User talk:Nightmare140 - Revision history

Axius: /* Quran 4:16 */

2014-05-31T14:23:24Z

Quran 4:16

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:23, 31 May 2014
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	As for the FFI forum, I'll try talking to them. --[[User:Nightmare140\|Nightmare140]] ([[User talk:Nightmare140\|talk]]) 06:51, 31 May 2014 (PDT)		As for the FFI forum, I'll try talking to them. --[[User:Nightmare140\|Nightmare140]] ([[User talk:Nightmare140\|talk]]) 06:51, 31 May 2014 (PDT)
			:Ok. --[[User:Axius\|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius\|talk]] <nowiki>\|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius\|contribs]])</span> 07:23, 31 May 2014 (PDT)

Nightmare140: /* Quran 4:16 */

2014-05-31T13:57:34Z

Quran 4:16

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:57, 31 May 2014
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	:You can email the FFI people here and ask them about forum issues [http://www.faithfreedom.org/contact-us/] but yes they'll be happy to debate with you. --[[User:Axius\|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius\|talk]] <nowiki>\|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius\|contribs]])</span> 05:54, 31 May 2014 (PDT)		:You can email the FFI people here and ask them about forum issues [http://www.faithfreedom.org/contact-us/] but yes they'll be happy to debate with you. --[[User:Axius\|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius\|talk]] <nowiki>\|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius\|contribs]])</span> 05:54, 31 May 2014 (PDT)

	Note that I'm not ~~saying~~ the Qur'an isn't against homosexuality. I'm just saying that I think this verse doesn't have to so with it.		Note that I did not say the Qur'an isn't against homosexuality. I'm just saying that I think this particular verse doesn't have to do with it.

	Also, you should know that when I said Muslims believe scholars and translators would be wrong and that only the Qur'an and Hadiths (the ones we're sure of) don't have mistakes, I didn't decide that on my own. It's an Islamic rule.		Also, you should know that when I said Muslims believe scholars and translators would be wrong and that only the Qur'an and Hadiths (the ones we're sure of) don't have mistakes, I didn't decide that on my own. It's an Islamic rule.

	As for the FFI forum, I'll try talking to them. --[[User:Nightmare140\|Nightmare140]] ([[User talk:Nightmare140\|talk]]) 06:51, 31 May 2014 (PDT)		As for the FFI forum, I'll try talking to them. --[[User:Nightmare140\|Nightmare140]] ([[User talk:Nightmare140\|talk]]) 06:51, 31 May 2014 (PDT)

Nightmare140: /* Quran 4:16 */

2014-05-31T13:55:07Z

Quran 4:16

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:55, 31 May 2014
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	Note that I'm not saying the Qur'an isn't against homosexuality. I'm just saying that I think this verse doesn't have to so with it.		Note that I'm not saying the Qur'an isn't against homosexuality. I'm just saying that I think this verse doesn't have to so with it.

			Also, you should know that when I said Muslims believe scholars and translators would be wrong and that only the Qur'an and Hadiths (the ones we're sure of) don't have mistakes, I didn't decide that on my own. It's an Islamic rule.

	As for the FFI forum, I'll try talking to them. --[[User:Nightmare140\|Nightmare140]] ([[User talk:Nightmare140\|talk]]) 06:51, 31 May 2014 (PDT)		As for the FFI forum, I'll try talking to them. --[[User:Nightmare140\|Nightmare140]] ([[User talk:Nightmare140\|talk]]) 06:51, 31 May 2014 (PDT)

Nightmare140: /* Quran 4:16 */

2014-05-31T13:51:54Z

Quran 4:16

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:51, 31 May 2014
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	:You and me are some anonymous username on the internet and we do not have the religious authority to say multiple recognized famous Islamic scholars, Tafsir authors and translators made a mistake. Also other anti-homosexuality verses have to be considered to know what the meaning was and you have been completely ignoring those verses (people of Lut) and other hadiths. It is clear the Quran is anti-homosexuality. You cannot look at one Quran verse and decide it must mean something that you want it to mean and ignore everything else and what scholars have said. Everything has to be considered while interpreting the Quran but ok, how someone interprets the Quran is up to them.		:You and me are some anonymous username on the internet and we do not have the religious authority to say multiple recognized famous Islamic scholars, Tafsir authors and translators made a mistake. Also other anti-homosexuality verses have to be considered to know what the meaning was and you have been completely ignoring those verses (people of Lut) and other hadiths. It is clear the Quran is anti-homosexuality. You cannot look at one Quran verse and decide it must mean something that you want it to mean and ignore everything else and what scholars have said. Everything has to be considered while interpreting the Quran but ok, how someone interprets the Quran is up to them.
	:You can email the FFI people here and ask them about forum issues [http://www.faithfreedom.org/contact-us/] but yes they'll be happy to debate with you. --[[User:Axius\|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius\|talk]] <nowiki>\|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius\|contribs]])</span> 05:54, 31 May 2014 (PDT)		:You can email the FFI people here and ask them about forum issues [http://www.faithfreedom.org/contact-us/] but yes they'll be happy to debate with you. --[[User:Axius\|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius\|talk]] <nowiki>\|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius\|contribs]])</span> 05:54, 31 May 2014 (PDT)

			Note that I'm not saying the Qur'an isn't against homosexuality. I'm just saying that I think this verse doesn't have to so with it.

			As for the FFI forum, I'll try talking to them. --[[User:Nightmare140\|Nightmare140]] ([[User talk:Nightmare140\|talk]]) 06:51, 31 May 2014 (PDT)

Axius: /* Quran 4:16 */

2014-05-31T13:00:32Z

Quran 4:16

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:00, 31 May 2014
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	Don't worry, I'll not change my mind anytime soon because I'm sure of my religion. And again I'll repeat, repeating something for its importance is not considered a mistake, and not mentioning something is also not considered a mistake.		Don't worry, I'll not change my mind anytime soon because I'm sure of my religion. And again I'll repeat, repeating something for its importance is not considered a mistake, and not mentioning something is also not considered a mistake.
	As for faithfreedom, I registered there when you suggested that I do, but I've still not gotten an answer yet... Seems they didn't accept my membership for some reason (or I made a mistake of some kind, but I don't think so)--[[User:Nightmare140\|Nightmare140]] ([[User talk:Nightmare140\|talk]]) 04:39, 31 May 2014 (PDT)		As for faithfreedom, I registered there when you suggested that I do, but I've still not gotten an answer yet... Seems they didn't accept my membership for some reason (or I made a mistake of some kind, but I don't think so)--[[User:Nightmare140\|Nightmare140]] ([[User talk:Nightmare140\|talk]]) 04:39, 31 May 2014 (PDT)
	:You and me are some anonymous username on the internet and we do not have the religious authority to say multiple recognized famous Islamic scholars and translators made a mistake. Also other anti-homosexuality verses have to be considered to know what the meaning was and you have been completely ignoring those verses (people of Lut) and other hadiths. It is clear the Quran is anti-homosexuality. You cannot look at one Quran verse and decide it must mean something that you want it to mean and ignore everything else and what scholars have said. Everything has to be considered while interpreting the Quran but ok, how someone interprets the Quran is up to them.		:You and me are some anonymous username on the internet and we do not have the religious authority to say multiple recognized famous Islamic scholars, Tafsir authors and translators made a mistake. Also other anti-homosexuality verses have to be considered to know what the meaning was and you have been completely ignoring those verses (people of Lut) and other hadiths. It is clear the Quran is anti-homosexuality. You cannot look at one Quran verse and decide it must mean something that you want it to mean and ignore everything else and what scholars have said. Everything has to be considered while interpreting the Quran but ok, how someone interprets the Quran is up to them.
	:You can email the FFI people here and ask them about forum issues [http://www.faithfreedom.org/contact-us/] but yes they'll be happy to debate with you. --[[User:Axius\|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius\|talk]] <nowiki>\|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius\|contribs]])</span> 05:54, 31 May 2014 (PDT)		:You can email the FFI people here and ask them about forum issues [http://www.faithfreedom.org/contact-us/] but yes they'll be happy to debate with you. --[[User:Axius\|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius\|talk]] <nowiki>\|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius\|contribs]])</span> 05:54, 31 May 2014 (PDT)

Axius: /* Quran 4:16 */

2014-05-31T12:54:41Z

Quran 4:16

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:54, 31 May 2014
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	Don't worry, I'll not change my mind anytime soon because I'm sure of my religion. And again I'll repeat, repeating something for its importance is not considered a mistake, and not mentioning something is also not considered a mistake.		Don't worry, I'll not change my mind anytime soon because I'm sure of my religion. And again I'll repeat, repeating something for its importance is not considered a mistake, and not mentioning something is also not considered a mistake.
	As for faithfreedom, I registered there when you suggested that I do, but I've still not gotten an answer yet... Seems they didn't accept my membership for some reason (or I made a mistake of some kind, but I don't think so)--[[User:Nightmare140\|Nightmare140]] ([[User talk:Nightmare140\|talk]]) 04:39, 31 May 2014 (PDT)		As for faithfreedom, I registered there when you suggested that I do, but I've still not gotten an answer yet... Seems they didn't accept my membership for some reason (or I made a mistake of some kind, but I don't think so)--[[User:Nightmare140\|Nightmare140]] ([[User talk:Nightmare140\|talk]]) 04:39, 31 May 2014 (PDT)
			:You and me are some anonymous username on the internet and we do not have the religious authority to say multiple recognized famous Islamic scholars and translators made a mistake. Also other anti-homosexuality verses have to be considered to know what the meaning was and you have been completely ignoring those verses (people of Lut) and other hadiths. It is clear the Quran is anti-homosexuality. You cannot look at one Quran verse and decide it must mean something that you want it to mean and ignore everything else and what scholars have said. Everything has to be considered while interpreting the Quran but ok, how someone interprets the Quran is up to them.
			:You can email the FFI people here and ask them about forum issues [http://www.faithfreedom.org/contact-us/] but yes they'll be happy to debate with you. --[[User:Axius\|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius\|talk]] <nowiki>\|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius\|contribs]])</span> 05:54, 31 May 2014 (PDT)

Nightmare140: /* Quran 4:16 */

2014-05-31T11:39:15Z

Quran 4:16

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:39, 31 May 2014
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	As for why the same verse was repeated 31 times, I don't know why, and no one can know why because God is all-knowing (but I'm sure it has to contain some "miraculous" meaning as you were saying, so discussions about Islam based on the "reason" of saying something in the Qur'an are invalid because God knows the reasons of what we do, but the opposite isn't correct. So, the "divine" origin of the Qur'an as you like to quote it is proved not by the reason (although it is proved based on the reaspons in some places that we know about), but rather by the divine "meaning", "miraculous" verses and other fields...		As for why the same verse was repeated 31 times, I don't know why, and no one can know why because God is all-knowing (but I'm sure it has to contain some "miraculous" meaning as you were saying, so discussions about Islam based on the "reason" of saying something in the Qur'an are invalid because God knows the reasons of what we do, but the opposite isn't correct. So, the "divine" origin of the Qur'an as you like to quote it is proved not by the reason (although it is proved based on the reaspons in some places that we know about), but rather by the divine "meaning", "miraculous" verses and other fields...
	Don't worry, I'll not change my mind anytime soon because I'm sure of my religion. And again I'll repeat, repeating something for its importance is not considered a mistake, and not mentioning something is also not considered a mistake.		Don't worry, I'll not change my mind anytime soon because I'm sure of my religion. And again I'll repeat, repeating something for its importance is not considered a mistake, and not mentioning something is also not considered a mistake.
	As for faithfreedom, I registered there when you suggested that I do, but I've still not gotten an answer yet... Seems they didn't accept my membership for some reason (or I made a mistake of some kind, but I don't think so)		As for faithfreedom, I registered there when you suggested that I do, but I've still not gotten an answer yet... Seems they didn't accept my membership for some reason (or I made a mistake of some kind, but I don't think so)--[[User:Nightmare140\|Nightmare140]] ([[User talk:Nightmare140\|talk]]) 04:39, 31 May 2014 (PDT)

Nightmare140: /* Quran 4:16 */

2014-05-31T11:38:51Z

Quran 4:16

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:38, 31 May 2014
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	:In regards to your comments about Quran getting long if additional detail was added, no it would not. Ideally Quran should not be [https://www.google.com/search?q=quran+repetitive&spell=1&sa=X&ei=f-uIU8CoGoWSqAbizoC4DQ&ved=0CCYQvwUoAA&biw=1920&bih=860 repetitive] and for example contain the same statement [http://quran.com/55/37-78 31 times] (''"So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?"''). 30 of these verses should have been deleted from the Quran and the same words could have been used to fill out many details or perhaps include amazing [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Miracles miraculous] verses which would attempt to prove the 'divine' origin of the Quran. In the case of 4:16, it would take only one arabic word to clarify the meaning of this important verse. Mistakes like these further prove the non-divine origin of the Quran and this is realized by those [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/People_Who_Left_Islam who have left Islam] and some of them have submitted testimonies on our site using an [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Special:Form/newapostate online form]. You're welcome to use that form in the future if you change your mind about Islam. But such debates are for the [http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/ FFI forum] which you can visit.		:In regards to your comments about Quran getting long if additional detail was added, no it would not. Ideally Quran should not be [https://www.google.com/search?q=quran+repetitive&spell=1&sa=X&ei=f-uIU8CoGoWSqAbizoC4DQ&ved=0CCYQvwUoAA&biw=1920&bih=860 repetitive] and for example contain the same statement [http://quran.com/55/37-78 31 times] (''"So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?"''). 30 of these verses should have been deleted from the Quran and the same words could have been used to fill out many details or perhaps include amazing [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Miracles miraculous] verses which would attempt to prove the 'divine' origin of the Quran. In the case of 4:16, it would take only one arabic word to clarify the meaning of this important verse. Mistakes like these further prove the non-divine origin of the Quran and this is realized by those [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/People_Who_Left_Islam who have left Islam] and some of them have submitted testimonies on our site using an [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Special:Form/newapostate online form]. You're welcome to use that form in the future if you change your mind about Islam. But such debates are for the [http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/ FFI forum] which you can visit.
	:Let me know if you have any other issues relating to this article or comments that could result in the improvement of the page. --[[User:Axius\|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius\|talk]] <nowiki>\|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius\|contribs]])</span> 13:41, 30 May 2014 (PDT)		:Let me know if you have any other issues relating to this article or comments that could result in the improvement of the page. --[[User:Axius\|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius\|talk]] <nowiki>\|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius\|contribs]])</span> 13:41, 30 May 2014 (PDT)

			I know that u quote authentic, recognized translations and well-renowed Islamic scholars, but you're ignoring the fact that Muslims believe only the Qur'an doesn't contain mistakes (in addition to Hadiths that were truly told by Prophet Muhammad PBUH), so even scholars and translators commit mistakes (example: Ibn-Abbas (Or Ibn-Kathir, I don't remember) said while explaining a verse that the Earth is flat. Does that mean Islam believes Earth is flat? No, it's just that he committed a mistake based on what they thought back then)
			I, too, like these discussions because whenever I take part in one, I find out that Islam is always prejudged.
			As for why the same verse was repeated 31 times, I don't know why, and no one can know why because God is all-knowing (but I'm sure it has to contain some "miraculous" meaning as you were saying, so discussions about Islam based on the "reason" of saying something in the Qur'an are invalid because God knows the reasons of what we do, but the opposite isn't correct. So, the "divine" origin of the Qur'an as you like to quote it is proved not by the reason (although it is proved based on the reaspons in some places that we know about), but rather by the divine "meaning", "miraculous" verses and other fields...
			Don't worry, I'll not change my mind anytime soon because I'm sure of my religion. And again I'll repeat, repeating something for its importance is not considered a mistake, and not mentioning something is also not considered a mistake.
			As for faithfreedom, I registered there when you suggested that I do, but I've still not gotten an answer yet... Seems they didn't accept my membership for some reason (or I made a mistake of some kind, but I don't think so)

Axius: /* Quran 4:16 */

2014-05-30T21:57:33Z

Quran 4:16

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:57, 30 May 2014
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	:I like these kinds of discussions as they result in further improvement of our site. In this case I found out additional Tafsirs should be present on the page.		:I like these kinds of discussions as they result in further improvement of our site. In this case I found out additional Tafsirs should be present on the page.
	:In regards to your comments about Quran getting long if additional detail was added, no it would not. Ideally Quran should not be [https://www.google.com/search?q=quran+repetitive&spell=1&sa=X&ei=f-uIU8CoGoWSqAbizoC4DQ&ved=0CCYQvwUoAA&biw=1920&bih=860 repetitive] and for example contain the same statement [http://quran.com/55/37-78 31 times] (''"So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?"''). 30 of these verses should have been deleted from the Quran and the same words could have been used to fill out many details or perhaps include amazing [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Miracles miraculous] verses which would attempt to prove the 'divine' origin of the Quran. In the case of 4:16, it would take only one arabic word to clarify the meaning of this important verse. Mistakes like these further prove the non-divine origin of the Quran and this is realized by those [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/People_Who_Left_Islam who have left Islam] and some of them have submitted testimonies on our site using an [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Special:Form/newapostate online form]. You're welcome to use that form in the future if you change your mind about Islam. But such debates are for the [http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/ FFI forum] which you can visit.		:In regards to your comments about Quran getting long if additional detail was added, no it would not. Ideally Quran should not be [https://www.google.com/search?q=quran+repetitive&spell=1&sa=X&ei=f-uIU8CoGoWSqAbizoC4DQ&ved=0CCYQvwUoAA&biw=1920&bih=860 repetitive] and for example contain the same statement [http://quran.com/55/37-78 31 times] (''"So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?"''). 30 of these verses should have been deleted from the Quran and the same words could have been used to fill out many details or perhaps include amazing [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Miracles miraculous] verses which would attempt to prove the 'divine' origin of the Quran. In the case of 4:16, it would take only one arabic word to clarify the meaning of this important verse. Mistakes like these further prove the non-divine origin of the Quran and this is realized by those [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/People_Who_Left_Islam who have left Islam] and some of them have submitted testimonies on our site using an [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Special:Form/newapostate online form]. You're welcome to use that form in the future if you change your mind about Islam. But such debates are for the [http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/ FFI forum] which you can visit.
	:~~Any~~ other issues relating to this article or comments that could result in the improvement of the ~~page? I want to look at some other pages and see if any additional things can be found to add to this~~ page. --[[User:Axius\|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius\|talk]] <nowiki>\|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius\|contribs]])</span> 13:41, 30 May 2014 (PDT)		:Let me know if you have any other issues relating to this article or comments that could result in the improvement of the page. --[[User:Axius\|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius\|talk]] <nowiki>\|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius\|contribs]])</span> 13:41, 30 May 2014 (PDT)

Axius: /* Quran 4:16 */

2014-05-30T20:57:38Z

Quran 4:16

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:57, 30 May 2014
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	:We just quote authentic, recognized translations and in addition if they are supported by Tafsirs of of well-renowned Islamic scholars, that is more than what needs to be done. If you have a problem with the sources, you can start contacting Islamic scholars around the world and get them to invalidate Yusuf Ali's translation and the two Tafsirs (Tafsir Al-Jalalayn and Tafsir Ibn Kathir)		:We just quote authentic, recognized translations and in addition if they are supported by Tafsirs of of well-renowned Islamic scholars, that is more than what needs to be done. If you have a problem with the sources, you can start contacting Islamic scholars around the world and get them to invalidate Yusuf Ali's translation and the two Tafsirs (Tafsir Al-Jalalayn and Tafsir Ibn Kathir)
	:I like these kinds of discussions as they result in further improvement of our site. In this case I found out additional Tafsirs should be present on the page.		:I like these kinds of discussions as they result in further improvement of our site. In this case I found out additional Tafsirs should be present on the page.
	:In regards to your comments about Quran getting long if additional detail was added, no it would not. Ideally Quran should not be [https://www.google.com/search?q=quran+repetitive&spell=1&sa=X&ei=f-uIU8CoGoWSqAbizoC4DQ&ved=0CCYQvwUoAA&biw=1920&bih=860 repetitive] and for example contain the same statement [http://quran.com/55/37-78 31 times] (''"So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?"''). 30 of these verses should have been deleted from the Quran and the same words could have been used to fill out many details or perhaps include amazing [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Miracles miraculous] verses which would attempt to prove the 'divine' origin of the Quran. In the case of 4:16, it would take only one arabic word to clarify the meaning of this important verse. Mistakes like these further prove the non-divine origin of the Quran. But such debates are for the [http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/ FFI forum] which you can visit.		:In regards to your comments about Quran getting long if additional detail was added, no it would not. Ideally Quran should not be [https://www.google.com/search?q=quran+repetitive&spell=1&sa=X&ei=f-uIU8CoGoWSqAbizoC4DQ&ved=0CCYQvwUoAA&biw=1920&bih=860 repetitive] and for example contain the same statement [http://quran.com/55/37-78 31 times] (''"So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?"''). 30 of these verses should have been deleted from the Quran and the same words could have been used to fill out many details or perhaps include amazing [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Miracles miraculous] verses which would attempt to prove the 'divine' origin of the Quran. In the case of 4:16, it would take only one arabic word to clarify the meaning of this important verse. Mistakes like these further prove the non-divine origin of the Quran and this is realized by those [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/People_Who_Left_Islam who have left Islam] and some of them have submitted testimonies on our site using an [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Special:Form/newapostate online form]. You're welcome to use that form in the future if you change your mind about Islam. But such debates are for the [http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/ FFI forum] which you can visit.
	:Any other issues relating to this article or comments that could result in the improvement of the page? --[[User:Axius\|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius\|talk]] <nowiki>\|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius\|contribs]])</span> 13:41, 30 May 2014 (PDT)		:Any other issues relating to this article or comments that could result in the improvement of the page? I want to look at some other pages and see if any additional things can be found to add to this page. --[[User:Axius\|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius\|talk]] <nowiki>\|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius\|contribs]])</span> 13:41, 30 May 2014 (PDT)