User talk:Sauron - Revision history

Sauron: /* List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines (2021) */

2021-02-09T06:02:38Z

List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines (2021)

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:02, 9 February 2021
Line 7:		Line 7:
	: I updated the page with proper referencing and nuanced the claims. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 22:50, 29 January 2021 (UTC)		: I updated the page with proper referencing and nuanced the claims. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 22:50, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

	Thank you IbnPinker.		Thank you IbnPinker.(Sauron)

	==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==		==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==

Sauron: /* List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines (2021) */

2021-02-09T06:02:23Z

List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines (2021)

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:02, 9 February 2021
Line 6:		Line 6:
	: Yes, although some of those sources are still good for the claim that these women 'were perfect' - but these footnotes/references should just appear in the cell containing the body text, not in the right-most cell, which purports to contain the reference for their relationships to Muhammad. I'll make some basic edits to this effect which you can add to later, if you'd like. Thanks again for bringing this up - it is important that the wiki does not contain false/misleading claims. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 21:53, 29 January 2021 (UTC)		: Yes, although some of those sources are still good for the claim that these women 'were perfect' - but these footnotes/references should just appear in the cell containing the body text, not in the right-most cell, which purports to contain the reference for their relationships to Muhammad. I'll make some basic edits to this effect which you can add to later, if you'd like. Thanks again for bringing this up - it is important that the wiki does not contain false/misleading claims. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 21:53, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
	: I updated the page with proper referencing and nuanced the claims. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 22:50, 29 January 2021 (UTC)		: I updated the page with proper referencing and nuanced the claims. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 22:50, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

			Thank you IbnPinker.

	==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==		==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==

IbnPinker at 22:50, 29 January 2021

2021-01-29T22:50:44Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:50, 29 January 2021
Line 5:		Line 5:
	I agree probably best to just delete the sources that do not support the argument and just leave the ones that do. (Sauron)		I agree probably best to just delete the sources that do not support the argument and just leave the ones that do. (Sauron)
	: Yes, although some of those sources are still good for the claim that these women 'were perfect' - but these footnotes/references should just appear in the cell containing the body text, not in the right-most cell, which purports to contain the reference for their relationships to Muhammad. I'll make some basic edits to this effect which you can add to later, if you'd like. Thanks again for bringing this up - it is important that the wiki does not contain false/misleading claims. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 21:53, 29 January 2021 (UTC)		: Yes, although some of those sources are still good for the claim that these women 'were perfect' - but these footnotes/references should just appear in the cell containing the body text, not in the right-most cell, which purports to contain the reference for their relationships to Muhammad. I'll make some basic edits to this effect which you can add to later, if you'd like. Thanks again for bringing this up - it is important that the wiki does not contain false/misleading claims. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 21:53, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
	: ~~Hey,~~ I updated the page with proper referencing and nuanced the claims~~. Take a look and let me know what you think~~. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 22:50, 29 January 2021 (UTC)		: I updated the page with proper referencing and nuanced the claims. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 22:50, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

	==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==		==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==

IbnPinker at 22:50, 29 January 2021

2021-01-29T22:50:26Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:50, 29 January 2021
Line 5:		Line 5:
	I agree probably best to just delete the sources that do not support the argument and just leave the ones that do. (Sauron)		I agree probably best to just delete the sources that do not support the argument and just leave the ones that do. (Sauron)
	: Yes, although some of those sources are still good for the claim that these women 'were perfect' - but these footnotes/references should just appear in the cell containing the body text, not in the right-most cell, which purports to contain the reference for their relationships to Muhammad. I'll make some basic edits to this effect which you can add to later, if you'd like. Thanks again for bringing this up - it is important that the wiki does not contain false/misleading claims. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 21:53, 29 January 2021 (UTC)		: Yes, although some of those sources are still good for the claim that these women 'were perfect' - but these footnotes/references should just appear in the cell containing the body text, not in the right-most cell, which purports to contain the reference for their relationships to Muhammad. I'll make some basic edits to this effect which you can add to later, if you'd like. Thanks again for bringing this up - it is important that the wiki does not contain false/misleading claims. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 21:53, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
			: Hey, I updated the page with proper referencing and nuanced the claims. Take a look and let me know what you think. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 22:50, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

	==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==		==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==

IbnPinker at 21:53, 29 January 2021

2021-01-29T21:53:30Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:53, 29 January 2021
Line 1:		Line 1:
	==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines~~#cite_note-92~~ List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines (2021)]==		==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines (2021)]==

	Hey Sauran, good catch regarding the lack of strong references for Muhammad's marriage to Mary etc. in the hereafter. There are, however, other hadiths of varying authenticity to this effect (compiled, for instance starting in [https://app.turath.io/book/4445 volume 2 page 431 of Ibn Kathir's ''al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah'']). I think that the sections for the three women should be left in the article and that it should be indicated clearly that there are no references to these ideas in 'authentic Islamic sources' as well as the fact that the idea plainly did crop up in the tradition nonetheless (and especially, as with the source you discussed with Axius, in the Shia tradition). Perhaps you can incorporate this nuance into the relevant sections rather than trying to delete them altogether; how does that sound? There are varying shades of certainty as to what comprises Islam, and this issue is of a clearly a less certain shade than, for instance, the prophethood of Muhammad. We can and should still cover topics having lesser shades of certainty, especially where they are interesting (as here), but must also acknowledge their inferior position in the tradition, as you pointed out. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 18:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC)		Hey Sauran, good catch regarding the lack of strong references for Muhammad's marriage to Mary etc. in the hereafter. There are, however, other hadiths of varying authenticity to this effect (compiled, for instance starting in [https://app.turath.io/book/4445 volume 2 page 431 of Ibn Kathir's ''al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah'']). I think that the sections for the three women should be left in the article and that it should be indicated clearly that there are no references to these ideas in 'authentic Islamic sources' as well as the fact that the idea plainly did crop up in the tradition nonetheless (and especially, as with the source you discussed with Axius, in the Shia tradition). Perhaps you can incorporate this nuance into the relevant sections rather than trying to delete them altogether; how does that sound? There are varying shades of certainty as to what comprises Islam, and this issue is of a clearly a less certain shade than, for instance, the prophethood of Muhammad. We can and should still cover topics having lesser shades of certainty, especially where they are interesting (as here), but must also acknowledge their inferior position in the tradition, as you pointed out. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 18:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

	I agree probably best to just delete the sources that do not support the argument and just leave the ones that do. (Sauron)		I agree probably best to just delete the sources that do not support the argument and just leave the ones that do. (Sauron)
			: Yes, although some of those sources are still good for the claim that these women 'were perfect' - but these footnotes/references should just appear in the cell containing the body text, not in the right-most cell, which purports to contain the reference for their relationships to Muhammad. I'll make some basic edits to this effect which you can add to later, if you'd like. Thanks again for bringing this up - it is important that the wiki does not contain false/misleading claims. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 21:53, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

	==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==		==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==

Sauron: /* List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines (2021) */

2021-01-29T15:35:05Z

List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines (2021)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:35, 29 January 2021
Line 3:		Line 3:
	Hey Sauran, good catch regarding the lack of strong references for Muhammad's marriage to Mary etc. in the hereafter. There are, however, other hadiths of varying authenticity to this effect (compiled, for instance starting in [https://app.turath.io/book/4445 volume 2 page 431 of Ibn Kathir's ''al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah'']). I think that the sections for the three women should be left in the article and that it should be indicated clearly that there are no references to these ideas in 'authentic Islamic sources' as well as the fact that the idea plainly did crop up in the tradition nonetheless (and especially, as with the source you discussed with Axius, in the Shia tradition). Perhaps you can incorporate this nuance into the relevant sections rather than trying to delete them altogether; how does that sound? There are varying shades of certainty as to what comprises Islam, and this issue is of a clearly a less certain shade than, for instance, the prophethood of Muhammad. We can and should still cover topics having lesser shades of certainty, especially where they are interesting (as here), but must also acknowledge their inferior position in the tradition, as you pointed out. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 18:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC)		Hey Sauran, good catch regarding the lack of strong references for Muhammad's marriage to Mary etc. in the hereafter. There are, however, other hadiths of varying authenticity to this effect (compiled, for instance starting in [https://app.turath.io/book/4445 volume 2 page 431 of Ibn Kathir's ''al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah'']). I think that the sections for the three women should be left in the article and that it should be indicated clearly that there are no references to these ideas in 'authentic Islamic sources' as well as the fact that the idea plainly did crop up in the tradition nonetheless (and especially, as with the source you discussed with Axius, in the Shia tradition). Perhaps you can incorporate this nuance into the relevant sections rather than trying to delete them altogether; how does that sound? There are varying shades of certainty as to what comprises Islam, and this issue is of a clearly a less certain shade than, for instance, the prophethood of Muhammad. We can and should still cover topics having lesser shades of certainty, especially where they are interesting (as here), but must also acknowledge their inferior position in the tradition, as you pointed out. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 18:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

	I agree probably best to just delete the sources that do not support the argument and just leave the ones that do.		I agree probably best to just delete the sources that do not support the argument and just leave the ones that do. (Sauron)

	==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==		==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==

Sauron: /* List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines (2021) */

2021-01-29T15:34:38Z

List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines (2021)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:34, 29 January 2021
Line 2:		Line 2:

	Hey Sauran, good catch regarding the lack of strong references for Muhammad's marriage to Mary etc. in the hereafter. There are, however, other hadiths of varying authenticity to this effect (compiled, for instance starting in [https://app.turath.io/book/4445 volume 2 page 431 of Ibn Kathir's ''al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah'']). I think that the sections for the three women should be left in the article and that it should be indicated clearly that there are no references to these ideas in 'authentic Islamic sources' as well as the fact that the idea plainly did crop up in the tradition nonetheless (and especially, as with the source you discussed with Axius, in the Shia tradition). Perhaps you can incorporate this nuance into the relevant sections rather than trying to delete them altogether; how does that sound? There are varying shades of certainty as to what comprises Islam, and this issue is of a clearly a less certain shade than, for instance, the prophethood of Muhammad. We can and should still cover topics having lesser shades of certainty, especially where they are interesting (as here), but must also acknowledge their inferior position in the tradition, as you pointed out. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 18:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC)		Hey Sauran, good catch regarding the lack of strong references for Muhammad's marriage to Mary etc. in the hereafter. There are, however, other hadiths of varying authenticity to this effect (compiled, for instance starting in [https://app.turath.io/book/4445 volume 2 page 431 of Ibn Kathir's ''al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah'']). I think that the sections for the three women should be left in the article and that it should be indicated clearly that there are no references to these ideas in 'authentic Islamic sources' as well as the fact that the idea plainly did crop up in the tradition nonetheless (and especially, as with the source you discussed with Axius, in the Shia tradition). Perhaps you can incorporate this nuance into the relevant sections rather than trying to delete them altogether; how does that sound? There are varying shades of certainty as to what comprises Islam, and this issue is of a clearly a less certain shade than, for instance, the prophethood of Muhammad. We can and should still cover topics having lesser shades of certainty, especially where they are interesting (as here), but must also acknowledge their inferior position in the tradition, as you pointed out. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 18:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

			I agree probably best to just delete the sources that do not support the argument and just leave the ones that do.

	==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==		==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==

IbnPinker at 18:07, 25 January 2021

2021-01-25T18:07:54Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:07, 25 January 2021
Line 1:		Line 1:
	==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines (2021)]==		==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines (2021)]==

	Hey Sauran, good catch regarding the lack of strong references for Muhammad's marriage to Mary etc. in the hereafter. There are, however, other hadiths of varying authenticity to this effect (compiled, for instance starting in [https://app.turath.io/book/4445 volume 2 page 431 of Ibn Kathir's ''al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah'']). I think that the sections for the three women should be left in the article and that it should be indicated clearly that there are no references to these ideas in 'authentic Islamic sources' as well as the fact that the idea plainly did crop up in the tradition nonetheless (and especially, as with the source you discussed with Axius, in the Shia tradition). Perhaps you can incorporate this nuance into the relevant sections rather than trying to delete them altogether; how does that sound? There are varying shades of certainty as to what comprises Islam, and this issue is of a clearly a less certain shade than, for instance, the prophethood of Muhammad. We can and should still cover topics having lesser shades of certainty, especially where they are interesting (as here), but must also acknowledge their inferior position in the tradition. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 18:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC)		Hey Sauran, good catch regarding the lack of strong references for Muhammad's marriage to Mary etc. in the hereafter. There are, however, other hadiths of varying authenticity to this effect (compiled, for instance starting in [https://app.turath.io/book/4445 volume 2 page 431 of Ibn Kathir's ''al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah'']). I think that the sections for the three women should be left in the article and that it should be indicated clearly that there are no references to these ideas in 'authentic Islamic sources' as well as the fact that the idea plainly did crop up in the tradition nonetheless (and especially, as with the source you discussed with Axius, in the Shia tradition). Perhaps you can incorporate this nuance into the relevant sections rather than trying to delete them altogether; how does that sound? There are varying shades of certainty as to what comprises Islam, and this issue is of a clearly a less certain shade than, for instance, the prophethood of Muhammad. We can and should still cover topics having lesser shades of certainty, especially where they are interesting (as here), but must also acknowledge their inferior position in the tradition, as you pointed out. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 18:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

	==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==		==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==

IbnPinker at 18:07, 25 January 2021

2021-01-25T18:07:37Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:07, 25 January 2021
Line 1:		Line 1:
	==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines (2021)]==		==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines (2021)]==

	Hey Sauran, good catch regarding the lack of strong references for Muhammad's marriage to Mary etc. in the hereafter. There are, however, other hadiths of varying authenticity to this effect (compiled, for instance starting in [https://app.turath.io/book/4445 volume 2 page 431 of Ibn Kathir's ''al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah'']). I think that the sections for the three women should be left in the article and that it should be indicated clearly that there are no references to these ideas in 'authentic Islamic sources' as well as the fact that the idea plainly did crop up in the tradition nonetheless (and especially, as with the source you discussed with Axius, in the Shia tradition). Perhaps you can incorporate this nuance into the relevant sections rather than trying to delete them altogether; how does that sound? There are varying shades of certainty as to what comprises Islam, and this issue is of a clearly a less certain shade than, for instance, the prophethood of Muhammad. We can and should still cover topics having lesser shades of certainty, especially where they are interesting (as here), but must also acknowledge their inferior position in the tradition.[[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 18:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC)		Hey Sauran, good catch regarding the lack of strong references for Muhammad's marriage to Mary etc. in the hereafter. There are, however, other hadiths of varying authenticity to this effect (compiled, for instance starting in [https://app.turath.io/book/4445 volume 2 page 431 of Ibn Kathir's ''al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah'']). I think that the sections for the three women should be left in the article and that it should be indicated clearly that there are no references to these ideas in 'authentic Islamic sources' as well as the fact that the idea plainly did crop up in the tradition nonetheless (and especially, as with the source you discussed with Axius, in the Shia tradition). Perhaps you can incorporate this nuance into the relevant sections rather than trying to delete them altogether; how does that sound? There are varying shades of certainty as to what comprises Islam, and this issue is of a clearly a less certain shade than, for instance, the prophethood of Muhammad. We can and should still cover topics having lesser shades of certainty, especially where they are interesting (as here), but must also acknowledge their inferior position in the tradition. [[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 18:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

	==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==		==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==

IbnPinker at 18:07, 25 January 2021

2021-01-25T18:07:27Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:07, 25 January 2021
Line 1:		Line 1:
			==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines (2021)]==

			Hey Sauran, good catch regarding the lack of strong references for Muhammad's marriage to Mary etc. in the hereafter. There are, however, other hadiths of varying authenticity to this effect (compiled, for instance starting in [https://app.turath.io/book/4445 volume 2 page 431 of Ibn Kathir's ''al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah'']). I think that the sections for the three women should be left in the article and that it should be indicated clearly that there are no references to these ideas in 'authentic Islamic sources' as well as the fact that the idea plainly did crop up in the tradition nonetheless (and especially, as with the source you discussed with Axius, in the Shia tradition). Perhaps you can incorporate this nuance into the relevant sections rather than trying to delete them altogether; how does that sound? There are varying shades of certainty as to what comprises Islam, and this issue is of a clearly a less certain shade than, for instance, the prophethood of Muhammad. We can and should still cover topics having lesser shades of certainty, especially where they are interesting (as here), but must also acknowledge their inferior position in the tradition.[[User:IbnPinker\|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker\|talk]]) 18:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

	==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==		==[https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines#cite_note-92 List of Muhammad's Wives and Concubines]==

	Hayat Al-Qulub Vol. 2, (pg 415) the 4th mentioned reference which you did not read, says:		Hayat Al-Qulub Vol. 2, (pg 415) the 4th mentioned reference which you did not read, says: