Women's Intelligence and the Islamic Tradition - Revision history

Lightyears: Automated script replacing USC-MSA hadith numbering system for Bukhari, Muslim, and Abu Dawud

2025-11-15T01:16:35Z

Automated script replacing USC-MSA hadith numbering system for Bukhari, Muslim, and Abu Dawud

AdrianE: Fixed some typos.

2024-06-12T19:42:45Z

Fixed some typos.

IbnPinker at 17:25, 19 May 2021

2021-05-19T17:25:55Z

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	{{QualityScore\|Lead=3\|Structure=3\|Content=4\|Language=4\|References=4}}		{{QualityScore\|Lead=3\|Structure=4\|Content=3\|Language=4\|References=4}}
	The [[Quran]] and authentic [[Hadith\|Hadiths]] both directly and indirectly declare [[Islam and Women\|women]] to be frivolous, unintelligent, ungrateful, and religiously and legally disabled as a result. The attitudes towards women these ideas give rise to have underpinned Islamic thinking and [[Shari'ah (Islamic Law)\|Islamic law]] ever since [[Muhammad]]'s time and the founding of Islam in the deeply patriarchal culture of tribal 7th-century Arabia, where and when these ideas found ample precedent.		The [[Quran]] and authentic [[Hadith\|Hadiths]] both directly and indirectly declare [[Islam and Women\|women]] to be frivolous, unintelligent, ungrateful, and religiously and legally disabled as a result. The attitudes towards women these ideas give rise to have underpinned Islamic thinking and [[Shari'ah (Islamic Law)\|Islamic law]] ever since [[Muhammad]]'s time and the founding of Islam in the deeply patriarchal culture of tribal 7th-century Arabia, where and when these ideas found ample precedent.

IbnPinker at 17:24, 19 May 2021

2021-05-19T17:24:43Z

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	Among the beliefs and rulings resulting from the Islamic doctrine of women being, as a rule, less intelligent and religious than men are the halved value of female testimony in a Sharia court compared to that of a man and the doctrine that the majority of Hell's inhabitants are women.		Among the beliefs and rulings resulting from the Islamic doctrine of women being, as a rule, less intelligent and religious than men are the halved value of female testimony in a Sharia court compared to that of a man and the doctrine that the majority of Hell's inhabitants are women.

			While in modern times many Islamic modernists a few Islamic traditionalists have countered these traditional doctrines, the unusually explicit and straightforward nature of the scriptures concerned as well as their direct reference to one another has made it difficult for these new perspectives to gain much purchase beyond certain limited circles. The mainstream understanding, meanwhile, continues to remain firmly on the side of the traditional and classical authorities.

	==In Islamic scriptures==		==In Islamic scriptures==

IbnPinker at 17:21, 19 May 2021

2021-05-19T17:21:26Z

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	{{QualityScore\|Lead=1\|Structure=3\|Content=4\|Language=2\|References=4}}		{{QualityScore\|Lead=3\|Structure=3\|Content=4\|Language=4\|References=4}}
	The [[~~Islam\|Islamic~~]] ~~tradition from the~~ [[Hadith]] and ~~later material agrees on the general supposition that women are inferior in intelligence vis-a-vis men. That all~~ [[Islam and Women\|women]] ~~are [[Creation\|created]] less intelligent than their male counterparts is used as an explanation for several Islamic doctrines~~ and ~~rules of jurisprudence, including the belief that women make up the majority of the denizens of [[Jahannam (Hell)\|Hell]]~~ and ~~the lower value of~~ a ~~woman's testimony against a man's in~~ Islamic [[Shari'ah (Islamic Law)\|~~Shari'ah~~]] ~~courts~~.		The [[Quran]] and authentic [[Hadith\|Hadiths]] both directly and indirectly declare [[Islam and Women\|women]] to be frivolous, unintelligent, ungrateful, and religiously and legally disabled as a result. The attitudes towards women these ideas give rise to have underpinned Islamic thinking and [[Shari'ah (Islamic Law)\|Islamic law]] ever since [[Muhammad]]'s time and the founding of Islam in the deeply patriarchal culture of tribal 7th-century Arabia, where and when these ideas found ample precedent.

	~~According to~~ the ~~Hadith,~~ the ~~Prophet [[Muhammad\|Muhammad's]] once declared that the majority of the inhabitants~~ of ~~[[Hell]] are~~ women~~.<ref>{{Bukhari\|1\|6\|301}}</ref> When asked why~~, ~~he said it was because they are deficient in intelligence and religion~~, and ~~because they~~ are ~~ungrateful~~ to ~~their husbands. The Hadith clearly presents Muhammad's belief as being~~ that ~~''all'' women are less intelligent than their male counterparts;~~ the ~~traditional Islamic view is~~ that ~~this deficiency was not mitigated or qualified in any way be~~ the ~~prophet~~.		Among the beliefs and rulings resulting from the Islamic doctrine of women being, as a rule, less intelligent and religious than men are the halved value of female testimony in a Sharia court compared to that of a man and the doctrine that the majority of Hell's inhabitants are women.

	==In Islamic scriptures==		==In Islamic scriptures==
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	===Muhammad was joking===		===Muhammad was joking===

	Still others have, in recent times, suggested that the hadiths about women's mental deficiency, religious deficiency, and majority share in Hell be read sarcastically or satirically. The idea here, it appears, is that Muhammad, being very familiar with the women in his community, would have understood that in saying what he did, he would not be taken seriously. While sarcasm can be infamously challenging to detect in historical texts, particularly where cultural mores and expectations have changed dramatically with time, there is little in the relevant portions of scripture to suggest Muhammad was being anything but serious in his statements. Traditionalists are incensed by the insinuation that Muhammad could have been making light of such a theologically important matter as the inhabitants of hell or that he could have cited the Quran and Sharia to buttress what was only meant as a joke. Non-Muslim participants in this discussion have found this argument similarly incredible.		Still others have, in recent times, suggested that the hadiths about women's mental deficiency, religious deficiency, and majority share in Hell be read sarcastically or satirically. The idea here, it appears, is that Muhammad, being very familiar with the women in his community, would have understood that in saying what he did, he would not be taken seriously. While sarcasm can be infamously challenging to detect in historical texts, particularly where cultural mores and expectations have changed dramatically with time, there is little in the relevant portions of scripture to suggest Muhammad was being anything but serious in his statements. Traditionalists are incensed by the insinuation that Muhammad could have been making light of such a theologically important matter as the inhabitants of hell or that he could have cited the Quran and Sharia to buttress what was only meant as a joke. Traditionalists encountering this interpretation also worry that by dismissing these hadiths and even verses as being satirical or sarcastic in nature, there is a risk that much else in the scriptures could come to be similarly dismissed, severely undermining traditional authority. Non-Muslim participants in this discussion have found this argument similarly incredible, albeit for non-theological reasons alone.

	===Reinterpreting Quran 43:18===		===Reinterpreting Quran 43:18===

IbnPinker: /* Conclusion */

2021-05-19T17:09:54Z

Conclusion

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	Still others have, in recent times, suggested that the hadiths about women's mental deficiency, religious deficiency, and majority share in Hell be read sarcastically or satirically. The idea here, it appears, is that Muhammad, being very familiar with the women in his community, would have understood that in saying what he did, he would not be taken seriously. While sarcasm can be infamously challenging to detect in historical texts, particularly where cultural mores and expectations have changed dramatically with time, there is little in the relevant portions of scripture to suggest Muhammad was being anything but serious in his statements. Traditionalists are incensed by the insinuation that Muhammad could have been making light of such a theologically important matter as the inhabitants of hell or that he could have cited the Quran and Sharia to buttress what was only meant as a joke. Non-Muslim participants in this discussion have found this argument similarly incredible.		Still others have, in recent times, suggested that the hadiths about women's mental deficiency, religious deficiency, and majority share in Hell be read sarcastically or satirically. The idea here, it appears, is that Muhammad, being very familiar with the women in his community, would have understood that in saying what he did, he would not be taken seriously. While sarcasm can be infamously challenging to detect in historical texts, particularly where cultural mores and expectations have changed dramatically with time, there is little in the relevant portions of scripture to suggest Muhammad was being anything but serious in his statements. Traditionalists are incensed by the insinuation that Muhammad could have been making light of such a theologically important matter as the inhabitants of hell or that he could have cited the Quran and Sharia to buttress what was only meant as a joke. Non-Muslim participants in this discussion have found this argument similarly incredible.

	=== Reinterpreting Quran 43:18 ===		===Reinterpreting Quran 43:18===
	Some modern Muslim scholars have shifted to interpreting {{Quran\|43\|18}} as a simple description of pagan attitudes towards women rather than an affirmation of those attitudes.<ref>{{Citation\|archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20120518193855/http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=12885&CATE=88\|url=http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=12885&CATE=88\|title=Tafseer Quran 43:18: does this verse view women negatively?\|author=Shaykh Sohail Hanif\|publisher=SunniPath}}</ref> However, the following verse ({{Quran\|43\|19}}) uses the same interrogative and exclamatory device found earlier in the passage -- a statement of what the pagans believed followed by an ''alif'' (translated "What!") -- and then Allah's rebuttal ("did they witness their creation?") which expresses incredulity and outrage. Thus it seems more likely that in {{Quran\|43\|18}} Allah is making what he thinks is a factual counter-argument (i.e. that women are frivolous and unintelligent) to contradict the pagan belief in the daughters of Allah.		Some modern Muslim scholars have shifted to interpreting {{Quran\|43\|18}} as a simple description of pagan attitudes towards women rather than an affirmation of those attitudes.<ref>{{Citation\|archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20120518193855/http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=12885&CATE=88\|url=http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=12885&CATE=88\|title=Tafseer Quran 43:18: does this verse view women negatively?\|author=Shaykh Sohail Hanif\|publisher=SunniPath}}</ref> However, the following verse ({{Quran\|43\|19}}) uses the same interrogative and exclamatory device found earlier in the passage -- a statement of what the pagans believed followed by an ''alif'' (translated "What!") -- and then Allah's rebuttal ("did they witness their creation?") which expresses incredulity and outrage. Thus it seems more likely that in {{Quran\|43\|18}} Allah is making what he thinks is a factual counter-argument (i.e. that women are frivolous and unintelligent) to contradict the pagan belief in the daughters of Allah.
			==See also==
	~~==Conclusion==~~

	The meaning of these ahadith is very clear. Prophet Muhammad "blanketed" a statement over every single woman who has ever and will ever live. Despite many creative ways to explain away the meaning and implications of these ahadith, the actual evidence cannot be denied. Muhammad clearly said that women are deficient in intelligence because, in Islam, the value of their testimony is equal to that of half a man. If the Qur'an is a book for all people for all time, then that mandate stands; thus Muhammad was referring to all women in general; and not just a specific group of women.

	~~===Further thoughts on these ahadith===~~

	~~This set of hadiths clearly show Muhammad's desire to control and make women subservient to him. Look at the three reasons that Muhammad lists for women being in Allah's Hell:~~

	1. Deficient in Intelligence: The Qur'an was 'revealed' by Muhammad on behalf of his imaginary deity, Allah; thus Muhammad himself made the requirement that the testimony of two women is equal to a man. He then goes on to tell women that they will most likely end up in hell; because their intellectual deficiency, which he defined and imposed 'safeguards' against. No evidence; just "I said so!" What better way to belittle women than to continually remind them that they are 'stupid'.

	2. Deficient in Religion: Again, Muhammad himself 'revealed' the entirety of Islam; its rules, regulations and requirements, rewards etc.. What better way to keep women down? Tell them your works-based religion, that they cannot perform any of these good works (praying, fasting etc..) when they are menstruating. This keeps them in a state of fear, because they have to make up for the days they were unable to be 'pious'; making them more submissive to Islam then men. Then you get Muhammad who comes along, after making this silly rule about menstruation; and tells women that most of them will end up in hell because of it. In essence, he's saying that in ''his'' religion, women will end up in hell simply for being born female.

	3. Ungrateful to their Husbands: Again, Muhammad wanted his wives; and all Muslim women within his reach (in case he wanted to marry them) to be as submissive to their husbands as possible. He scares them with threats of hellfire to make them more submissive, and fearful of Allah; thereby keeping women under the thumb of their husbands.
	As a result, to this day, Muslim women, and women in general, are thought of by Muslims as intellectually inferior to themselves. Perhaps this is why Muslim women especially are trying to twist the meaning of these ahadith and narrow down the testimony requirement in Quran 2:282; its either that or admit Muhammad was wrong.
	==See ~~Also~~==
	{{Hub4\|Creation\|Creation}}		{{Hub4\|Creation\|Creation}}

	~~{{Translation-links-english\|[[Недостиг на интелигентност при жените\|Bulgarian]], [[ La deficienza dintelligenza delle donne\|Italian]]}}~~		==External links==

	==External ~~Links~~==

	*[http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1930.htm Muslim Cleric Presents "Scientific" Proof that Women Cannot Talk and Remember Simultaneously (video)]		*[http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1930.htm Muslim Cleric Presents "Scientific" Proof that Women Cannot Talk and Remember Simultaneously] (MEMRI video featuring Abd Al-Majid Al-Zindani)
	*[http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35888 Quran 2:282, Why does Allah mandate this Requirement?] - ~~''FFI Forum discussion with a Muslim regarding why two women are required to give testimony in the absence of one Man. "Just a Woman" (the Muslim~~) ~~continually tries to separate the ahadith from the Qur'an verse in order to 'explain' them separately''~~

	==References==		==References==

IbnPinker: /* Quran 43:16-19 */

2021-05-19T14:03:16Z

Quran 43:16-19

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	===Quran 43:16-19===		===Quran 43:16-19===
	In {{Quran-range\|43\|16\|19}}, God is recorded responding to what is perceived as the very insulting idea found with Muhammad's contemporaries that God should have daughters rather than sons and that the female should have any share in the divine. In identifying why God's having a daughter should be more insulting than the equally pagan notion that he should have a son, the Quran states that because the Arabs themselves detest having daughters rather than sons, it is unbecoming that they should attribute daughters rather than sons to God. In {{Quran\|43\|18}}, God goes on to specify why people may feel undesirous of daughters, and suggests that it is because they are "brought up in ornaments", "trinkets", or "outward show" and are inept in their argumentation. ~~The Quran does, rather~~ than dissenting from this description of women, ~~suggests~~ that this description constitutes yet another reason why God especially should not have daughters.{{quote \|{{Quran-range\|43\|16\|19}}\|'''Corpus:''' Or has He taken of what, He has created, daughters and He has chosen (for) you sons. And when is given good news, (to) one of them, of what he sets up for the Most Gracious (as) a likeness, becomes his face dark and he (is) filled with grief. '''Then (is one) who is brought up in ornaments and he in the dispute (is) not clear.''' And they made, the Angels, those who themselves (are) slaves (of) the Most Gracious, females. Did they witness their creation? Will be recorded their testimony, and they will be questioned.<br>		In {{Quran-range\|43\|16\|19}}, God is recorded responding to what is perceived as the very insulting idea found with Muhammad's contemporaries that God should have daughters rather than sons and that the female should have any share in the divine. In identifying why God's having a daughter should be more insulting than the equally pagan notion that he should have a son, the Quran states that because the Arabs themselves detest having daughters rather than sons, it is unbecoming that they should attribute daughters rather than sons to God. In {{Quran\|43\|18}}, God goes on to specify why people may feel undesirous of daughters, and suggests that it is because they are "brought up in ornaments", "trinkets", or "outward show" and are inept in their argumentation. Rather than dissenting from this description of women, the following verse goes on to suggest in that this description constitutes yet another reason why God especially should not have daughters.{{quote \|{{Quran-range\|43\|16\|19}}\|'''Corpus:''' Or has He taken of what, He has created, daughters and He has chosen (for) you sons. And when is given good news, (to) one of them, of what he sets up for the Most Gracious (as) a likeness, becomes his face dark and he (is) filled with grief. '''Then (is one) who is brought up in ornaments and he in the dispute (is) not clear.''' And they made, the Angels, those who themselves (are) slaves (of) the Most Gracious, females. Did they witness their creation? Will be recorded their testimony, and they will be questioned.<br>
	'''Yusuf Ali:''' What! has He taken daughters out of what He himself creates, and granted to you sons for choice? When news is brought to one of them of (the birth of) what he sets up as a likeness to (Allah) Most Gracious, his face darkens, and he is filled with inward grief! '''Is then one brought up among trinkets, and unable to give a clear account in a dispute (to be associated with Allah)?''' And they make into females angels who themselves serve Allah. Did they witness their creation? Their evidence will be recorded, and they will be called to account!<br>		'''Yusuf Ali:''' What! has He taken daughters out of what He himself creates, and granted to you sons for choice? When news is brought to one of them of (the birth of) what he sets up as a likeness to (Allah) Most Gracious, his face darkens, and he is filled with inward grief! '''Is then one brought up among trinkets, and unable to give a clear account in a dispute (to be associated with Allah)?''' And they make into females angels who themselves serve Allah. Did they witness their creation? Their evidence will be recorded, and they will be called to account!<br>
	'''Pickthal:''' Or chooseth He daughters of all that He hath created, and honoureth He you with sons? And if one of them hath tidings of that which he likeneth to the Beneficent One, his countenance becometh black and he is full of inward rage. '''(Liken they then to Allah) that which is bred up in outward show, and in dispute cannot make itself plain?''' And they make the angels, who are the slaves of the Beneficent, females. Did they witness their creation? Their testimony will be recorded and they will be questioned.<br>		'''Pickthal:''' Or chooseth He daughters of all that He hath created, and honoureth He you with sons? And if one of them hath tidings of that which he likeneth to the Beneficent One, his countenance becometh black and he is full of inward rage. '''(Liken they then to Allah) that which is bred up in outward show, and in dispute cannot make itself plain?''' And they make the angels, who are the slaves of the Beneficent, females. Did they witness their creation? Their testimony will be recorded and they will be questioned.<br>
	'''Daryabadi:''' Hath He taken for Himself from whatsoever He hath created daughters, and hath honoured you with sons. And when there is announced Unto any of them the birth of that which he likeneth Unto the Compassionate, his countenance remaineth darkened the whole day and he is wroth inwardly. '''Hath He taken to Himself that which is reared in ornaments, and is in contention not plain?''' And they make the angels who are the bondmen of the Compassionate females. Have they witnessed their creation? Their testimony will be written down, and they will be questioned.}}		'''Daryabadi:''' Hath He taken for Himself from whatsoever He hath created daughters, and hath honoured you with sons. And when there is announced Unto any of them the birth of that which he likeneth Unto the Compassionate, his countenance remaineth darkened the whole day and he is wroth inwardly. '''Hath He taken to Himself that which is reared in ornaments, and is in contention not plain?''' And they make the angels who are the bondmen of the Compassionate females. Have they witnessed their creation? Their testimony will be written down, and they will be questioned.}}

	Some modern Muslim scholars interpret 43:18 as a reference to female pagan idols or that Allah is still referring to the attitude of the pagans towards women.<ref>{{Citation\|archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20120518193855/http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=12885&CATE=88\|url=http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=12885&CATE=88\|title=Tafseer Quran 43:18: does this verse view women negatively?\|author=Shaykh Sohail Hanif\|publisher=SunniPath}}</ref> However, the next verse (43:19) uses the same pattern - a statement of what the pagans believed followed by an interrogative alif (translated "What!") and then Allah's rebuttal ("did they witness their creation?"). Thus it seems more likely that in 43:18 Allah is making what he thinks is a factual counter-argument rather than using what he believes is another false notion of the pagans to contradict their belief in daughters of Allah.

	==Modern revisionary perspectives==		==Modern revisionary perspectives==
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	Still others have, in recent times, suggested that the hadiths about women's mental deficiency, religious deficiency, and majority share in Hell be read sarcastically or satirically. The idea here, it appears, is that Muhammad, being very familiar with the women in his community, would have understood that in saying what he did, he would not be taken seriously. While sarcasm can be infamously challenging to detect in historical texts, particularly where cultural mores and expectations have changed dramatically with time, there is little in the relevant portions of scripture to suggest Muhammad was being anything but serious in his statements. Traditionalists are incensed by the insinuation that Muhammad could have been making light of such a theologically important matter as the inhabitants of hell or that he could have cited the Quran and Sharia to buttress what was only meant as a joke. Non-Muslim participants in this discussion have found this argument similarly incredible.		Still others have, in recent times, suggested that the hadiths about women's mental deficiency, religious deficiency, and majority share in Hell be read sarcastically or satirically. The idea here, it appears, is that Muhammad, being very familiar with the women in his community, would have understood that in saying what he did, he would not be taken seriously. While sarcasm can be infamously challenging to detect in historical texts, particularly where cultural mores and expectations have changed dramatically with time, there is little in the relevant portions of scripture to suggest Muhammad was being anything but serious in his statements. Traditionalists are incensed by the insinuation that Muhammad could have been making light of such a theologically important matter as the inhabitants of hell or that he could have cited the Quran and Sharia to buttress what was only meant as a joke. Non-Muslim participants in this discussion have found this argument similarly incredible.

			=== Reinterpreting Quran 43:18 ===
			Some modern Muslim scholars have shifted to interpreting {{Quran\|43\|18}} as a simple description of pagan attitudes towards women rather than an affirmation of those attitudes.<ref>{{Citation\|archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20120518193855/http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=12885&CATE=88\|url=http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=12885&CATE=88\|title=Tafseer Quran 43:18: does this verse view women negatively?\|author=Shaykh Sohail Hanif\|publisher=SunniPath}}</ref> However, the following verse ({{Quran\|43\|19}}) uses the same interrogative and exclamatory device found earlier in the passage -- a statement of what the pagans believed followed by an ''alif'' (translated "What!") -- and then Allah's rebuttal ("did they witness their creation?") which expresses incredulity and outrage. Thus it seems more likely that in {{Quran\|43\|18}} Allah is making what he thinks is a factual counter-argument (i.e. that women are frivolous and unintelligent) to contradict the pagan belief in the daughters of Allah.

	==Conclusion==		==Conclusion==

IbnPinker: /* Muhammad was joking */

2021-05-19T13:55:40Z

Muhammad was joking

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	Abu Jafar Muhammad bin Jarir al-Tabari (d. 923) is recognized as one of the greatest of all Islamic scholars. He not only wrote one of the most authoritative Tafsirs (commentaries) on the Qur'an but also wrote a history of the world (''tarikh'') from the Islamic worldview. Published in English as ''The History of al-Tabari'' (SUNY Press, NY) in 39 volumes, this work presents world history from the creation account up until al-Tabari's death. In this work, al-Tabari presents the Islamic view on the historical origins and nature of female menstruation.		Abu Jafar Muhammad bin Jarir al-Tabari (d. 923) is recognized as one of the greatest of all Islamic scholars. He not only wrote one of the most authoritative Tafsirs (commentaries) on the Qur'an but also wrote a history of the world (''tarikh'') from the Islamic worldview. Published in English as ''The History of al-Tabari'' (SUNY Press, NY) in 39 volumes, this work presents world history from the creation account up until al-Tabari's death. In this work, al-Tabari presents the Islamic view on the historical origins and nature of female menstruation.

	~~When God~~ created Adam and Eve and placed them in the garden, they were told to not eat of a certain tree. Eve was tempted by Iblis (Satan) to eat of the tree, and she then gave some to Adam to eat also. Adam and Eve ~~try~~ to flee from God because of shame after their private parts were exposed. From this act of disobedience of Eve came God's curse on women.		According the Islamic account of creation found in Tabari's work, when Allah created Adam and Eve and placed them in the garden, they were told to not eat of a certain tree. Eve was tempted by Iblis (Satan) to eat of the tree, and she then gave some to Adam to eat also. Adam and Eve thereafter tried to flee from God because of shame after their private parts were exposed. From this act of disobedience of Eve, it is said, came God's curse on women.

	{{Quote\|{{Tabari\|1\|pp. 280-281}}\|His Lord called out to him: Adam, is it from Me that you are fleeing? Adam replied: No, my Lord, but I feel shame before You. When God asked what had caused his trouble, he replied: Eve, My Lord. Whereupon God said: Now it is My obligation to make her bleed once every month, as she made this tree bleed. '''I also must make her stupid, although I created her intelligent''' ''(halimah),'' and must make her suffer pregnancy. Ibn Zayd continued: '''Were it not for the affliction that affected Eve, the women of this world wound not menstruate, and they would be intelligent~~'''~~ and, when pregnant, give birth easily.}}		{{Quote\|{{Tabari\|1\|pp. 280-281}}\|His Lord called out to him: Adam, is it from Me that you are fleeing? Adam replied: No, my Lord, but I feel shame before You. When God asked what had caused his trouble, he replied: Eve, My Lord. Whereupon God said: Now it is My obligation to make her bleed once every month, as she made this tree bleed. '''I also must make her stupid, although I created her intelligent''' ''(halimah),'' and must make her suffer pregnancy. Ibn Zayd continued: '''Were it not for the affliction that affected Eve, the women of this world wound not menstruate, and they would be intelligent and, when pregnant, give birth easily.'''}}

	In a lecture delivered by Saudi ~~cleric~~ Abd Al-Aziz Al-Fawzan, ~~which aired on Al-Majd TV (June 11, 2007), he responds~~ to the criticism made by 'enemies' of Islam against Muhammad's "women are deficient" statement by confirming the account found in Tabari:		In a lecture delivered by the well-known Saudi Islamic scholar Abd Al-Aziz Al-Fawzan, a response is made to the criticism made by 'enemies' of Islam against Muhammad's "women are deficient" statement by confirming the account found in Tabari:

	{{Quote\|[http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/350/1483.htm Husbands Should Put Up with Their Wives' Slips and Errors, Because the Twisted Nature of Women Stems from Their Very Creation]<BR>MEMRI TV, Clip No. 1483, Broadcast: June 11, 2007\|The Prophet '''Muhammad said about women: "I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you'''. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you," and so on. This hadith and others like it were misunderstood by the ignorant. Corrupt people interpreted it in a way that differs from its original intent. Because of their ignorance, their insolence, their stupidity, and because of their enmity towards Islam and Muslims, they turned this hadith into evidence that Islam disgraces women, diminishing her value, and describes her in inadequate terms.<BR>. . .<BR>		{{Quote\|[http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/350/1483.htm Husbands Should Put Up with Their Wives' Slips and Errors, Because the Twisted Nature of Women Stems from Their Very Creation]<BR>MEMRI TV, Clip No. 1483, Broadcast: June 11, 2007\|The Prophet '''Muhammad said about women: "I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you'''. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you," and so on. This hadith and others like it were misunderstood by the ignorant. Corrupt people interpreted it in a way that differs from its original intent. Because of their ignorance, their insolence, their stupidity, and because of their enmity towards Islam and Muslims, they turned this hadith into evidence that Islam disgraces women, diminishing her value, and describes her in inadequate terms.<BR>. . .<BR>
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	Both husband and wife should satisfy their spouse's natural urges, and should try to gratify their desires, as long as nothing prevents this. This is why the Prophet said: "When a man calls his wife to fulfill his needs, she must go to him, even if she is busy with the oven." Imagine this: There is fire in the oven, and she wants to bake bread. But even if she's busy with this work that cannot be neglected, when he calls her, she must leave the oven and go to her husband. Another hadith says: "She must go to him, even if she is on the back of a camel." She must go to him, even if she is riding.}}		Both husband and wife should satisfy their spouse's natural urges, and should try to gratify their desires, as long as nothing prevents this. This is why the Prophet said: "When a man calls his wife to fulfill his needs, she must go to him, even if she is busy with the oven." Imagine this: There is fire in the oven, and she wants to bake bread. But even if she's busy with this work that cannot be neglected, when he calls her, she must leave the oven and go to her husband. Another hadith says: "She must go to him, even if she is on the back of a camel." She must go to him, even if she is riding.}}

	===~~Qur'an~~ 43:18===		===Quran 43:16-19===
			In {{Quran-range\|43\|16\|19}}, God is recorded responding to what is perceived as the very insulting idea found with Muhammad's contemporaries that God should have daughters rather than sons and that the female should have any share in the divine. In identifying why God's having a daughter should be more insulting than the equally pagan notion that he should have a son, the Quran states that because the Arabs themselves detest having daughters rather than sons, it is unbecoming that they should attribute daughters rather than sons to God. In {{Quran\|43\|18}}, God goes on to specify why people may feel undesirous of daughters, and suggests that it is because they are "brought up in ornaments", "trinkets", or "outward show" and are inept in their argumentation. The Quran does, rather than dissenting from this description of women, suggests that this description constitutes yet another reason why God especially should not have daughters.{{quote \|{{Quran-range\|43\|16\|19}}\|'''Corpus:''' Or has He taken of what, He has created, daughters and He has chosen (for) you sons. And when is given good news, (to) one of them, of what he sets up for the Most Gracious (as) a likeness, becomes his face dark and he (is) filled with grief. '''Then (is one) who is brought up in ornaments and he in the dispute (is) not clear.''' And they made, the Angels, those who themselves (are) slaves (of) the Most Gracious, females. Did they witness their creation? Will be recorded their testimony, and they will be questioned.<br>
			'''Yusuf Ali:''' What! has He taken daughters out of what He himself creates, and granted to you sons for choice? When news is brought to one of them of (the birth of) what he sets up as a likeness to (Allah) Most Gracious, his face darkens, and he is filled with inward grief! '''Is then one brought up among trinkets, and unable to give a clear account in a dispute (to be associated with Allah)?''' And they make into females angels who themselves serve Allah. Did they witness their creation? Their evidence will be recorded, and they will be called to account!<br>
			'''Pickthal:''' Or chooseth He daughters of all that He hath created, and honoureth He you with sons? And if one of them hath tidings of that which he likeneth to the Beneficent One, his countenance becometh black and he is full of inward rage. '''(Liken they then to Allah) that which is bred up in outward show, and in dispute cannot make itself plain?''' And they make the angels, who are the slaves of the Beneficent, females. Did they witness their creation? Their testimony will be recorded and they will be questioned.<br>
			'''Daryabadi:''' Hath He taken for Himself from whatsoever He hath created daughters, and hath honoured you with sons. And when there is announced Unto any of them the birth of that which he likeneth Unto the Compassionate, his countenance remaineth darkened the whole day and he is wroth inwardly. '''Hath He taken to Himself that which is reared in ornaments, and is in contention not plain?''' And they make the angels who are the bondmen of the Compassionate females. Have they witnessed their creation? Their testimony will be written down, and they will be questioned.}}

	~~{{quote \| {{Quran\|43\|18\|}}\|~~		Some modern Muslim scholars interpret 43:18 as a reference to female pagan idols or that Allah is still referring to the attitude of the pagans towards women.<ref>{{Citation\|archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20120518193855/http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=12885&CATE=88\|url=http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=12885&CATE=88\|title=Tafseer Quran 43:18: does this verse view women negatively?\|author=Shaykh Sohail Hanif\|publisher=SunniPath}}</ref> However, the next verse (43:19) uses the same pattern - a statement of what the pagans believed followed by an interrogative alif (translated "What!") and then Allah's rebuttal ("did they witness their creation?"). Thus it seems more likely that in 43:18 Allah is making what he thinks is a factual counter-argument rather than using what he believes is another false notion of the pagans to contradict their belief in daughters of Allah.

	'''Yusuf Ali:''' What! has He taken daughters out of what He himself creates, and granted to you sons for choice? When news is brought to one of them of (the birth of) what he sets up as a likeness to (Allah) Most Gracious, his face darkens, and he is filled with inward grief! '''Is then one brought up among trinkets, and unable to give a clear account in a dispute (to be associated with Allah)?''' And they make into females angels who themselves serve Allah. Did they witness their creation? Their evidence will be recorded, and they will be called to account!


	'''Pickthal:''' Or chooseth He daughters of all that He hath created, and honoureth He you with sons? And if one of them hath tidings of that which he likeneth to the Beneficent One, his countenance becometh black and he is full of inward rage. '''(Liken they then to Allah) that which is bred up in outward show, and in dispute cannot make itself plain?''' And they make the angels, who are the slaves of the Beneficent, females. Did they witness their creation? Their testimony will be recorded and they will be questioned.


	'''Shakir:''' What! has He taken daughters to Himself of what He Himself creates and chosen you to have sons? And when one of them is given news of that of which he sets up as a likeness for the Beneficent Allah, his face becomes black and he is full of rage. '''What! that which is made in ornaments and which in contention is unable to make plain speech!''' And they make the angels-- them who are the servants of the Beneficent Allah-- female (divinities). What! did they witness their creation? Their evidence shall be written down and they shall be questioned.}}

	~~It should be noted that some~~ modern Muslim scholars interpret 43:18 as a reference to female pagan idols or that Allah is still referring to the attitude of the pagans towards women.<ref>[http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=12885&CATE=88 Tafseer Quran 43:18: does this verse view women negatively?]</ref> However, the next verse (43:19) uses the same pattern - a statement of what the pagans believed followed by an interrogative alif (translated "What!") and then Allah's rebuttal ("did they witness their creation?"). Thus it seems more likely that in 43:18 Allah is making what he thinks is a factual counter-argument rather than using what he believes is another false notion of the pagans to contradict their belief in daughters of Allah.

	==Modern revisionary perspectives==		==Modern revisionary perspectives==

IbnPinker: /* Further Evidence */

2021-05-19T13:24:21Z

Further Evidence

Show changes

IbnPinker at 13:17, 19 May 2021

2021-05-19T13:17:20Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:17, 19 May 2021
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	Finally, the very idea of Muhammad making exaggerative rhetorical comments on matters of theology is considered deeply problematic by traditional Islamic theologians for a number of reasons. Foremost amongst these is that in all matters theological, Muhammad's word is taken to be final, as no one else is qualified to comment on these topics. Consequently, if one theological proclamation made by Muhammad is taken as rhetorical, then all his proclamations of this kind are suspect, and this cannot be acceptable to a Sunni orthodoxy which relies on literal readings of all scripture. The problem here emerges that if the comment on Hell's inhabitants was fundamentally fictitious, then, from a theological standpoint, Hell itself could be too.		Finally, the very idea of Muhammad making exaggerative rhetorical comments on matters of theology is considered deeply problematic by traditional Islamic theologians for a number of reasons. Foremost amongst these is that in all matters theological, Muhammad's word is taken to be final, as no one else is qualified to comment on these topics. Consequently, if one theological proclamation made by Muhammad is taken as rhetorical, then all his proclamations of this kind are suspect, and this cannot be acceptable to a Sunni orthodoxy which relies on literal readings of all scripture. The problem here emerges that if the comment on Hell's inhabitants was fundamentally fictitious, then, from a theological standpoint, Hell itself could be too.

	===Deficiency is ~~only about giving~~ financial testimony===		===Deficiency is limited to financial testimony===

	Some others have argued that while Muhammad did say that women were less intelligent than men, he only meant this in the very limited sense of their being less intelligent with respect to financial transactions. Islamic modernists and feminists have added to this reduction of scope the statement's time-bound nature, arguing that not only was the claim limited to women's intelligence with respect to financial dealings, but that that limitation in their intelligence was itself limited to the premodern times where one could expect that women, being home-bound for the most part, had less experience dealing with sums of money. It is important to note that this latter argument presented by modernist and feminist voices in Islam has been wholeheartedly rejected by mainstream Islamic authorities. This is because in declaring the legal disability of women to be time-bound, the entirety of the Sharia is made susceptible to revision under changing circumstances. Sunni orthodoxy is vehemently opposed to such thorough-going modern revisionism, since it deems the Sharia to be eternal, perfect, and unchanging, and thus does not consider this modernist and feminist perspective to have any theological legitimacy.		Some others have argued that while Muhammad did say that women were less intelligent than men, he only meant this in the very limited sense of their being less intelligent with respect to financial transactions. Islamic modernists and feminists have added to this reduction of scope the statement's time-bound nature, arguing that not only was the claim limited to women's intelligence with respect to financial dealings, but that that limitation in their intelligence was itself limited to the premodern times where one could expect that women, being home-bound for the most part, had less experience dealing with sums of money. It is important to note that this latter argument presented by modernist and feminist voices in Islam has been wholeheartedly rejected by mainstream Islamic authorities. This is because in declaring the legal disability of women to be time-bound, the entirety of the Sharia is made susceptible to revision under changing circumstances. Sunni orthodoxy is vehemently opposed to such thorough-going modern revisionism, since it deems the Sharia to be eternal, perfect, and unchanging, and thus does not consider this modernist and feminist perspective to have any theological legitimacy.
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	===Muhammad was joking===		===Muhammad was joking===

	~~{{quote \|\|Muhammad knew~~ that ~~group of~~ women very ~~well~~, ~~and as~~ he ~~would pass by them~~ he would ~~joke around with them~~. ~~When he said that they were deficient~~ in ~~Intelligence~~ and ~~Religion he was joking around. They understood this.}}~~		Still others have, in recent times, suggested that the hadiths about women's mental deficiency, religious deficiency, and majority share in Hell be read sarcastically or satirically. The idea here, it appears, is that Muhammad, being very familiar with the women in his community, would have understood that in saying what he did, he would not be taken seriously. While sarcasm can be infamously challenging to detect in historical texts, particularly where cultural mores and expectations have changed dramatically with time, there is little in the relevant portions of scripture to suggest Muhammad was being anything but serious in his statements. Traditionalists are incensed by the insinuation that Muhammad could have been making light of such a theologically important matter as the inhabitants of hell or that he could have cited the Quran and Sharia to buttress what was only meant as a joke. Non-Muslim participants in this discussion have found this argument similarly incredible.

	~~This is one of the most bizarre claims we've come across regarding these ahadith. When asked for evidence, the claimant is unable to do so. In any case~~, there is ~~absolutely no evidence~~ in the ~~ahadith or elsewhere that this~~ was ~~an '~~in ~~joke' between Muhammad and these women~~.

	Muhammad ~~also backs up these "jokes" with reference to~~ the ~~Qur'an, which~~ he~~'d obviously take very seriously~~ as ~~the alleged prophet~~.

	==Further Evidence==		==Further Evidence==