing partners to God creates an impossible and chaotic situation. This logic appears in verses such as Q39:29 and others that argue multiple gods would lead to conflict and the ruin of creation (Q23:91; Q21:22).<ref name=":1" />		Slave analogy Dure Print edition pp108 - 110 summary:<ref name=":1">Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. 108-110) (pp. XX-XX Kindle Edition)''. 4.1.5 A Polemical Doctrine. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref> Before its theological use, the Arabic root ''sh-r-k'' referred to ordinary '''partnership or shared ownership'''. The Qurʾan draws on this everyday meaning to illustrate why associating partners with God is impossible. Using the metaphor of '''a master and a slave''', the Qurʾan argues that just as a slave with multiple masters suffers confusion and conflict, attributing partners to God creates an impossible and chaotic situation. This logic appears in verses such as Q39:29 and others that argue multiple gods would lead to conflict and the ruin of creation (Q23:91; Q21:22).<ref name=":1" />